HOW FAR DOES VEDANTASPEAK TAKE US? - A DEBATE.

[Guest guest]

I. THE PROBLEM:

 

There is an undeniable problem in our life, in the very world where

you and I live. Yes, it is the problem that pertains to the body

and its upkeep. It is not hypothetical. It is not in

my `consciousness'. It is not in a distant far away place. We see

it all around. We also suffer and or experience it.

 

It is the Problem of hunger, chronic incurable disease, malnutrition,

rape, molestation, children to be taken care, not even drinking

water. The lean frail thin man has to hammer hard granite rocks

under open very hot sun on dusty shelterless hill slopes to eke out

a living. Heinous cruel creatures and violent aggressors, for their

own survival, exploit the gullible innocents who just manage to exist

under appalling destitution. This is not theory. One can see it,

feel it and also live it (without treating the sufferer as a distant

person as if it is your own body) to understand the gravity of the

issue.

 

 

II. VEDANTASPEAK:

 

There are hair-splitting experts who provide mouthfuls of tongue-

twisting word soup of pedantic didactical exegesis about substantive

unchanging substratum and or impart axiological and epistemic non-

processes explicating the pedagogy of extirpating the illusory

sublatable phenomenal world inorder to realize the noumenal Truth

through negation of surjective animadvertence.

 

Whatever it means. That's the Vedantaspeak.

 

Okay, in simple words, the problem is not for `I'.

 

One does not have to do anything to the `me' inside or outside the

body as `I' is not the sufferer. Other than `Awareness' everywhere,

everything else is unreal, imaginary, non-existent.

 

But the problem does not evaporate. It is real for the body. One

may call the problematic world `vyavaharika', `mithya', illusory or

by any other descriptor.

 

The names do not solve the body pain or the misery of the sufferer,

alleviate his/her hunger, redeem the struggle one has to go through

for simple existence and provide a little comfort to the aching

aging helpless bones.

 

 

III. BASIC INFORMATION:

 

1. One thing that glaringly stands out on reading the major

Upanishads is the word `death' giving the impression that their

authors were primarily concerned with its mitigation.

 

2. Many of the practices and behaviors exhorted in the mantras

usually have a promise of being rewarded by immortality (=

conquering death).

 

3. An important prayer in the Upanishad is " Mrityorma amritam

gamaya " meaning `Lead me from death to immortality' (Brihadaranyaka

Upanishad). We cannot be foolhardy to think that the Upanishadkar

(author of Upanishad) was not aware of the attributes of Brahman, say

as narrated by Vyasa:

 

" Na jayate mriyate va kadachit na ayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah

Ajonityah saswatah ayam purano na hanyate, hanyamane sarire. "

-- Bhagavad-Gita Verse 20, Chapter II.

 

And this point is repeated for emphasis in verses 21 to 24.

 

When it is known that the indweller (Saririnah), Atma is without

birth or death, the objective of the prayer for immortality must have

been for the sake of the body (sarirah).

 

It is more than obvious that the sages could not hand down any mantra

to the common man to successfully conquer death through prayer. They

did the next best thing. They discovered an `Awareness'. We shall

discuss this a little later.

 

 

4. Considerable part of Vedanta emanates from an assessment of

the three states (avastha trayam) of wakeful, dream and deep sleep

worlds. Most Upanishads cite the analogy of dream world to establish

the illusory `Mithya' nature of the wakeful world. A mystique and

mystery have often been associated with dreams. Many myths were also

woven round sleep and dream.

 

It is argued that the visible objective world is impermanent because

it disappears in the deep sleep state. The wakeful world is equated

to dreams in ephemerality. Therefore, the Vedantins looked for that

which existed in all the three states and held that to be the

permanent thing.

 

5. A generalist-review of a large number of papers published

till about January 2008 on sleep and dream research leads one to the

following sum up (article to appear in a forthcoming issue of

Consecration, 2008):

 

" Thus if all parts of the brain are active, it is wakeful state. If

the sensory cortex is at rest with other parts working, it is

dreaming; if, in addition one or another part malfunctions, it is

OBE, NDE etc. If only a few isolated nodes in the brain function, it

is deep sleep. If the brain is totally inactive, it is death! Brain

cells generate a large amount of waste in wakeful state. During deep

sleep this garbage is removed and the cells get rejuvenated. You

wake up refreshed and your brain is ready to protect you for another

day. "

 

It can be seen from the above that the neural pulsing is the one that

exists continuously in all the three states of wakeful, dream and

deep sleep worlds. Though Science, as yet, does not know how the

neuronal pulsing generates awareness, it is quite clear that a

conscious brain does have pulsing neurons.

