Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 praNAms Advaitins, One of the fundamental tenets of Vedantic perception of sabda-pramana. This may be translated to vaak. According to a mantra from the famous Asya Vamiya Sukta (Rig Veda. 1.164.45), it is divided into four levels. I would like to know if sabda-pramana is limited by definition to the lowest level of speech (called by some schools as vaikhari). Or, is it the case that other levels of speech (called in some schools as madhyama, pashyanthi and of course para) are also included in it. If it is specificially limited to the lowest level (vaikhari, the usual speech), I would like to know the pramana for that. praNAms to all Advaitins, Ramakrishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 advaitin , " Ramakrishna Upadrasta " <ramakrsn wrote: > > praNAms Advaitins, > > One of the fundamental tenets of Vedantic > perception of sabda-pramana. This may be > translated to vaak. According to a mantra from > the famous Asya Vamiya Sukta (Rig Veda. > 1.164.45), it is divided into four levels. > > I would like to know if sabda-pramana is limited > by definition to the lowest level of speech (called > by some schools as vaikhari). Or, is it the case that > other levels of speech (called in some schools as > madhyama, pashyanthi and of course para) are also > included in it. > > If it is specificially limited to the lowest level > (vaikhari, the usual speech), I would like to know > the pramana for that. Namaste, The following capsule definition may perhaps help: http://www.vmission.org/docs/les/tb1-01.pdf (Sw. Atmananda Sarasvati) " ...6. Sabda : means the words of a knowledgeable person. It is revelation about something by some wise person. Out of all these pramana's, the first five require some perceptual basis, while the sabda operates even without it. We can talk, discuss & come to 'know' about something which is not an object of our knowledge. Thus sabda operates in a very wide spectrum. One should learn to see all these pramana's in action in our day to day life. We use all of them. Thus we will see that the knowledge of Self can take place only by Sabda Pramana. The words of wise people alone is the means of knowledge in this case. That is why the Upanishads have such a reverential place. They are the words of the awakened & enlightened Rishi's. We just have to understand their teachings and this paves the way for the dawn of the knowledge of Self...... " The subject is dealt with more extensively in the commentary on Sri Narayana Guru's Darshana-Mala (by his son Nataraja Guru) at: http://advaitavedanta.co.uk/content/view/35/ Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Ramakrishnaji, Pranam. You said: > I would like to know if sabda-pramana is limited > by definition to the lowest level of speech (called > by some schools as vaikhari). Or, is it the case > that > other levels of speech (called in some schools as > madhyama, pashyanthi and of course para) are also > included in it. > > If it is specificially limited to the lowest level > (vaikhari, the usual speech), I would like to know > the pramana for that. If possible, can you please explain the meaning behind each of these, and how they are different? Thanks. ~Vaibhav. Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online at http://in.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Re: sabda pramana, vak and its levels Namaste Shri Ramakrishna Upadrasta, In reply to your question (message #39390, Wed Feb 6, 2008), some notes are appended below from Nitya Tripta's " Notes on Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda " . Later on this year, I have in mind to present a series of postings on Bhartrihari's " Vakyapadiya " . This question of shabda pramana and levels of language should be taken up there. Ananda ----- 37. How can sound be utilized as a medium of enquiry to reach the Absolute? It has four distinct stages: 1. Vaikhari or gross sound. Here consciousness appears limited by the audible word. It is practised by repetition of a mantra by word of mouth, audible to one's own ears. 2. Madhyama: Here consciousness appears limited by the inaudible word. It is practised by mental repetition of a mantra, inaudibly, in contemplation of an idea. 3. Pashyanti represents that pure idea which is capable of being expressed in different languages, but which remains languageless all along. This limitation is binding only when viewed from the mental plane; and it really takes one to the very brink of the Absolute, or to the Absolute itself when correctly understood. 4. Para is pure Consciousness itself, or myself. Every sound or word, when traced in the above sequence, leads to the Reality, or the 'I'- principle.... ----- 286. How to rise from the gross to the Absolute through any sense organ? (e.g. the hearing organ) An 'idea' is conveyed to us by one or more words in any language. The same 'idea' is also capable of being conveyed to another in another language. Thus, the idea is the same, though its upadhis or languages are different. Therefore, this 'idea by itself' has no language of its own, and the language does not go into the make of the idea. It only expresses itself in the gross or the subtle, through any language. Unexpressed as it is, it is languageless. All ideas are similarly reducible to the languageless idea. As languageless ideas, there is nothing to distinguish between each other, except the samskara that you started the enquiry each time from a particular idea. Therefore, languageless ideas cannot be many but only one. Transcending the samskara regarding the origin of this enquiry, the languageless idea stands as the ultimate Reality. The following are the definite stages (from left to right), in the progress from the gross to the Absolute. Vaikhari Madhyama Pashyanti Para Gross Subtle Witness Absolute Gross idea Subtle idea Languageless idea Absolute Gross mantra Subtle mantra Essence of mantra Absolute Gross form Subtle form Form generic Absolute .... ... ... ... The third and the last stages are one and the same, but for the samskara that the third has some distant relationship with the preceding two stages. ----- 413. Through sound to the Ultimate The four stages of progression to the Ultimate explained in relation to the path of sound can be applied to any sphere of life. For example: 1. Vaikhari can very well be represented by every perceivable expression as body. 2. Madhyama can very well be represented by every expression as mind (inaudible) still with language. 