Guest guest Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 greetings, thanks for welcoming me to the group. it makes me feel ... welcome. :-) now for my question: for me, the TEN THOUSAND THINGS (idiosyncratic individuality) and THE ONE (undifferentiated indivisible unity) are deeply interconnected. like yin/yang, they contain each other in some mysterious WHOLE. i cannot see the TEN THOUSAND THINGS without seeing THE ONE, and i cannot see the ONE without seeing the TEN THOUSAND THINGS. both ARE. is this incompatible with advaita? thank you. rachMiel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Namaste: One of the famous advaita Vedanta statement, " The me in you is seeing the you in me, " provides you the undivided nondual connection. I strongly recommend you to go over the archives carefully (you can use the search engine by using key words) for understanding the concepts. The files and Links sections of advaitin also contain valuable reading material. This will greatly help you get a good foundation of advaita to start with. With my warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin , " rachmiel " <rachmiel wrote: > > > for me, the TEN THOUSAND THINGS (idiosyncratic individuality) and THE > ONE (undifferentiated indivisible unity) are deeply interconnected. > like yin/yang, they contain each other in some mysterious WHOLE. i > cannot see the TEN THOUSAND THINGS without seeing THE ONE, and i > cannot see the ONE without seeing the TEN THOUSAND THINGS. both ARE. > > is this incompatible with advaita? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 I'll try to convey my understanding... Let's say you were dreaming a dream that was very similar to this world. There would be TEN THOUSAND THINGS but that is only in appearance from the point of view of within the dream. Really the entire dream...all the TEN THOUSAND THINGS come from the " dreamer " and the " dreamer " is the dream. Even the character you thought you were in the dream is a dream. In the dream, there is nothing other than Self. You could not find one thing in the dream that did not come from the " dreamer " . It is not that " they contain each other in some mysterious WHOLE " ...it is that there is NO OTHER. There is no ONE or no TEN THOUSAND THINGS - both are ways of creating/imagining others. There is no interconnectedness - for that implies two otherness. It is not yin and yang...it is the Tao (that which is before yin and yang). Seeing the ONE and seeing the TEN THOUSAND THINGS are both seeing illusions...who is the Seer? Namaste, ~ Eric Putkonen http://www.awaken2life.org advaitin , " rachmiel " <rachmiel wrote: > > greetings, > > thanks for welcoming me to the group. it makes me feel ... welcome. :-) > > now for my question: > > for me, the TEN THOUSAND THINGS (idiosyncratic individuality) and THE > ONE (undifferentiated indivisible unity) are deeply interconnected. > like yin/yang, they contain each other in some mysterious WHOLE. i > cannot see the TEN THOUSAND THINGS without seeing THE ONE, and i > cannot see the ONE without seeing the TEN THOUSAND THINGS. both ARE. > > is this incompatible with advaita? > > thank you. > > rachMiel > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 > There is no ONE or no TEN THOUSAND THINGS > there is NO OTHER is there no room in advaita for the spark of utter uniqueness that is in every individual (human, animal, rock, etc.)? is brahman totally undifferentiated, impersonal, homogeneous? the notion of an underlying 'force' that permeates and binds the TEN THOUSAND THINGS together is very resonant. the notion that there are no TEN THOUSAND THINGS, or even ONE thing, that this 'force' is all there is and that it doesn't have room for any semblance of individuality or uniqueness ... this doesn't sit right with me. i / want / (and feel) / both. the ONE, the MANY. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 That is still dualistic thinking. Either totally undifferentiated, impersonal, homogeneous or utter uniqueness that is in every individual (human, animal, rock, etc.) OR both together. It all implied an " otherness " . In your dreams at night, is there not utter uniqueness in every individual form? Does that uniqueness make it any less a dream? If it is a dream, does that make it without value or nonexistant? (yes, no, no) If you were a lucid dreamer - could you know enjoy the uniquess of everything and the play...and yet realize there is no other - it is all THAT? You are trying to categorize - there are no categories (that is of the mind and otherness). " Underlying 'force' " is a concept...THAT is not that. " Underlying " implies otherness. Namaste, ~ Eric Putkonen http://www.awaken2life.org advaitin , " rachmiel " <rachmiel wrote: > > > There is no ONE or no TEN THOUSAND THINGS > > > there is NO OTHER > > is there no room in advaita for the spark of utter uniqueness > that is in every individual (human, animal, rock, etc.)? is > brahman totally undifferentiated, impersonal, homogeneous? > > the notion of an underlying 'force' that permeates and binds > the TEN THOUSAND THINGS together is very resonant. the notion > that there are no TEN THOUSAND THINGS, or even ONE thing, > that this 'force' is all there is and that it doesn't have > room for any semblance of individuality or uniqueness ... > this doesn't sit right with me. > > i / want / (and feel) / both. the ONE, the MANY. :-) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 > That is still dualistic thinking. i prefer to think of it as non-dual dualism. ;-) i see the ONE and the MANY but also see their interpenetration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 --- rachmiel <rachmiel wrote: for me, the TEN THOUSAND THINGS (idiosyncratic individuality) and THE ONE (undifferentiated indivisible unity) are deeply interconnected. like yin/yang, they contain each other in some mysterious WHOLE. i cannot see the TEN THOUSAND THINGS without seeing THE ONE, and i cannot see the ONE without seeing the TEN THOUSAND THINGS. both ARE. - I am not sure if I understand your question (if there was one) completely. But this teaching of Sri