intellect

[Guest guest]

greetings. :-)

 

from the advaita perspective, of what 'spiritual' use is the intellect?

 

some traditions see the human intellect (mind, rather than MIND,

abstract thought processes, etc.) as getting in the way of spiritual

matters. others (tibetan buddhism, from what i understand) see

intellect as a potential WAY IN to spiritual transformation for

intellectually inclined people. i can see the 'truth' in both viewpoints.

 

thank you.

 

rachMiel

[Guest guest]

Rachmiel - PraNAms.

 

I have discussed the fundamental human problem in the Mind series and Shree

Dennis has

uploaded edited version in his advaita web site.

 

Fundamentally the problem is I do not know who I am - that is, there is

ignorance of once

own self.

 

Therefore I take myself what I am not - as I am this - that 'this' starts with

intellect

first when I say I am engineer, doctor, teacher etc.

 

Then it trickles down next to I am the mind - when I say I am in love, I hate

this, I am

angry etc.

 

Further down it trickles down to the body level - I am woman, man, Indian,

White, 6 ft

tall, fat etc.

 

Hence identification with which I identify myself keep changing - 'I am = this'

where

'this' that I identify with keep shifting as the Bio-data keep changing. Every

body has

high opinion of himself, and some very low opinion too.

 

This confusion is due to ignorance of my true nature of myself. I am - is

existent-consciousness, which by definition has to be infiniteness which is

limitless or

ananda swaruupam too.

 

All ignorance is locussed in intellect. Hence intellect needs to re-educated.

 

Now to address your question - It is the intellect alone that has wrong notions

about

myself and it is the intellect alone that need to fully convinced that I am not

this but

I am pure eternal ever present consciousness that I am.

 

It is as JK puts it not understanding as understanding as a thought but

understanding as

understanding as a fact. Hence it not conceptualization of who I am but

realization of

who I am.

 

I am man is not a concept, it is fact. I do not have conceptualize that I am man

nor do

meditation that I am man nor do action to know that I am man - I have to see

clearly that

I am man. If I am man but why am I behaving like an animal - if intellect asks

then one

has to provide convincing answer for the intellect to proceed.

 

The problem is we have conditioned to think I am born and I die - identification

with the

body, mind and intellect is so intense with all our transactions in day and day

out, it

is difficult to see that I am sat chit ananda - the eternal ever existent pure

consciousness - all are in me and I am in all - since sat chit ananda is one

without a

second.

That conviction has to rise in the intellect only. If intellect is not working

people go

to sleep or stoned. No knowledge can takes place in deep sleep when the

intellect is

folded.

Hence the wrong notions are in the intellect and it is the intellect that needs

reeducation.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

--- rachmiel <rachmiel wrote:

 

> greetings. :-)

>

> from the advaita perspective, of what 'spiritual' use is the intellect?

>

> some traditions see the human intellect (mind, rather than MIND,

> abstract thought processes, etc.) as getting in the way of spiritual

> matters. others (tibetan buddhism, from what i understand) see

> intellect as a potential WAY IN to spiritual transformation for

> intellectually inclined people. i can see the 'truth' in both viewpoints.

>

> thank you.

>

> rachMiel

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

>

>

> Fundamentally the problem is I do not know who I am - that is,

there is ignorance of once

> own self.

 

 

> >

> --- rachmiel <rachmiel wrote:

 

> >

> > from the advaita perspective, of what 'spiritual' use is the

intellect?

> >

 

Namaste,

 

There is a famous metaphor in Katha Upanishad (1:3:3) where the

body is pictured as a chariot, the senses as the horses, the reins as

the mind, the master as the individual (jiva), and the Intellect as

the Charioteer. Now one can imagine the Charioteer's role in taking

one to the destination! It is the master who has to decide where he

wants to go! As the Gita puts it, one has to uplift oneself by one's

own self only, and one can be one's own friend or an enemy.

 

In the jnana-marga ('sankhya buddhi'), the intellect plays a

major role. Of the four qualifications (sadhana-chatushtaya) required

of such an aspirant, Viveka - constant discrimination by the

Intellect between the eternal and the transient - is number one.

