Guest guest Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 This is my first post here, and thus may I start by saying hello to everyone here. Namaste! Very recently I have been reading the books of Jean Klein. I also started to read Ranjit Maharaj. I have finaly found books of Atmananda Krishna Menon which I have ordered this morning. I am very happy to know that Sri Ananda Wood writes here. I'm in good company. I have also ordered Michael Langford's book: THE MOST DIRECT AND RAPID MEANS TO ETERNAL BLISS. I didn't find any comments on his awareness watching awareness on this group. Ranjit Maharaj often compares awareness devoid of illusion to deep sleep. I realize that awareness is there in deep sleep, because one knows on awakening if he slept well, or that a noise will awaken one from sleep. Consequently, awareness exist in deep sleep. My first question is since in deep sleep, the ego is somewhat " absent " , and pure awareness is thus, more or less, experienced, does the death of the physical body, or the death of the ego while still having a body, results in this deep sleep " state " of awareness. It would then mean that our Self, Awareness is similar to a comatic state. At first glance, not very interesting...no? Sort of awareness unaware of Itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 List Moderators' Note: Welcome to the list and we look forward to our participation. Please do not include the entire message of the previous poster while sending your reply. Cut and paste necessary part as appropriate. Other members are also requested to follow these guidelines. ==================== I just want to add a little to my post. If one is enlightened, a Jnani, he sees through illusion. Thus I do not know if in deep sleep he is also in this " comatic " state or he is fully aware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 advaitin , " nonduel " <nonduel wrote: > Consequently, awareness exist in deep sleep. > > My first question is since in deep sleep, the ego is > somewhat " absent " , and pure awareness is thus, more or less, > experienced, does the death of the physical body, or the death of the > ego while still having a body, results in this deep sleep " state " of > awareness. > > It would then mean that our Self, Awareness is similar to a comatic > state. At first glance, not very interesting...no? > Sort of awareness unaware of Itself. Namaste,IMHO, Deep sleep has an ego dreaming a continous thought of ignorance. A jivanmukta has the awareness of the purified vijnanamayakos and the energy of the sakti...hupa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 advaitin , " nonduel " <nonduel wrote: > > > I just want to add a little to my post. > > If one is enlightened, a Jnani, he sees through illusion. Thus I do > not know if in deep sleep he is also in this " comatic " state or he is > fully aware. Namaste, " nonduel " -ji, You say " he sees through illusion " . Who is this 'he'? Again in the second sentence of yours above, You are saying " he is in the comatic state " or " he is fully aware " . Who are these 'he'? This analysis will lead one to the observation that there is a mixing- up of the pAramArthika and the vyAvahArika. In this connection see post #39104. PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all. advaitin , " hupa_ramdas " <hupa_ram> wrote: Namaste,IMHO, > > Deep sleep has an ego dreaming a continous thought of ignorance. > > A jivanmukta has the awareness of the purified vijnanamayakos and the > energy of the sakti...hupa. Dear Hupa Ramdasji, What you have stated , is it a fact or is it a presumption? If it is a fact, can it be established as a fact based on common universal experience (sArvatrika pUrNAnuBava) ? What have Upanishads and Sri Shankara said in this matter of deep sleep (sushupti) IMHO ,What has been stated goes against the experience of deep sleep. With warm and respectful regards, Sreenivasa Murthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 > Namaste,IMHO, > > Deep sleep has an ego dreaming a continous thought of ignorance. > > A jivanmukta has the awareness of the purified vijnanamayakos and the > energy of the sakti...hupa. > Namaste, In deep sleep, the ego is dreaming thoughts of ignorance. Then this obscures Self same as when the ego is awake? The clouds hiding the sun are there during sleep? A Jivanmukta has pure awareness. Then, and this was my primary question, unless one is Realized, one is still sleeping, dreaming, in ignorance, at the death of the physical body. Similar to a dream, one forgets on awakening. Thus at death, one will forget and still be in ignorance. All the knowledge on liberation that we presently have, will be lost, on awakening from the dream of the present physical life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Namaste, Most of this post is missing (39104) by accident, please read post 39108 I am clumsily using words to understand