Guest guest Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 Namaste Sastri-ji and Sada-ji, Mind is one of those tricky words for these discussions. In the ordinary way we think of mind as opposed to body with the mind being conscious and the body inert. That the mind is aware of what is going on in its body is the commonplace naive way of thinking. In advaita however it is clear that the mind is regarded as inert and I submit that we have to understand the jiva as a mind-body conjoined unity which is pervaded by consciousness. In this way an event which occurs at an extremity eg. a burn, is as much pervaded by consciousness as an event which occurs in the brain eg. this red after image. Sada-ji states: " I am not clear how the knowledge of these mental states are stored in comparison to knowledge of the mental states associated with perceptions of objects outside. " The primary question is, how do we distinguish between internal and external perceptions? Here I think the sense of the threefold as against the twofold is the deciding factor. I leave out those people whose judgment is clouded due to overwhelming anxiety to the extent that they cannot tell the difference between the inner and the outer. In the evidently threefold perception you have the knower, known and means of knowledge. The inner perception of happiness for instance presents itself to the avidya stricken mind as twofold. This is the mind we are normally under the sway of i.e. mind as opposed to body. We feel this difference even though we can go on through viveka/analysis/discrimination to understand that it is essentially the same structurally as the external perception of this desk. For the jiva the storage area of impressions is the brain and they are tagged initially as inner or outer though a certain wariness of certainty after a lapse of time is appropriate. There are such things, probably more common than we might expect, as false memory and delusion. Best Wishes, Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 Sastriji I consider the sense of touch operates only through nerve contact. If paralytic stroke occurs we loose the nerve contact and hence the sense of touch. I think mental pain is differnt from physical pain felt through nerve system. Or course they ultimately result in mental moods that is witnessed by sAkshii. The question of internal vs external - the demarcation is whether it is sense input or direct mental mood. Through Nerves' input is how most of the senses function. Let us see how Michael looks at it. Hari Om! Sadananda --- snsastri <sn.sastri wrote: So ultimately > both the pain and the discomfort must be considered to be internal > perceptions and so they are sAkshi pratyaksha. > This is however not quite free from doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 --- ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote: > > Namaste Sastri-ji and Sada-ji, > Mind is one of those tricky > words for these discussions. In the ordinary way we think of mind as > opposed to body with the mind being conscious and the body inert. That > the mind is aware of what is going on in its body is the commonplace naive > way of thinking. In advaita however it is clear that the mind is regarded > as inert and I submit that we have to understand the jiva as a mind-body > conjoined unity which is pervaded by consciousness. In this way an event > which occurs at an extremity eg. a burn, is as much pervaded by > consciousness as an event which occurs in the brain eg. this red after > image. > > Sada-ji states: " I am not clear how the knowledge of these mental states > are stored in comparison to knowledge of the mental states associated with > perceptions of objects outside. " > > The primary question is, how do we distinguish between internal and > external perceptions? Here I think the sense of the threefold as against > the twofold is the deciding factor. I leave out those people whose > judgment is clouded due to overwhelming anxiety to the extent that they > cannot tell the difference between the inner and the outer. In the > evidently threefold perception you have the knower, known and means of > knowledge. The inner perception of happiness for instance presents itself > to the avidya stricken mind as twofold. This is the mind we are normally > under the sway of i.e. mind as opposed to body. We feel this difference > even though we can go on through viveka/analysis/discrimination to > understand that it is essentially the same structurally as the external > perception of this desk. > > For the jiva the storage area of impressions is the brain and they are > tagged initially as inner or outer though a certain wariness of certainty > after a lapse of time is appropriate. There are such things, probably > more common than we might expect, as false memory and delusion. > > Best Wishes, > Michael. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 --- ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote: > The primary question is, how do we distinguish between internal and > external perceptions? Here I think the sense of the threefold as against > the twofold is the deciding factor. I leave out those people whose > judgment is clouded due to overwhelming anxiety to the extent that they > cannot tell the difference between the inner and the outer. In the > evidently threefold perception you have the knower, known and means of > knowledge. The inner perception of happiness for instance presents itself > to the avidya stricken mind as twofold. This is the mind we are normally > under the sway of i.e. mind as opposed to body. We feel this difference > even though we can go on through viveka/analysis/discrimination to > understand that it is essentially the same structurally as the external > perception of this desk. Michael - PraNAms What I understand from your statement is pramaaNa or means of knowledge makes the difference. Whether the vRitti is formed via sense input or by direct mental mood , makes the difference. The demarcation of a perception of an anger mood vs. this is a pot - is very obvious. The direct mental pain vs. physical pain transmitted to mind through nerve input could be differentiated. My question is also how the storage of this occurs in the memory - I have a problem conceiving the mental mood as thought form to be stored in contrast to storage of 'this is a pot' knowledge. The recollection of these moods could also be different. In the pot case, I can recollect a pot with all its attributes that I have stored while - stored angry mood may not have all the attributes that had before. VP of course says recollection is not direct perception since vRittis belong to two different time periods. Question is it time that makes the difference or is it attributes or lack of it that makes the difference - Hence the question how exactly these mental moods are stored in the memory? May be we may not have any specific answer - other than some speculation. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > I consider the sense of touch operates only through nerve contact. If paralytic stroke > occurs we loose the nerve contact and hence the sense of touch. > I think mental pain is differnt from physical pain felt through nerve system. > Or course they ultimately result in mental moods that is witnessed by sAkshii. The > question of internal vs external - the demarcation is whether it is sense input or direct > mental mood. Through Nerves' input is how most of the senses function. > Namaste, The phenomenon of pain perception is as complex as quantum physics! For an overview, this site is well worth studying: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pain/PN00017 'Phantom pain' is yet unexplained (e.g. experience of pain in a limb which has been amputated.) Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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