Gradual or direct way...(liberation through God's grace)

[Guest guest]

Dear Sastriji,

 

I would like to first say that I am very happy to even have the

possibility to ask you questions.

 

Throughout the scriptures and in the commentaries, it is said many

times that liberation is gained through God's grace. An aspirant

engaged in sravanam, etc... eventually gets liberation through God's

grace. I accept this to be true because it is universally stated by

the scriptures and by respected Vedantins, but I do not understand

what this means. What is the basis for this grace? It cannot be that

God thinks " this person has done enough sadhana, now I will grant

liberation " because this would make self-knowledge a matter of

purusha-tantra, which is unacceptable to Vedantins. Isn't the grace

we attain through prayer just karma-phala and therefore only relevant

to the attainment of sadhana-chatushtaya but not to the direct

destruction of avidya?

 

Regards,

 

Rishi.

[Guest guest]

Dear Rishi-ji,

You have asked what is the basis for God's grace. This is a very

good question, but as you know, God's ways are inscrutable. We see

good people suffering while atheists and evil-doers thrive. This has

often made people doubt the existence of a merciful, or at least

just, God. The answer given by Vedanta for this is, again, quite

well known. What a person gets in this life depends on his past

karma and not what he is or does now. God gives fruits according to

each one's karma. What a person gets in a particular life is the

fruit of the prArabdha karma which has given him that life. So if a

person has perfected sAdhanachatushTayam in past births and has also

done AtmavichAra he becomes fit for liberation. On such a person God

confers liberation. A question can be asked, " If God gives only what

a person is entitled to according to his own karma, what is the need

for a God to give it? "

This was the view of the pUrvamImAmsakas and so they did not accept

the need for a God. But Bhagavan Ramana says in the first shloka of

upadesha sAram that karma is insentient and only God can give the

results.

So my conclusion is that God confers liberation on the person who

has earned it by his own efforts by acquiring sAdhanachatushTayama

and doing AtmavichAra. Lord Krishna says in gItA 7.14 that only

those who take refuge in him can cross over mAyA. This also shows

that God's grace is necessary.

You have said that this makes self-knowledge purushatantra. Please

permit me to say that this is a wrong understanding of the term

purushatantra. You seem to apply it in the sense of `human effort'.

Human effort is certainly necessary for acquiring

sAdhanachatushTayam and doing vichAra. When it is said that self-

knowledge is not purushatantra, the word `purushatantra' is not used

in the sense of human effort. The meaning of `tantra' here

is `dependent' and `purushatantra' means dependent on the will of a

person. When a person meditates on a linga as shiva it is

called `purushatantra' because it is an act of will. But when a

person looks at a stone and sees it only as a stone, there is no act

of will, but the knowledge depends only on the object and so it is

called vastutantra. It is in this sense that self-knowledge, i.e.,

knowledge of the self as self, is said to be vastutantra, because it

depends on the vastu or object itself and not on one's will. The

following extract from the bhAshya on brahmasutra will make this

clear.

Br.Su.1.1.4.Shankara Bhashya.---

jnaanam (knowledge) is not a mental act, because there is a

difference (between knowledge and meditation). A mental act is seen

to exist where there is an injunction about it, which is independent

of the nature of the thing concerned. dhyaanam (meditation), is a

mental act, because it depends on the will of the person performing

it. For example, to think of a man or woman as fire, as enjoined

in " O Gautama, man is surely fire " (Ch.up.5.7.1) , or in " O

Gautama, woman is surely fire " (Ch.up.5.8.1) is certainly a mental

act, since it arises from an injunction alone. But the idea of fire

with regard to the well-known fire is not dependent on any

injunction or on the will of any man.

(In other words, thinking of one thing as another, like a linga as

Lord Shiva and worshipping it as such, is meditation and it is a

mental act, because it depends on the will of the worshipper. But

looking at an ordinary stone and seeing it as a stone is knowledge

and is not a mental act, because it does not depend on the will of

the person). While meditation depends on the will of a person,

knowledge depends only on the object concerned and on valid means of

knowledge, such as perception. Meditation is therefore described as

purusha-tantra (dependent on the person), while knowledge is called

vastu-tantra (dependent on the object to be known).

I have seen from your posts (though rare) that you are quite

knowledgeable in vedanta and so there may be nothing new n this for

you. But since you have asked a question I have tried to answer it

in detail for the information of others also.