 

6. More importantly, I hope it is clear that :

 

i) The world `out there' does not disappear during deep sleep

(which is equated to Nirvikalpa samadhi). The non-apprehension is

because of the fact that only isolated and limited sets of neuronal

networks in the brain function in this state. The parts of the brain

that are capable of detecting the outside world are at rest and not

active when we go to sleep. Hence we do not apprehend the world out

there.

 

ii) Because the wakeful world is not apprehended during sleep,

it is described as ephemeral and impermanent. It is equated to the

dream state. What is identified to be constantly present in all the

three states is said to be `consciousness' and is described

as `permanent.'

 

iii) What is really present in all the three states is neuronal

pulsing (electrical activity).

 

Is this what the ancient sages were hinting at?

 

iv) We can get a clue from the following verse:

 

" Abhavascha rathadeeanaam sruyate nyayapurvakam

Vaithatyam tena vai praptam swapna aahuh prakasitam "

 

-- Verse 3, Chapter II, Gaudapada Karika on Mandukya Upanishad.

Sankara's Commentary says : " For this reason also the objects

perceived to exist in dream are illusory. For, the absence of

chariots etc. (perceived in dream) is stated by Sruti, in such

passage as, `There exists neither charitot etc.', its assertion being

based on reason. In the opinion of the wised, i.e., the knowers of

Brahman, the illusoriness (of the dream objects) has been established

on the ground of their being perceived within the contracted space in

the body. The Sruti only reiterates it in order to establish the

self-luminosity (of Atman) in dream.

 

Commenting on the word `self-luminosity', Swami Nikhilananda says (p:

90, The Mandukya Upanishad with Gaudapa's Karika and Sankara's

Commentary, Advaita Ashrama, Calcutta, 1995) :

 

" Compare Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 4.3.14. Mere examination of the

waking experiences cannot prove that Atman is self-luminous. For, it

may be contended that various activities, associated with the waking

state, are due to the functioning of the sense organs under the

influence, as Sruti says, of the various luminous deities as the sun,

the fire etc. But in sleep various activities are experienced by the

dreamer and these activities, in the absence of the functioning of

the sense-organs, are due to the self-luminosity of Atman. "

The above analysis of Swami Nikhilananda to explain the experiencing

of dream objects in terms of self- luminosity of Atman, can perhaps

be related to neural firing (or the very life-force itself because

neural activity stops when life ends).

 

 

IV. AWARENESS:

 

It is not too difficult to realize that there lies an object-neutral

perceiving capability in each of us. One has to examine carefully

and analytically one's own cognition and perception, going beyond

words and their symbology. No individual objects will be recognized,

and a no nothingness is experienced. One can perhaps stay in that

neutral `Awareness' where no objective fragmented world is cognized.

 

You may snuggle into a comfy and giggle at all the squiggles a la

David Brockman while the body wriggles in suffering. For he says, " A

body seems to come up yes; feelings, sensations. SO does the room,

the keyboard and an image in the mirror of someone typing called

David. Am afraid I don't see anyone; including David. Just form. "

 

But let us be honest. David does not evaporate in to thin air. He

is very much there and so are his needs. He still has to feed

himself (and dependents?). He needs 40 bucks per hour for talking.

To pay 40 dollars to him, you have to earn at least $ 80, so that you

can feed yourself (after all you have to be alive to talk to him!)

and pay $ 40 to him. And that means you have to exploit some

gullible persons and depend on their life to lead your life etc.

There starts the whole rigmarole of self-survival tactics (which

easily will take any shape). And misery ensues!

 

 

V. HOW MANY ARE BENEFITED BY VEDANTA?

 

1. Vyasa in " Bhagavad Gita " Verse 3, Chapter VII: " Perhaps one

in thousands of men strives for perfection; and one perchance, even

among those striving may know me really. "

 

Thus the chance of realizing the Supreme is much less than one in a

million.