Ramakrishna came to my mind while thinking about " one and many " . I am not sure if its exactly applicable, but it is still very good in general. http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/gospel/volume_1/vol_1_frame.htm " I give the Brahmos the illustration of water and ice. Satchidananda is like an endless expanse of water. The water of the great ocean in cold regions freezes into blocks of ice. Similarly, through the cooling influence of divine love, Satchidananda assumes forms for the sake of the bhaktas. The rishis had the vision of the supersensuous Spirit-form and talked with It. But devotees acquire a 'love body', and with its help they see the Spirit-form of the Absolute. " It is also said in the Vedas that Brahman is beyond mind and words. The heat of the sun of Knowledge melts the ice-like form of the Personal God. On attaining the Knowledge of Brahman and communing with It in nirvikalpa samadhi, one realizes Brahman, the Infinite, without form or shape and beyond mind and words. " The nature of Brahman cannot be described. About It one remains silent. Who can explain the Infinite in words? However high a bird may soar, there are regions higher still. " Regards, ~Vaibhav. Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online at http://in.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Hi Rachmiel, i see the ONE and the MANY but also see their interpenetration Maybe...the ONE is what perceives the many. Without the ONE to know the many, who is there to say there are many? ______________________________\ ____ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 > Hi Rachmiel, hi steve! >> i see the ONE and the MANY but also see their interpenetration > Maybe...the ONE is what perceives the many. maybe. > Without the ONE to know the many, who is there to say there are many? uh-oh: brainal short circuit commencing! i have no 'answer' for this. understanding it is beyond my current ability. must / go / watch / tv / now / to / decompress ... ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 thank you for this inspiration. perhaps there IS a brahman that is formless and all-inclusive and the TEN THOUSAND THINGS are merely illusions, maya, dreams. but even if there is i am currently unable to experience it. in fact, i don't want to experience it. i am too much in love with the TEN THOUSAND THINGS. not the usual dizzying array of material goods. rather: unique individuals. a spider in my basement. the sound of the opening movement of bach's goldberg variations. a wild trillium growing in my backyard. an intimate friend. an idea. i am in love with all of it, head over heels. when i read one of the texts in the Files section of this group, there was a section in which an 'enlightened' man plucked a rose from his garden, and proceeded to pull out its petals one by one to demonstrate formlessness. all i could think about was how heartbroken i would be to see a beautiful rose destroyed. the closest i can now come to 'brahman' (and i use that powerful and holy term loosely, hence the quotes) is to see and marvel at the TEN THOUSAND THINGS and also see/feel the force that connects them. baby steps. > for me, the TEN THOUSAND THINGS (idiosyncratic > individuality) and THE > ONE (undifferentiated indivisible unity) are deeply > interconnected. > like yin/yang, they contain each other in some > mysterious WHOLE. i > cannot see the TEN THOUSAND THINGS without seeing THE > ONE, and i > cannot see the ONE without seeing the TEN THOUSAND > THINGS. both ARE. > - > > > I am not sure if I understand your question (if there > was one) completely. But this teaching of Sri > Ramakrishna came to my mind while thinking about " one > and many " . I am not sure if its exactly applicable, > but it is still very good in general. > > http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/gospel/volume_1/vol_1_frame.htm > > " I give the Brahmos the illustration of water and ice. > Satchidananda is like an endless expanse of water. The > water of the great ocean in cold regions freezes into > blocks of ice. Similarly, through the cooling > influence of divine love, Satchidananda assumes forms > for the sake of the bhaktas. The rishis had the vision > of the supersensuous Spirit-form and talked with It. > But devotees acquire a 'love body', and with its help > they see the Spirit-form of the Absolute. > > " It is also said in the Vedas that Brahman is beyond > mind and words. The heat of the sun of Knowledge melts > the ice-like form of the Personal God. On attaining > the Knowledge of Brahman and communing with It in > nirvikalpa samadhi, one realizes Brahman, the > Infinite, without form or shape and beyond mind and > words. > > " The nature of Brahman cannot be described. About It > one remains silent. Who can explain the Infinite in > words? However high a bird may soar, there are regions > higher still. " > > > Regards, > ~Vaibhav. > > > Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online at http://in.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 FROM: H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all. advaitin , " Eric Putkonen " <eputkonen wrote: Seeing the ONE and seeing the TEN THOUSAND THINGS are both seeing > illusions...who is the Seer? Dear Sri Putkonen, You please refer to your own experience of dream. You were present in that dream. Hence " YOU " are the SEER undoubtedly. Now the question arises ; Was the person,Putkonen of the waking state, present during dream? Who is that " YOU " ? that WITNESSED the dream? With warm and respectful regards, Sreenivasa Murthy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Unless I interpret this wrong what you are experiencing , this love for all things, which I feel is seeing the Brahman in all things and as frank says you are closer than you think you are. You see the love, beauty that is there and what is that but the Self? rachmiel <rachmiel advaitin Thursday, February 21, 2008 8:15:49 PM Re: question about duality thank you for this inspiration. perhaps there IS a brahman that is formless and all-inclusive and the TEN THOUSAND THINGS are merely