Regards,

S.N.Sastri

 

 

In advaitin , " risrajlam " <rishi.lamichhane

wrote:

>

> Dear Sastriji,

> Throughout the scriptures and in the commentaries, it is said many

> times that liberation is gained through God's grace. An aspirant

> engaged in sravanam, etc... eventually gets liberation through

God's

> grace. I accept this to be true because it is universally stated

by

> the scriptures and by respected Vedantins, but I do not understand

> what this means. What is the basis for this grace? It cannot be

that

> God thinks " this person has done enough sadhana, now I will grant

> liberation " because this would make self-knowledge a matter of

> purusha-tantra, which is unacceptable to Vedantins. Isn't the

grace

> we attain through prayer just karma-phala and therefore only

relevant

> to the attainment of sadhana-chatushtaya but not to the direct

> destruction of avidya?

>

> Regards,

>

> Rishi.

>

[Guest guest]

--- snsastri <sn.sastri wrote:

 

Sastriji - PraNAms.

 

Beautiful explanation. Fantastic.

 

If I may add - god grace is graceful way of saying

that the knowledge comes to you if and when you are

ready, since it is not purushatantra but is vastu

tantra. But it cannot happen until the equipment to

receive the knowledge is conducive for that knowledge.

Yes we cannot will the knowledge. In fact, this is

true for all knowledge, and more so for self-knowledge

since mind with preconceived notions form formidable

obstacle for the desendence of the knowledge. As you

have beautifully explained, the saadhana catuSTaya

sampaati is only preparing the mind conducive to

receive that knowledge. Perceptual knowledge is

considered as direct and immediate and so is the

knowledge of Brahman - Hence it is aparoksha jnaanam -

as Shankara explains in the aparokshaanubhuuti. If the

knowledge does not or did not descend on us, as lot of

posters keep complaining, we know where the problem

is. We can gracefully say that we pray for god’s

grace. In the very prayer we are purifying ourselves

too and preparing ourselves for the knowledge.

 

My praNams to you sir.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

 

A question can be asked, " If God gives only what

> a person is entitled to according to his own karma, what is the

need

> for a God to give it? "

> This was the view of the pUrvamImAmsakas and so they did not accept

> the need for a God. But Bhagavan Ramana says in the first shloka of

> upadesha sAram that karma is insentient and only God can give the

> results.

> So my conclusion is that God confers liberation on the person who

> has earned it by his own efforts by acquiring sAdhanachatushTayama

> and doing AtmavichAra. Lord Krishna says in gItA 7.14 that only

> those who take refuge in him can cross over mAyA. This also shows

> that God's grace is necessary.

 

Dear Shastri-ji,

 

Here is a related excerpt from Prof VK-ji's post on the kanchi

mahAswamigal's discourse on advaita sadhana, which I read again and

again:

 

" This has been said by the Acharya in order that the jnAna-pathfinder

does not get side-tracked into the direction of saguNa-brahman. In

other

words he has wound up the context of Vivekachudamani by saying that by

the sheer power of this constant thought one automatically becomes

Brahma-svarUpa. In actual fact this becoming happens only by the Grace

of God! It is by His Grace that the JivAtma becomes the ParamAtmA! The

Acharya certainly knows this; and knows this quite well. To win over

the

karma-mimamsaka-upholders this is the final BrahmAstra that the

Acharya

used: " No action by itself gives the result; the results are given by

Ishvara " . When that was the case, he would have never d to

the

idea that the very mental action of nidhidhyAsana would automatically

produce the great result of Brahma-nirvANaM.

 

MayA's function of hiding things is called 'tirodhAnaM'. Right now the

real Brahman that we are is *tirohitaM*, that is, hidden from us. The

hidden thing comes out by the dhyAna of ParamAtmA - so says

BrahmasUtra,

but immediately, lest we may think it is an automatic consequence, it

adds, clearing up any confusion, " This hiding as well as the bondage

(caused by the hiding) are both by Ishvara. When we do nidhidhyAsanaM,

the removal of the hiding, the manifestation of the Truth and the

grant

of mokshha, all are again the work of Ishvara " . (III - 2-5). When the

Acharya writes the BhashyaM on this, he says, more explicitly, " This

manifestation will not happen automatically or naturally for all and

sundry. Only to that rare person who makes effort to do intense

nidhidhyAsana it happens by God's Grace " . *na svabhAvata eva

sarveshhAM

jantUnAM* -- 'Revelation' does not happen naturally for everybody.

*Ishvara-prasAdAt samsiddhasya kasyacit eva Avirbhavati* -- 'By God's

Grace It reveals only to that rare person who has the highest

achievement'. "

 

AchAryAs explanation of karma and grace in this series is also lucid.

 

Source: advaitin/message/33648

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Br. Vinayaka.