 

2. Sankara in " Vivekachudamani " Verse 2: " ….but liberation by

persistence in the state of the unity of Brahman and self is not to

be achieved except by the meritorious deeds of hundreds of thousands

of lives. "

 

This suggests that Realization is a very rare event to happen.

 

3. Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj in " I am That " , Dialog 43, p "

154 : " …but the seekers are few, and among those few, those who are

ready are very rare. "

 

This indicates that who obtain realization to be extremely rare.

 

4. Prof. S. Sobottka in " A Course in Consciousness " Section

17.6 The Rarity of Enlightenment , p: 184 : [based on the Gita

verse quoted above], " it would mean there are fewer than a thousand

truly enlightened beings in the U.S. From my own observations and

experience, I would be surprised if the actual number exceeded that. "

 

According to this guesstimate, it is less than a thousand out of

about 300 million..

 

5. Ramesh Balsekar in " Your Head in the Tiger's Mouth " (quoted

by Sobottka ibid, p: 184) : " Whether you are a seeker or not is not

your choice. Whether enlightenment happens in that body-mind organism

or not is also not your choice. "

 

This statement rules out any possibility of estimation.

 

 

 

VI. SOCIAL BENEFACTORS:

 

Realizing that human misery does not disappear by any Vedanta-like

speak, great saints worked for social benefit. some Israelis hold

that Jesus Christ was such a social benefactor. There are many

famous examples from India: Yogananda, Vivekananda, Aurabindo,

Dayanada Saraswati, Satya Sai Baba and innumerable others.

Vivekananda is also quoted to have said that he would take birth any

number of times in order to alleviate the suffering of the people

rather than get his own salvation!

 

VII. WHERE LIES THE HOPE?

 

Vedanta has been in existence at least for the last 5,000 years. Its

interpretation mainly comprises mind and methods of transcending the

mind. Perhaps it will stay so unchanged in the next 5,000 years in

its argot and lingo. Its practice could perhaps empower a few

persons.

 

Compare it with the developments in science and what it can do in the

coming five millennia. The possibilities are truly mind-boggling.

Human beings are already empowered in remote auditioning (radio,

telephone), remote viewing (television, mobile phones) and real time

information transfers. Genetic engineering has been able to improve

the health and food-grain production. Suppose we understand the

human mind in terms of unbiased neuroscientific studies applicable to

any and every man on the street. Some of the futuristic

possibilities / opportunities are:

 

i) Thought controlled Home appliances.

j) Manufacture of required energy resources directly from

Sunlight by wearing a chlorophyll patch doing away with dependence on

food and agriculture.

k) Total recasting of work culture and leisure management.

l) Designer babies.

m) Leisure travel to nearby planets and exoplanets.

n) Aerosol sprays of friendship-improving neurotransmitters to

dissipate away group tensions.

o) Surgery and repair of bodily organs by swallowing a capsule

of nanosurgical team of robots and instruments.

p) Seeding and nurture of extra-solar planets with human beings.

q) And many more. One has to just one's imagination run wild!

 

 

There is hope (a salvation?) in science. This does not mean we deify

science or reify `consciousness.' We have to search for a more

realistic large scale applicator to alleviate misery in the world and

make available at common man level.

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramesamji,

 

If there were to be a war between the wrong two countries, everyone

in the world will be dead in a few minutes. Is this progress?

 

Regards,

 

Rishi.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " ramesam " <ramesam wrote:

 

> Compare it with the developments in science and what it can do in the

> coming five millennia. The possibilities are truly mind-boggling.

> Human beings are already empowered in remote auditioning (radio,

> telephone), remote viewing (television, mobile phones) and real time

> information transfers. Genetic engineering has been able to improve

> the health and food-grain production. Suppose we understand the

> human mind in terms of unbiased neuroscientific studies applicable to

> any and every man on the street. Some of the futuristic

> possibilities / opportunities are:

>

> i) Thought controlled Home appliances.

> j) Manufacture of required energy resources directly from

> Sunlight by wearing a chlorophyll patch doing away with dependence on

> food and agriculture.

> k) Total recasting of work culture and leisure management.

> l) Designer babies.

> m) Leisure travel to nearby planets and exoplanets.

> n) Aerosol sprays of friendship-improving neurotransmitters to

> dissipate away group tensions.

> o) Surgery and repair of bodily organs by swallowing a capsule

> of nanosurgical team of robots and instruments.