 

For those who prefer the non-intellectual routes, the Gita

assures that the Supreme Spirit Itself confers the understanding

(dadAmi buddhiyogam tam) in them as determined by their sincerity and

perseverance, and the realization that the Spirit transcends evn the

Intellect (evam buddheH param buddhvA...).

 

The main obstacle the intellect presents is lack of humility.

Unless one approaches the Spirit with this frame of mind, the path is

not negotiable.

 

The spiritual traditions show that the mightiest intellects

have bowed down to the humblest.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

> Sadananda:

 

> Rachmiel - PraNAms.

 

> I have discussed the fundamental human problem in the Mind series

and Shree Dennis has uploaded edited version in his advaita web site.

 

thank you. how do i access these texts?

 

> This confusion is due to ignorance of my true nature of myself. I am

- is existent-consciousness, which by definition has to be

infiniteness which is limitless or ananda swaruupam too.

 

could you please tell me where i could find a sanskrit dictionary to

look these terms up?

 

> All ignorance is locussed in intellect. Hence intellect needs to

re-educated.

 

> it is difficult to see that I am sat chit ananda - the eternal ever

existent pure consciousness - all are in me and I am in all - since

sat chit ananda is one without a second. That conviction has to rise

in the intellect only. If intellect is not working people go to sleep

or stoned.

 

it sounded at the beginning you were saying the intellect was the

'culprit' causing delusion. but now it sounds like you're saying sat

chit ananda must arise IN THE INTELLECT. so i'm confused: is intellect

important to the process of enlightenment ... or is it something that

gets in the way and must be transcended?

 

> Hari Om! Sadananda

 

thank you for your time and energy. :-)

 

rachMiel

 

--------------------------------

 

> Sunder

 

> There is a famous metaphor in Katha Upanishad (1:3:3) where the

body is pictured as a chariot, the senses as the horses, the reins as

the mind, the master as the individual (jiva), and the Intellect as

the Charioteer.

 

could you please differentiate: " master, " " individual " , and " charioteer. "

 

> In the jnana-marga ('sankhya buddhi'), the intellect plays a

major role. Of the four qualifications (sadhana-chatushtaya) required

of such an aspirant, Viveka - constant discrimination by the

Intellect between the eternal and the transient - is number one.

 

i can see i'm going to have to learn some sanskrit to understand these

messages! :-)

 

what do you mean by " constant discrimination by intellect between

eternal and transient? " does this mean that the intellect must be ever

ON GUARD ... never at rest? if so, this sounds exhausting.

 

thank you.

 

rachMiel

[Guest guest]

--- rachmiel <rachmiel wrote:

 

rachmiel - PraNAms

 

> > I have discussed the fundamental human problem in the Mind series

> and Shree Dennis has uploaded edited version in his advaita web site.

>

> thank you. how do i access these texts?

 

The message posted by Dennis Waite recently provides the reference - also gives

the

sanskrit words meanings.

 

----------------------

Dennis Waite wrote:

Just to keep everyone up to date with relevant aspects of my website, I have

just added the 4th page of the dictionary of Sanskrit terms, covering

arthApatti - avyapadeshya -

http://www.advaita. org.uk/sanskrit/ terms_a4. htm. Any additions/correctio ns

welcome.

 

And Part 45 of the 'Introduction to Vedanta' by Sri Sadananda is the fifth

of his section dealing with the nature of mind - Classification of the Mind

Part 3 -

http://www.advaita. org.uk/discourse s/sadananda/ mind_classificat ion3_sadanand

a.htm. I am (hopefully with his consent!) editing this slightly as I go.

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

------------

 

> could you please tell me where i could find a sanskrit dictionary to

> look these terms up?

>

> > All ignorance is locussed in intellect. Hence intellect needs to

> re-educated.

 

> it sounded at the beginning you were saying the intellect was the

> 'culprit' causing delusion. but now it sounds like you're saying sat

> chit ananda must arise IN THE INTELLECT. so i'm confused: is intellect

> important to the process of enlightenment ... or is it something that

> gets in the way and must be transcended?