Self. Because deep sleep has been compared to Reality, nonduality, " Pure Awareness " . My comprehension, consequently, is that it is near Jivanmukta's awareness. If I understand correctly, then a Realized Self is a coma- like " state " similar to deep dreamless sleep. > > Namaste, " nonduel " -ji, > > You say " he sees through illusion " . Who is this 'he'? > > Again in the second sentence of yours above, You are saying " he is in > the comatic state " or " he is fully aware " . Who are these 'he'? > > This analysis will lead one to the observation that there is a mixing- > up of the pAramArthika and the vyAvahArika. > > In this connection see post #39104. > > PraNAms to all advaitins. > profvk > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 advaitin , " nonduel " <nonduel wrote: > > > Namaste, > All the knowledge on liberation that we presently have, will be lost, > on awakening from the dream of the present physical life. > Namaste, As is taught in the Vedanta, within illusion, only tendencies and attributes survive the death of the body. So a new knowledge will quickly be obtained in a new 'life'. There is no knowledge of liberation unless you are liberated..........Hu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Namaste Hu, And so few " reach " liberation....Why is this so difficult? > Namaste, > > As is taught in the Vedanta, within illusion, only tendencies and > attributes survive the death of the body. So a new knowledge will > quickly be obtained in a new 'life'. There is no knowledge of > liberation unless you are liberated..........Hu > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 advaitin , " nonduel " <nonduel wrote: > > Namaste Hu, > > And so few " reach " liberation....Why is this so difficult? > > > > Namaste, > > > > As is taught in the Vedanta, within illusion, only tendencies and > > attributes survive the death of the body. So a new knowledge will > > quickly be obtained in a new 'life'. There is no knowledge of > > liberation unless you are liberated..........Hu Namaste,IMO. Samskaras, and attachments.............Hu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Namaste, In message #39108, Mon Jan 21, Shri Nonduel asked: " I realize that awareness is there in deep sleep, because one knows on awakening if he slept well, or that a noise will awaken one from sleep. Consequently, awareness exist in deep sleep. " My first question is since in deep sleep, the ego is somewhat 'absent', and pure awareness is thus, more or less, experienced, does the death of the physical body, or the death of the ego while still having a body, results in this deep sleep 'state' of awareness. " It would then mean that our Self, Awareness is similar to a comatic state. At first glance, not very interesting...no? " Deep sleep is that state in which all bodily and mental appearances have disappeared. In that state of deep sleep, no objects are found perceived, nor thought or felt, through any body, sense or mind. There is no bodily, nor sensual, nor mental action producing any differing or changing appearances. Then what is the content of deep sleep? What is it that we find in deep sleep, in the absence of all differing and changing appearances? The only thing that can be found is a knowing that stays somehow present, even when all differing objects and all changing actions have disappeared. Deep sleep thus makes us ask questions about a knowing that is independent of all difference and change. In order to know that things are different in space, or that states have changed in the course of time, there must be a knowing which stays present through the different objects that appear in space and the changing states that appear in time. That knowing which stays present must be shared in common, by all differing and changing appearances. In deep sleep, that knowing is found present all alone, illuminated from within, as its own knowing light. In dreams, that same knowing illuminates a succession of imagined appearances, which come and go in mind. In the waking world, that same knowing illuminates all objects and happenings, as they are observed to appear in different parts of space and time. That knowing is what stays the same, while all appearances get changed. It is thus completely unaffected, by all the changes and differences that it illuminates. In itself, it is entirely disinterested in all seeming change and difference. But all the interests that we feel arise from just that knowing. That same knowing is expressed in all our feelings, thoughts and perceptions as our minds and bodies take part in their dreamt and waking worlds. All our interests thus arise from just that disinterested knowing that we can find uncovered in the depth of sleep. So, while we habitually tend to think of deep sleep as 'not very interesting', a sharper questioning of it can be a way of looking for a disinterested source from where we derive all our interests in the