> p) Seeding and nurture of extra-solar planets with human beings.

> q) And many more. One has to just one's imagination run wild!

>

 

 

Namaskarams Ramesamji,

 

Interesting post.

 

But like in the philosophy departments, where people discuss all sorts

of " dry " stuff, like in the Physics departments where people are

talking about what happened to which star how many light-years away,

and in the Mathematics departments where they discuss for centuries

whether some gadget is curved up or down,

 

and the scientific countries keep paying zillions of dollars to fund

such enquiry, in the name of human or scientific progress,

notwithstanding the immediate irrelevance of such pursuits to

alleviate suffering,

 

so also we have forums like this catering to the VedantaSpeak.

 

As for what has Vedanta done for us, it reminds me of a story of Swami

Vivekananda asking his father " What have you done for me? " His father

replied: " Go look in the mirror !! "

 

 

(These are a couple of ways of thinking on this topic, but does not do

full justice to your post. No time for that, hope others can give

viewpoints.)

 

thollmelukaalkizhu

[Guest guest]

hariH OM! ramesam-ji,

 

great post. the right questions asked are often the most precious

commodity in the world of pragmatic philosophy.

 

a few observations...

 

first of all, the world is not utterly and pointblank, an illusion.

it is maya, and according to sankara, real yet not real, where he

finally refers to it as being indescribable. (i'm not sure why this

point is continuously overlooked or ignored. i guess the prevailing

opinion that the world is simply unreal is so engrained in the

cultural awareness in the land of bharat, and rayed out from there

enveloping the rest of the globe, it overrides even sruti! (see 2nd

paragraph below for the latter..)

 

bhagavan ramana reiterates this. [paraphrasing..i posted this quote

probably a dozen times over the years]: " The world is not considered

unreal to vedantins. That is a mistake. It is unreal as world, yet

real as the Self (brahman's projection...brahman's lila). "

 

otherwise it would be a violation of the mahavakya, " all this is

brahman. "

 

secondly, yes, there are only a relative few who are evolved enough

to benefit from " vedantaspeak, " leading to moksha. (it's interesting

that i guestimated about 1,000 in the entire world to be jnanis. not

just in the USA; where probably the most are located however because

of the need to balance the USA's disproportionate darkness, due to

being the nation with the greatest karmic debt.)

 

third, theosophists refer to this world as " the planet of endless

sorrows. " souls incarnate here, and on planets like it (and there

are supposedly much darker planets out there!), if they want to

accelerate their soul's development. their soul's wisdom knows that

they need to have sufficient depth of character to handle such

magnitude of oppressive forces. it's like the marine boot camp of

worlds to be living in. suffering and its attending assault on the

senses (the ugliness factor) can be extremely intense here,

obviously.

 

and lastly, vedanta and other effective metaphysical approaches that

are responsible for helping transmit enlightenment to only a relative

few, represent a hyper-critical number of what might be

called " lightworkers, " who act as kind of like anchors of spiritual

light which, again, helps in counterbalancing the prevailing dark

forces in our world. it's my understanding that their most important

work and impact on humanity is done on the psychic plane. and their

work not only targets the perverse and abhorent behaviours of

different individuals, it also targets an even greater prevalence of

what appears to be comparatively harmless ignorance in general, which

however is even *more* tamasic, such as boredom and apathy.

 

namaste,

frank

 

 

_________________

 

advaitin , " ramesam " <ramesam wrote:

>

> I. THE PROBLEM:

>

> There is an undeniable problem in our life, in the very world where

> you and I live. Yes, it is the problem that pertains to the body

> and its upkeep. It is not hypothetical. It is not in

> my `consciousness'. It is not in a distant far away place. We see

> it all around. We also suffer and or experience it.

>

> It is the Problem of hunger, chronic incurable disease,

malnutrition,

> rape, molestation, children to be taken care, not even drinking

> water. The lean frail thin man has to hammer hard granite rocks

> under open very hot sun on dusty shelterless hill slopes to eke

out

> a living. Heinous cruel creatures and violent aggressors, for

their

> own survival, exploit the gullible innocents who just manage to

exist

> under appalling destitution. This is not theory. One can see it,

> feel it and also live it (without treating the sufferer as a

distant

> person as if it is your own body) to understand the gravity of the

> issue.

