Gradual or direct way...

January 23, 2008

Pranams to all

Namaste

In my recent reading of Ranjit Maharaj, enlightenment starts by

firstly, knowledge. That you are HE, right now. All is zero. There is

an acceptance, a belief in the words of the guru. then one " abides "

in this knowledge. Doing and knowing one isn't dong, one isn't the

body...etc

First one accept this knowledge, then one reject this knowledge which

is also zero. One reaches the state of zero and has to " go " beyond

zero.

This is a very brief presentation based on my understanding.

Thus it is direct and also implies some graduality.

In reading the numerous posts here on enlightenment, I am honesly

lost. There is so much " knowledge " discussed that I really do not

where you are getting at.

PLEASE do not take any of this post in an offending way. You have all

my respect, NAMASTE. I am clumsily desperate for enlightenment, and

my old age doesn't permit me to " take my time " , or study all that has

been exposed here in reference to different works mentionned.

These discussions have left me with the impression that it takes a

lot of learning, an enormous accumulation of knowledge. Hence, there

is only a gradual way.

My first impression is that one has to add an enormous amount of

knowledge in the mind, increase the memory of the ego. Which is

paradoxical, in the sense that memory is what keeps the ego going,

and at the same time one has to contribute to memory.

The paradox that " I know nothing " ...

The very little I have read from Atmananda Krishna Menon, is that he

taught the direct way in a similar way as Ranjit Maharij.

I would be very gratefull, to all of you, if you could point to the

essentials, " towards " Enlightenment.

Respectfully,

Namaste

January 23, 2008

Dear Non Duel - PraNams.

Your very question poses a duality in the nondual.

The direct is immediate and direct which is what you

are - there is nothing to know and nothing to see

since you are self evident and self-existent entity.

If you say a way as direct way, then you need to go

gradual first, since you are taking about a way. Only

way is first purification of the mind to make it doubt

free to see that which is without any medium i.e.

immediate and direct.

You are that - if you can see immediately now as you

read this you will have no more questions left and we

will not be able to even hear from you.

If you have more questions left, then it is better to

go gradual way - until you have the vision to see

immediately and directly as the truth that is non-dual

has to be self-evident and immediate.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

--- nonduel <nonduel wrote:

> Pranams to all

> Namaste

>

> In my recent reading of Ranjit Maharaj,

> enlightenment starts by

> firstly, knowledge. That you are HE, right now. All

> is zero. There is

> an acceptance, a belief in the words of the guru.

> then one " abides "

> in this knowledge. Doing and knowing one isn't dong,

> one isn't the

> body...etc

>

> First one accept this knowledge, then one reject

> this knowledge which

> is also zero. One reaches the state of zero and has

> to " go " beyond

> zero.

>

> This is a very brief presentation based on my

> understanding.

>

> Thus it is direct and also implies some graduality.

>

> In reading the numerous posts here on enlightenment,

> I am honesly

> lost. There is so much " knowledge " discussed that I

> really do not

> where you are getting at.

>

> PLEASE do not take any of this post in an offending

> way. You have all

> my respect, NAMASTE. I am clumsily desperate for

> enlightenment, and

> my old age doesn't permit me to " take my time " , or

> study all that has

> been exposed here in reference to different works

> mentionned.

>

> These discussions have left me with the impression

> that it takes a

> lot of learning, an enormous accumulation of

> knowledge. Hence, there

> is only a gradual way.

>

> My first impression is that one has to add an

> enormous amount of

> knowledge in the mind, increase the memory of the

> ego. Which is

> paradoxical, in the sense that memory is what keeps

> the ego going,

> and at the same time one has to contribute to

> memory.

>

> The paradox that " I know nothing " ...

>

> The very little I have read from Atmananda Krishna

> Menon, is that he

> taught the direct way in a similar way as Ranjit

> Maharij.

>

> I would be very gratefull, to all of you, if you

> could point to the

> essentials, " towards " Enlightenment.

>

> Respectfully,

> Namaste

>

January 23, 2008

Namaste Dear Sadananda,

I understand and agree with all you have written. Although I know all

this, obviously I am not enlightened has Ranjit, Atmanada Menon...etc

Clouds all still obscuring the sun. How do one dissolve the clouds?