3. Pashyanti can very well be represented by the languageless, apparently limited 'I' or witness. 4. Para can very well be represented by the real Self or Atma beyond even the limitation of oneness or beyond even the apparently limited 'I'. Atma expresses itself in two realms, namely the mind and the body. The Sage rests at the right end, Atma, and sees the other two as mere illusions upon the Atma itself. But the ordinary man remains at the wrong end, the body, attributing complete reality to its form and name, and considering the mind and Atma as relatively subtle (less real). Thus the right perspective assumed by the Sage is reversed completely by the ordinary man. To get to perfection the layman has therefore to reverse his perspective likewise. Sage's perspective Atma alone real Mind and body unreal Ordinary man's Body and mind Atma unreal perspective both real Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Re: sabda pramana, vak and its levels Namaste Shri Ramakrishna Upadrasta, In further reply to your question (message #39390, Wed Feb 6, 2008), you may also refer to message #24536, at the following URL: advaitin/messages/24536 Ananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hari Om~ Shri Ananda ji, Om nama PranavArtAya tattva vAche parAtmane | Sabda brahma vivartaika BijAyAksara mUrtaya || Very Many thanks for your beautiful note on the various levels of Vak. I would like to identify myself as a SabdAdvaitin as I am inclined to the Doctrine of Sonic Theology - The Sabda tattva and the Doctrine of Sabda Brahman. Now on the note you have given I would like to make few observations. First Bhartrhari as a SabdAdvaitin (Vedantin) emphasizes on establishing the Nada Brahman (Sabda Brahman) which underlies all gross sonic existence in the ephemeral world. Brahma PrApti is to recognize (pratyabhijna) the original Sabda tattva setting aside the abhidAna abhideya sambandas of sAmanya Sabda of multifarious Nama- rupAs (forms of names not names and forms). The ultimate Reality both to Bhartrhari and MandanAcarya is the Sphota tattva, realizing which we become one with the OM kAra Nada the Pranava Sabda which is NirvisEsa. The word Sphota or Sabda is generally understood in two classifications. 1) Varna and Vakya 2) Dvani and Varna. As a vAkya sphota vAdin (as Bhartrhari teaches), I would like to present a small note on the theory of Vac utpatti. There are some important noteworthy terms that are pivotal to understand SabdAdvaita paribhAsa. Utpatti - production and abhivyakti - manifestation. Sabda according to Bhartrhari is eternal while nAma is unreal. nAma is subjected to utpatti and Sabda is eternal and thus merely manifests. The production of any dvani or speech happens according to the following process. According to Bhartrhari, the unmanifested Asara Sabda in association with the mind the medium of resonance transforms itself to Vac - audible sound. It is said that PranavAyu is the nimitta kArana for the audible sound - the Vac. The articulation and materialisation of this audible sound is due to the Sabda PrakAsa that the Tejas (energy) draws in the area of throat. The heat energy from the navel operates in the area of throat for the manifestation of Sabda Tattva. Tantra Sastra - another form of SabdAdvaita, as I would like to remark, makes even more precise explanation for the Sabda Tattva. This Vac is categorized in three levels in SabdAdvaita. vide, Vaikhari, Madhyama and Pashyanti. As Anand ji pointed out the Vaikhari denotes the gross sound, Madhyama the ahampadarta - contemplative 'I' domain and lastly the Pashyanti - the Saksi which is OM kAra - the witness of all waves of Sound. Anand ji, you have pointed out the fourth level called 'Para' which Bhartrhari does not endorse. 'Para' category is a special term coined by the KevlAdvaitins to represent the 'Turiya' state - caturta pAda - as Vidyaranya discussed in Anubhuti Prakasa. Such a 'Para' is not generally d to by SabdAdvaita while we simply say 'Para Pashyanti Rupa' - where Para and Pashyanti are not two different levels of Realities but one only. Bhartrhari no where in his work - Vakyapadiya mentions Para instead regards Pashyanti alone as the Ultimate Transcendental Reality. With Narayana Smrthi, Devanathan.J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 advaitin , " Ananda Wood " <awood wrote: > In further reply to your question (message #39390, Wed Feb 6, 2008), > you may also refer to message #24536, at the following URL: > advaitin/messages/24536 praNAms Shri Anadaji, Thank you for the beautiful write up and the past links. Shri Devanathanji, Thanks for the insights. Shri Vaibhavji, I think Anadaji's links and Shri Devanathanji's post may have provided enough material to answer your questions. praNAms to all Advaitins, Ramakrishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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