illusions, maya, dreams. but even if there is i am currently unable to experience it. in fact, i don't want to experience it. i am too much in love with the TEN THOUSAND THINGS. not the usual dizzying array of material goods. rather: unique individuals. a spider in my basement. the sound of the opening movement of bach's goldberg variations. a wild trillium growing in my backyard. an intimate friend. an idea. i am in love with all of it, head over heels. when i read one of the texts in the Files section of this group, there was a section in which an 'enlightened' man plucked a rose from his garden, and proceeded to pull out its petals one by one to demonstrate formlessness. all i could think about was how heartbroken i would be to see a beautiful rose destroyed. the closest i can now come to 'brahman' (and i use that powerful and holy term loosely, hence the quotes) is to see and marvel at the TEN THOUSAND THINGS and also see/feel the force that connects them. baby steps. > for me, the TEN THOUSAND THINGS (idiosyncratic > individuality) and THE > ONE (undifferentiated indivisible unity) are deeply > interconnected. > like yin/yang, they contain each other in some > mysterious WHOLE. i > cannot see the TEN THOUSAND THINGS without seeing THE > ONE, and i > cannot see the ONE without seeing the TEN THOUSAND > THINGS. both ARE. > ------------ --------- --------- ---- > > > I am not sure if I understand your question (if there > was one) completely. But this teaching of Sri > Ramakrishna came to my mind while thinking about " one > and many " . I am not sure if its exactly applicable, > but it is still very good in general. > > http://www.ramakris hnavivekananda. info/gospel/ volume_1/ vol_1_frame. htm > > " I give the Brahmos the illustration of water and ice. > Satchidananda is like an endless expanse of water. The > water of the great ocean in cold regions freezes into > blocks of ice. Similarly, through the cooling > influence of divine love, Satchidananda assumes forms > for the sake of the bhaktas. The rishis had the vision > of the supersensuous Spirit-form and talked with It. > But devotees acquire a 'love body', and with its help > they see the Spirit-form of the Absolute. > > " It is also said in the Vedas that Brahman is beyond > mind and words. The heat of the sun of Knowledge melts > the ice-like form of the Personal God. On attaining > the Knowledge of Brahman and communing with It in > nirvikalpa samadhi, one realizes Brahman, the > Infinite, without form or shape and beyond mind and > words. > > " The nature of Brahman cannot be described. About It > one remains silent. Who can explain the Infinite in > words? However high a bird may soar, there are regions > higher still. " > > > Regards, > ~Vaibhav. > > > Forgot the famous last words? 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Guest guest Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 > Unless I interpret this wrong what you are experiencing , this love for all things, which I feel is seeing the Brahman in all things and as frank says you are closer than you think you are. You see the love, beauty that is there and what is that but the Self? thank you for these kind words of encouragement. i appreciate them. i see the beauty yes. (when i am not wrapped in my own suffering.) but i also experience great pain at the loss of this beauty. and since beauty is often being lost i am often in pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Beauty is always lost, but I guess that is what this is all about, seeing beauty everywhere, so when an ephemeral thing, other than the self is gone, the Self and it's beauty always remains. rachmiel <rachmiel advaitin Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:00:53 PM Re: question about duality > Unless I interpret this wrong what you are experiencing , this love for all things, which I feel is seeing the Brahman in all things and as frank says you are closer than you think you are. You see the love, beauty that is there and what is that but the Self? thank you for these kind words of encouragement. i appreciate them. i see the beauty yes. (when i am not wrapped in my own suffering.) but i also experience great pain at the loss of this beauty. and since beauty is often being lost i am often in pain. <!-- #ygrp-mkp{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;} #ygrp-mkp hr{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrp-mkp #hd{ color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;} #ygrp-mkp #ads{ margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-mkp .ad{ padding:0 0;} #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} --> <!-- #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ font-family:Arial;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} --> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family:Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family:Arial; clear:both;} #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding:0 1px;} #ygrp-actbar{ clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} #ygrp-actbar .left{ float:left;white-space:nowrap;} ..bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} #ygrp-ft{ font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; padding:5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-vital{ background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp\ ercase;} #ygrp-vital ul{ padding:0;margin:2px 0;} #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri\ ght:.5em;} #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-vital a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color:#999;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding:8px 0;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\ ;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin:0;} o{font-size:0;} ..MsoNormal{ margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrp-text tt{ font-size:120%;} blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} ..replbq{margin:4;} --> ______________________________\ ____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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