In a recent reply to one of my post, " Hu " said that if one is not

enlightened at the death of the body, then everything is unremembered,

and one will still be in ignorance...see?

Are you saying that just by knowing, one is enlightened?

Namaste Dear Sadananda

January 23, 2008

Shree Nonduel - My PraNAms.

First my apologies. Second I would not give much to

Hu's comments.

We need to understand what is non-duality really

means.

What I suggest is to open the web pages that Dennis

has - there are several articles on the Introduction

to Vedanta, to have a clear idea what is the goal and

what is the nature of means.

I can answer your question directly but that would

only give you more questions until the whole problem

at hand is clear.

Dennis can give you his web site - to look at the

articles. Study also the series on that analysis of

the mind.

Clouds covering the sun can be removed by the winds-

but those are just example to illustrate some aspects.

Nonduality implies that you are the truth -Since the

very questions implies lack of faith in that statement

- that how come I do not know that? Or how can I be

that, etc. For that only all the nine yards are

required. Self-evident and self-existent entity will

be self-revealing too - like in your example the

clouds cannot cover the sun even though I may say that

I cannot see the sun since sun is covered by the

clouds. I am able to see the clouds in the sun light

only. It is like a blind man - I cannot see since I

am blind - if I ask, can you see you are blind - he

would say - yes I can see that I cannot see. In what

light that I can see that I am blind - that light of

consciousness that I am - that is the non-dual and

that need to be understood. How can it be nondual when

there is a duality all around - that also has to be

understood. Nonduality cannot be something to gain or

something to do but something to understand. To

appreciate that knowledge only the mind has to be free

from preconceived notions - otherwise there will

always be doubts - You need a methodology that removes

the notions without creating new ones in their place.

As you can see in many of the discussions that are

going on they are all centered on that nondual- self

knowledge.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

>

> Are you saying that just by knowing, one is

> enlightened?

>

> Namaste Dear Sadananda

>

January 23, 2008

advaitin , " nonduel " <nonduel wrote:

>

> Namaste Dear Sadananda,

>

> I understand and agree with all you have written. Although I know all

> this, obviously I am not enlightened has Ranjit, Atmanada Menon...etc

>

> Clouds all still obscuring the sun. How do one dissolve the clouds?

>

> In a recent reply to one of my post, " Hu " said that if one is not

> enlightened at the death of the body, then everything is unremembered,

> and one will still be in ignorance...see?

>

> Are you saying that just by knowing, one is enlightened?

Namaste dear writer,

I think that I understand a bit of your

confusion. In the study of Advaita/Vedanta

the word 'knowledge' is used as an English

translation of the Sanskrit word 'jnanam.'

Jnanam means 'self-knowledge,' or if you

wish to say 'enlightenment.'

Therefore this word is not used in its

usual sense to mean an accumulation of

conceptual knowledge, but rather the gain

of the direct knowing of one's true nature.

Ranjit Maharaj was a wonderful saint. I

was privileged to spend time with him prior

to meeting my Vedanta teacher, but Ranjit

Maharaj was not a Vedantin, and the words he used

in his teaching, by his own admission, (and as I often

heard him say), were uniquely his own.

Thus if you try and take Maharaj's words and

apply them to the teachings of Advaita/Vedanta

(which are the teachings discussed in this group)

you will naturally become confused, because his

words and the same words used in the teaching

of Vedanta may not necessarily mean the same

'thing.'

In terms of time, Maharaj himself used to say

'It takes time.' He also used to say, " How much

time it takes to know yourself? In a fraction

of a second you are 'He.' " And he would also

say, " It takes time. " So, as with the words

of all teachers, one needs to know what he

meant or the words seem confusing and contradictory.

The teachings of Advaita/Vedanta work in a way that

is entirely direct, if one is studying with a qualified

teacher who knows how to use the teachings in a way that

directly point to one's own true nature.

Without having access to a qualified teacher, I

I'm not sure how useful Vedanta is because

there are so many instances where confusion can

occur. Any teaching which uses words (which

Vedanta does) needs to have those words very

carefully explained, because the words themselves

actually are pointers to your own nature, the

direct recognition of which is the goal.