physical and mental world. Ananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 advaitin , " Ananda Wood " <awood wrote: > > Namaste, > > In message #39108, Mon Jan 21, Shri Nonduel asked: > > " I realize that awareness is there in deep sleep, because one knows > on awakening if he slept well, or that a noise will awaken one from > sleep. Consequently, awareness exist in deep sleep. > > " My first question is since in deep sleep, the ego is > somewhat 'absent', and pure awareness is thus, more or less, > experienced, does the death of the physical body, or the death of the > ego while still having a body, results in this deep sleep 'state' of > awareness. > > " It would then mean that our Self, Awareness is similar to a comatic > state. At first glance, not very interesting...no? " Namaste. To supplement Ananda-ji's reply to this question, may I draw the attention of 'Non-duel'-ji to the following:? advaitin/message/33434 which is Kanchi Acharya's Discourses: KDAS-70 and advaitin/message/20482 which is on " Sleep, Consciousness and Bliss " . PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Namaste Dear Shri Ananda, QUOTE " " " But all the interests that we feel arise from just that knowing. That same knowing is expressed in all our feelings, thoughts and perceptions as our minds and bodies take part in their dreamt and waking worlds. All our interests thus arise from just that disinterested knowing that we can find uncovered in the depth of sleep. So, while we habitually tend to think of deep sleep as 'not very interesting', a sharper questioning of it can be a way of looking for a disinterested source from where we derive all our interests in the physical and mental world. " " " Thank you for your reply. From these last comments, and please correct me if I am wrong, I understand that " all the interests " sprout from the experience of having a physical body, and from feelings, thoughts and perceptions of the mind. Or " ....the source from here we derive our interests in the physical world... " . This source is Brahman, The I AM. But then your post leaves " me " with a conclusion that without a physical body, no interests. That the potential is latent. Then, touching Self, one experiences joy, bliss. It leaves me with the question as to whether this joy, to be experienced, requires a physical body the mind. Quote: " " " From feelings, thoughts and perceptions of the mind " " " My PraNAms Namaste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Namaste Shri 'nonduel', In message #39238, Fri Jan 25, you say: " Then, touching Self, one experiences joy, bliss. It leaves me with the question as to whether this joy, to be experienced, requires a physical body the mind. " As you say, where self is touched, true happiness is found. But how does one come into touch with oneself? Does one come into touch with oneself in the same way that one body or one mind comes into touch with another body or another mind in the world? Clearly not, for then what one touches is a body or a mind outside, in some physical and mental world. The only way of touching self is to reflect back in. And the reflection must return from all outward-seeming body into an inmost depth of knowing where all perceptions, thoughts and feelings are absorbed by the reflecting mind. Where the reflection is complete, self is at one with self, in its true nature of non-dual happiness. There self knows self alone: as unaffected consciousness, whose very being is to know. It knows by being what it is, as knowing light illuminated from within. That self shines by itself, as its own changeless light. From there are lit all changing acts, through which our minds, our senses and our bodies form all changing and differing appearances of world. When self is falsely identified -- as body, sense and mind -- it wrongly seems to be a 'me'. And this false 'me' believes that its body, and its senses and its mind are required to experience happiness. But this false 'me' and its beliefs are confusingly mistaken. Here happiness becomes confused with bodily and sensual and mental states that are taken to express it. And this confusion makes it seem that happiness can only be found by expressing it outwardly, through some intervening instruments of body, sense or mind. Though happiness is seen expressed in happy states, those happy states aren't happiness. To find the happiness that's thus expressed, attention has to turn back in -- beneath all body, sense and mind -- to underlying truth of self, which is at once the source and goal of all our motivations and our values. It's always there that we return, whenever we fall deep asleep. There happiness itself is found, though we habitually ignore it, as we keep chasing its confused and degraded expressions in our bodily, and sensual and mental activities. Ananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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