 

You are asking very pertinent questions - Vedanta says - mind alone is

responsible for

bondage as well as freedom. So it is both - culprit as well as means to go

beyond the

mind. That is what meditation is also - use the mind to go beyond the mind.

 

The notions in the mind that I am this and I am that etc - where I am - the

existent-conscious entity identifies with this and this. These notions are in

the

intellect. Hence these preconceived notions form obstruction for the knowledge -

this is

also what JK calls as pre-conditioning of the mind - and as you are familiar any

attempts

to decondition would only condition in a different way. Vedanta understands

this and

uses a methodology for the intellect to get rid off these preconceived notions

and

recognize the reality behind the plurality.

 

All these answers you can find in the Dennis web pages. You may have to

patiently go over

those since many of these questions are answered. In addition he has written two

books on

advaita vedanta keeping in mind a student who is not familiar with many sanskrit

words.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " rachmiel " <rachmiel wrote:

>>

> > Sunder

>

> > There is a famous metaphor in Katha Upanishad (1:3:3) where the

> body is pictured as a chariot, the senses as the horses, the reins

as

> the mind, the master as the individual (jiva), and the Intellect as

> the Charioteer.

>

> could you please differentiate: " master, " " individual " ,

and " charioteer. "

 

*********************

ANSWER: Master refers to the individual who is the 'passenger' in the

chariot; charioteer (intellect) refers to the one holding the reins

(mind) of the horses (senses).

*********************

 

>

> > In the jnana-marga ('sankhya buddhi'), the intellect plays a

> major role. Of the four qualifications (sadhana-chatushtaya)

required

> of such an aspirant, Viveka - constant discrimination by the

> Intellect between the eternal and the transient - is number one.

>

> i can see i'm going to have to learn some sanskrit to understand

these

> messages! :-)

 

**************************

ANS.: Constant exposure to these will make it quite easy!

**************************

 

>

> what do you mean by " constant discrimination by intellect between

> eternal and transient? " does this mean that the intellect must be

ever

> ON GUARD ... never at rest? if so, this sounds exhausting.

>

***************************

ANS.: Yes! That is why this path is known as the'razor's edge'. Only

a few aspire for it, and requires boundless energy and enthusiasm.

***************************

 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Pranams,

Thank you Sunder-ji for providing this wonderful example of the chariot

(ratha-kalpana) - arguably the most famous illustration amongst all the

Upanishadic ones - it was not only used by Bhagwan Krishna in his teaching to

Arjuna, but Bhagwan Vyasa himself projects his entire Gita, nay the entire

Mahabharata, onto the canvas of this dramatic image. We have Arjuna, the brave

but bewildered jiva, caught between the opposing forces of dharma and adharma,

who fortunately has this wondrous " partha-sarathy " (charioteer to Arjuna or

Partha), to help steer him in the right direction.

 

Now in this particular illustration, the chariot itself is the deha, the body,

and the indweller in the body or the Master of the body is the JIva, the

transmigratory weary traveller who is lost in the maze od samsara. So

immediately it is clear that this Jiva is someone " other than " this

body/mind/intellect that house him as it were.

 

The horses represent the sense organs. If they are uncontrolled, then this

chariot is going nowhere; it is never going to be steered in any direction, let

alone the right one, no matter who the driver is.

 

So one of the first steps in any spiritual pursuit is sense control or control

of the sense organs, or dama. Feasting the sense on all manners of

sense-gratification can never go hand-in-hand with an iota of growth

spiritually.

 

The reins of course represent the mind. The way to control the horses is through

the reins and the way to get the senses from going astray is by controlling the

mind. The mind is composed of a flow of thoughts, which in turn prompts the

organs into various actions. Now agitated, now dejected, etc. Having a intellect

with no hold over the mind is as dangerous as being in a chariot with a driver

who has no hold over the reins. When the intellect refuses to participate in

these distracting thoughts, the latter lose their hold and the intellect is able

to remain in full control of the mind. This is the second spiritual discipline -

which we call shama.