>

>

 

> VII. WHERE LIES THE HOPE?

>

> Vedanta has been in existence at least for the last 5,000 years.

Its

> interpretation mainly comprises mind and methods of transcending

the

> mind. Perhaps it will stay so unchanged in the next 5,000 years in

> its argot and lingo. Its practice could perhaps empower a few

> persons.

[Guest guest]

Hello ramesam sir

 

I will attempt to comment on your post on installments, because it

is a very long post. I hope we will discuss together each part alone

untill it is exhausted and then move to the next part.

 

In advaitin , " ramesam " <ramesam wrote:

>

> I. THE PROBLEM:

>

> There is an undeniable problem in our life, in the very world

where

> you and I live. Yes, it is the problem that pertains to the body

> and its upkeep. It is not hypothetical. It is not in

> my `consciousness'. It is not in a distant far away place. We

see

> it all around. We also suffer and or experience it.

>

> It is the Problem of hunger, chronic incurable disease,

malnutrition,

> rape, molestation, children to be taken care, not even drinking

> water. The lean frail thin man has to hammer hard granite rocks

> under open very hot sun on dusty shelterless hill slopes to eke

out

> a living. Heinous cruel creatures and violent aggressors, for

their

> own survival, exploit the gullible innocents who just manage to

exist

> under appalling destitution. This is not theory. One can see it,

> feel it and also live it (without treating the sufferer as a

distant

> person as if it is your own body) to understand the gravity of the

> issue.

 

hsin: Empathy affirms all what you say, in the same time YOU are

being PROTECTED from that, YOU are being GUARDED, Why? Are you

unique or distinguished in any particular way from humans that

suffer? This is an important question for each one of us to answer.

 

If the answer is YES, then you have already claimed all the GRACES

that showered on YOU and transformed them to become your merits and

your virtues; without you –actually- deserving one atom of these

Graces –that is, if YOU analyze it objectively.

 

If the answer is No –which is truly the case-, then there are two

alternatives not three, either YOU are being Guarded by " SOMETHING "

or it is a matter of chance and hence you live in a chaotic

experience Where anything can happen to anyone at any time.

 

From OBSERVING life Experiences, there is a Wisdom or a Law

governing Life, not an outside controller, no, a controlling WISDOM

from within life itself.

 

If You are Guarded by " something " , You have to search and know and

pay your respects for what Guarded You. HERE VEDANTA Or ANY

RELIGION, JUDAISIM, CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, ZEN, TAO etc… COMES INTO

EFFECT.

 

If YOU are GUARDED, then why all these horrors and agonies occur

around YOU?

There must be a message addressed to all humans, but unfortunately

only YOU received the message. What about the rest of humans who did

not understand the message?

The " Something " that sent the message, will only communicate with

the human who heard and paid heed to the message, while the rest of

humans are left alone to their own minds to guide them and YOU will

see the result of this. The result is the suffering you are speaking

about.

That is How life of man is a journey, where you left home depended

on your mind, forgot all about home, and your mind lead you to the

jungle, then you were reminded of home and discarded depending on

your mind -through religion or vedanta or Tao- due to the misery and

fears it lead you in. As soon as you no longer depend on your mind

to guide you, YOU will be GUIDED HOME. This is the Cycle or the

Wheel of life. You can do it in one life or might take a million

lives.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " putranm " <putranm wrote:

 

> Namaskarams Ramesamji,

>

> Interesting post.

>

 

In case you are tamil, here is a youtube from Sri Jaggi Vasudev where

he answers a similar question:

 

 

Besides that, you can think of Vedanta as a basic tool for the

psychological well-being of a person. We should impart this basic

knowledge to the general people, atleast as many Hindus as possible.

The British managed to get us urban Indians talking in English, and we

are still learning new reasons to worship them. So it is quite

possible to get the Vedanta-education part done widescale. Our idea is

" The kid is born in a reasonable family. He is taught English,

Computer, Science at school. Here is our basic knowledge, why can't

this also be made part of his knowledge? " Are people raising campaigns

for this purpose?

 

Vedanta will allow a person to withstand any mind-issues. It won't

feed your stomach, as Jaggi Vasudev says, but if your kid adheres to

Vedanta (which gives proper perspective on self), he/she will be safe

from the mental asylums (save VedantaSpeak:-).

 

thollmelukaalkizhu