Guest guest Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 Shyam-ji wrote: the word " flower " assume a " attributive reality " - it is a mithya reality no doubt - the satyam aspect of the " flower " is nothing but awareness alone. But an avidya-steeped " as though " entity, the subject, " as though " distinct from this object, now " as though " projects the word " flower " onto it, and takes the nama-roopa flower as the sole reality of that object. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Namaste Shyam-ji, And even so the nama-roopa 'reality' is not arbitrarily constructed on a human whim or on the basis of cultural conditioning. Senses are in things because it is constituted out of the elements which have senses embedded in them. Senses as elements are there when no one actually sensing that particular thing. Sankara says in Brh.Up.II.iv.12: " True, but the Sruti considers the organs to be of the same category as the objects, not of a different category " . Best Wishes, Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > > --- putranm <putranm wrote: > > > Please note how the notion of " independent existence apart from you " > > differs in the two situations. The you itself is a construct due to > > maya; but within maya's realm, does it or not have its " eternal " place? > > Putranmji - PraNAms > > If you consider you as jiiva then world is independent of you and Isware is up there in > the sky! > > Once you turn to Vedanta, Vedanta is darpaNam - a mirror that shows what you really are > in comparison that you think you are. > > The world depends on you - the you corresponds not to jiiva but to the substantive > consciousness that you are. That is the turiiyam. > > Hence one is jiiva's vision and the other is Vedantic vision of you. > > Reference of YOU has to be clear - the same in the statemetn tat tvam asi - you are that. > > > vyavahaara deals with duality - but duality taken as reality is delution. Duality taken > as apparent is jnaanam. Duality remains as long as upaadhiis are there. But reality > associated to duality changes once knowledge that I am in everything and everything is in > me - that knowledge sinks in. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > Sadaji, thanks for the reply. I will gather the info and ponder more. duality taken as reality is delusion; admitted. Whether the upadhis adhere to a certain objective order or pattern independent of subject or association of subject was my question. Does that order include this mind-body state announcing itself as jiva, and an appearance of " world " of its own features? A movie has no real people, no doubt. BUT the movie has a definite set of colours playing about, which the ignorant take to be real people. The delusion is with regard to the individualizing of the appearing-colours and forgetting that the Screen is the abiding reality. Sometimes it appears that we are saying there is no definiteness to the play of colours either. thollmelukaalkizhu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 --- putranm <putranm wrote: > > duality taken as reality is delusion; admitted. Whether the upadhis > adhere to a certain objective order or pattern independent of subject > or association of subject was my question. Does that order include > this mind-body state announcing itself as jiva, and an appearance of > " world " of its own features? Yes there is an order - the order is established from Vedantic point at two levels - one at individual level and the other at collective level - the collective level changes as the collection enlarges. At individual level the order of BMI is established by Karma - predominately by Prarabda karma - individual vaasanaas dictate the order of the BMI as well as any disorders - one leg or no legs or any defects etc part of karma determines that. Becuase of order in the human body, medical science is able to analyse and codify. From digestion to circulation all physiological functions takes place due to set order. A biologist able to classify different families etc because of order. At collective level - starting from a family - the combined vaasanaas of twos (husband and wife) or fours (parents and children) etc determines their collective order - why particular wife or husband or child etc are due to order of Karma called samaShTi karma. Similarly at the group, country, nation etc. The total vaasanaas of all being put together dictate the total order in the universe - cause for the creation. But human with will has some choice in action. Animals cannot change the order they adopt to the order. But human can influence because he is given some will - what is called puruShaartha. What you have is Prarabda and what you do with what you have is puruShaartha - that determines future order. Krishna says a yoga braShTa - the one who could not make it in this life, will be borne in a family conducive for his rapid growth towards realization. Hence Upaadhiis are products that follow an order. The whole cosmos is in order - you do see local perturbations but that is part of the total order. I do not know if you are familiar with Theory of Chaos. There is order in the Chaos - a self-similarity at local level and at global level. The point is the whole universe moves in perfect order. That is the reason a scientist sitting a corner in a universe able to discover the laws that are applicable at galaxies and galaxies away. That is due to perfect order. You can see a child crying and mother consoling - part of the order. The same mother was a child before who was crying and was taken care of by her mother - the chain goes on - generations to come and generations to past. If you sit an airport - you can enjoy the order in the local disorders that is happening - some people complain - and some people cause others to complain - all part of the order. If you pay attention to local you will think there is disorder - but sit back and see - everything is part of order. Some smiling some laughing some crying some cause others to cry - all within the total order - local perturbations and global responses. That is the beauty of life. Life continuously changes but actually nothing changes - same complaints centuries ago and same complaints in centuries to come. Nothing in principle changes. Einstein was asked how people are going to fight in the third world war - He said I do not know about that but I know the how they will fight the fourth world war - with sticks and stones. Only tools changed but the human mentality remains the same - in Mahabhaarata times and now. That is order! Putranmji tell me where there is no order. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > > --- putranm <putranm wrote: > > > > > > duality taken as reality is delusion; admitted. Whether the upadhis > > adhere to a certain objective order or pattern independent of subject > > or association of subject was my question. Does that order include > > this mind-body state announcing itself as jiva, and an appearance of > > " world " of its own features? > > Yes there is an order ... > Putranmji tell me where there is no order. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > Ok. Thanks for this added explanation. That settles the last few dots in the puzzle. I will draw the line between them as I best see fit; can verify it later. Thanks again for all the answers. thollmelukaalkizhu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.