 

Now everything is upto the charioteer, the intellect. If the intellect does not

hold the reins tight, it is not going to be long before they enable the horses

to astray. So it is important first of all for the intellect to move the chariot

itself away from all sources of much distraction and noise, lest it become

practically impossible to maintain any semblance of control. This brings us to

the third spiritual discipline called uparati or withdrawal - withdrawal from an

(over)indulgence in worldly affairs.

 

Not only that the intellect now must have a very firm idea of what the goal is -

if the intellect simply has all the above steps in place, but is confused as to

where to steer the chariot towards, then the poor jiva is only going to be going

around in circles (quite literally in the cyclic dance of birth and death).

In the Gita Bhagwan Krishna uses a very important word to describe this

" vyavasayatmika buddhi " - a single-pointed committment towards reaching the

goal. Related to this is also where one more spiritual discipline in and that is

" samadhana "

 

Not only now must the destination be clear, the intellect now MUST have a

road-map to get there - this is where the Shastra comes in,as does one of the

most important disciplines or qualities of all - shraddha. Scriptures and the

intellect's faith in them.

 

If the intellect is constantly questioning the validity or otherwise of the

roadmap it has been provided, it is never going to go anywhere.

 

But for that fortunate Jiva, whose intellect,mind,senses, are all composed and

aligned, and the roadmap is clear and unambiguous, the journey is assured of

success in reaching the goal of liberation or Moksha. Not otherwise.

 

Humble pranams

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam

 

 

 

Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh

 

 

advaitin@ s.com, " rachmiel " <rachmiel@.. .> wrote:

>>

> > Sunder

>

> > There is a famous metaphor in Katha Upanishad (1:3:3) where the

> body is pictured as a chariot, the senses as the horses, the reins

as

> the mind, the master as the individual (jiva), and the Intellect as

> the Charioteer.

>

> could you please differentiate: " master, " " individual " ,

and " charioteer. "

 

************ *********

ANSWER: Master refers to the individual who is the 'passenger' in the

chariot; charioteer (intellect) refers to the one holding the reins

(mind) of the horses (senses).

************ *********

 

..

 

 

 

______________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

http://www./r/hs

 

 

[Guest guest]

it sounded at the beginning you were saying the intellect was the

'culprit' causing delusion. but now it sounds like you're saying sat

chit ananda must arise IN THE INTELLECT. so i'm confused: is intellect

important to the process of enlightenment ... or is it something that

gets in the way and must be transcended?

 

rachMiel

**************************

Pranams rachMiel-ji,

It is only appropriate that this be so.

Suppose I wake up one day and find that I am seeing everything in

double(duality)...and ask someone with clear vision, hey - are there two things

here or one? and he tells me " Undoubtedly there is only one thing. That you are

seeing two indicates a defect in your vision. "

 

Now what can you do to correct your vision. If your ears hear a hundred times

about there being no duality will you stop seeing it? If you meditate on there

being no duality a hundred times, will you stop seeing it? Of course not.

Enquire into what is wrong with it by going to a specialist, and get the

cataract removed. And then alone can you see doubtlessly there indeed was never

any duality.

 

Now in the above illustration, the culprit causing the delusion of duality was

the eyes, and what was important in getting your vision restored was also the

verysame eyes, only now there is nothing to obscure their vision .

 

Trust this clarifies,

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam

 

 

______________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

http://www./r/hs

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Sadananda: Vedanta says - mind alone is responsible for bondage as

well as freedom. That is what meditation is also - use the mind to go

beyond the mind.

 

beautiful.

 

> Shyam: If the intellect is constantly questioning the validity or

otherwise of the roadmap it has been provided, it is never going to go

anywhere.

 

yes. and it is perhaps for this reason that krishnamurti's 'pathless

path' is so difficult.

 

the metaphor of the chariot is very powerful. i feel i could learn a

lot by contemplating it.

thank you for annotating it.

 

> Shyam: the culprit causing the delusion of duality was the eyes, and

what was important in getting your vision restored was also the

verysame eyes

 

so what you are saying, if i understand, is that the intellect, when

'ill' causes all manner of delusion, while the same intellect, when

clear, can lead to the truth?

 

thank you.

 

rachMiel