In our usual interaction in the world the same

words which Vedanta uses to point to the nature

of one's being might mean something entirely

different. This is why Sanskrit words can

be good, because they actually don't mean anything

other than what the teachings intend them to mean,

but still they need to be properly explained or

confusion can arise.

In terms of 'how much time it takes,'

I used to worry and ask my Vedanta teacher,

" What if I don't gain this knowledge,

(i.e. become 'enlightened') in this birth?

What will happen to me? "

My teacher very kindly replied that Arjuna had

asked the same question of Sri Krishna on the

battlefield, " What if I am killed in this

battle? " Sri Krishna replied that Arjuna

would be reborn in circumstances that would

allow him to again be exposed to the teachings.

My own teacher's guru, Swami Dayananda Saraswati,

a great Vedanta teacher, once said, that the desire

for moksha, for liberation, will 'trump' any other

karmas which might influence a person's next birth.

For a westerner, (which I am), who was not brought

up accepting reincarnation, but rather has accepted

it over time, these ideas were not as comforting

as they might have been for someone whose culture

is infused with that understanding, still I have

found them useful.

I can tell you that in over sixteen years of trying

to 'get it' through various teachings of nonduality,

which purported to be 'direct,' it is only through

the teachings of Vedanta that I have been able to

acquire any clarity at all on the subject.

Although I was privileged to meet several great

saints, of whom Ranjit Maharaj ranks most highly,

I was never able to understand their words. I

appreciated that they 'knew' something, but what

that was and how they knew it remained a mystery

to me.

I think that one really needs to meet and study

with a teacher in person, whose words one can

understand, with whom one has a personal resonance,

and with whom one can clear doubts and ask questions.

A 'direct path' in my understanding is one that

works and shows the student all along the way the

truth that the words are pointing to.

From my own experience, it seems that now days some

people think that 'direct' means that one

goes from being totally confused to being totally

enlightened in an instant, and frankly I don't

think that is possible.

I wish you every success in what is obviously a

very sincere desire to 'know' the truth of

yourself, know in the sense of 'jnanam,' i.e.

direct recognition and therefore liberation.

Pranams,

Durga

January 23, 2008

Namaste Durga-ji.

Your post 39164.

Wonderful clarity. Great advice. Splendidly well-worded. I felt Swami

Dayanandaji himself was talking to us.

You are right we don't have to anticipate or wait for the day

knowledge occurs. We need only know that we will continue to tick in

circumstances conducive to self-knoweldge if we have faith and carry

the light of vedanta burning in our hearts. After all, everything is

a given. If that is understood with an attitude of surrender to the

giver, the rest of the things will be taken care of.

Thanks and praNAms.

Madathil Nair

January 23, 2008

Namaste Durgaji,

I really loved your advice regarding the need for a teacher.

Allow me to introduce myself. I am a beginner, even rawer than non

duel, who started this thread. My name is Sai (please forgive this

monicker indianrediff that I use mainly because of privacy issues on

the Net) and am 45 years old. I am a male, work in IT in the US and am

originally from MUmbai India but have been in the US for over 20

years. I have been fortunate enough to be pointed in the direction of

Swami Paramarthananda, whose name I have seen mentioned on this list

as well. I have been able to lay my hands on some recordings of his

hour long lectures on Tattava Bodha as well as The Bhagavad Gita.

I find myself perplexed that in Tattva Bodha as well as in the Gita,

there is mentioned a *need* for having a teacher. Isn't there a way to

read and use a list like this as well as have some recordings to be

able to 'get it'? I have followed the teachings and can appreciate the

logic used therein. I have also been a largely self-taught person,

while using other books for reference. Is it at all possible to 'get

it' without a teacher? Are there any examples of people that have 'got

it' on their own?

Sai

January 23, 2008

" Gradual or direct way? "

You know something? Enlightenment is death (of the 'small self').

Is there slow death, as well as instant death?

Question answered.

January 24, 2008

Dear Sai, here is a quote from Nisargadatta Maharaj regarding the need for

teacher:

" Your own self is your ultimate teacher. The outer teacher is merely a

milestone. It is only your inner teacher that will walk with you to the goal,

for he is the goal. "

Indian Rediff <indianrediff wrote: