levels of asat & superimposition confusion

[Guest guest]

Namaste Anandaji.

 

A very interesting and thoughtful post indeed.

 

When you say 'differentation must dissolve', I take it to mean that

the person who has reached the goal of his enquiry, should be so that

he is truly incapable of spotting any differentation.

 

Can you kindly share your thoughts on the 'state' (for want of a

better word) of that person in relation to the one who intelligently

concludes through enquiry that there is a final ground underneath all

the superficial levels of differentiation but yet is capable of

transacting at those levels only?

 

No doubt, I am trying to marry this thread to the one

on 'superimposition confusion'.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

_________________

 

advaitin , " Ananda Wood " <awood wrote:

..............

That ground of course is paradoxical to all the levels through which

> it is approached. The very notion of a ground implies a

> differentiation from more superficial levels. And that

> differentiation must dissolve in reaching where the notion is

> targeted.

[Guest guest]

" Madathil Rajendran Nair " wrote:

>

> Namaste Anandaji.

>

> A very interesting and thoughtful post indeed.

>

> When you say 'differentation must dissolve', I take it to mean that

> the person who has reached the goal of his enquiry, should be so

that he is truly incapable of spotting any differentation.

>

> Can you kindly share your thoughts on the 'state' (for want of a

> better word) of that person in relation to the one who intelligently

> concludes through enquiry that there is a final ground underneath

all the superficial levels of differentiation but yet is capable of

> transacting at those levels only?

 

Dear All:

 

Even if the posting wasn't address to everybody, please allow me to

share a thought in relation to this subject.

When Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi (and Nisargadatta Maharaj also) was

asked about his " state " , his responses indicated clearly that for the

Jnani the " world " doesn't exist anymore as " we " usually conceive " it " .

This responses, of course, puzzled many (if not all) of the

questioners, who in turn ask him: How come that you seem to function

at the relative level quite well, teaching, chopping vegetables in the

morning, etc... His response was that that assumption or question

comes from one that still lives at the relative level, one who sees

him as a separate object. If the person wasn't happy with that answer,

usually he used to say: " When you realize and be a Jnani, see if the

question is still there " .

 

(Please note that I paraphrased most of the thought, that was taken

from different places of his teachings/talks. Don't ask me to find the

source, please!)

 

Yours in All,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Madathil,

 

In your post #40008 of Mar 13, you say:

 

" When you say 'differentiation must dissolve', I take it to mean that

the person who has reached the goal of his enquiry, should be so that

he is truly incapable of spotting any differentiation. "

 

And you go on to ask:

 

" Can you kindly share your thoughts on the 'state' (for want of a

better word) of that person in relation to the one who intelligently

concludes through enquiry that there is a final ground underneath all

the superficial levels of differentiation but yet is capable of

transacting at those levels only? "

 

I must confess that you have caught me here in the very paradox that

I was trying to describe. The problem is that when the goal of

enquiry is reached, the person who enquires is dissolved, along with

all capabilities of differentiation. And it even turns out that there

was never any person nor any differentiation as there appeared to be,

while the enquiry seemed to be made.

 

The state that's finally achieved cannot in the slightest bit be

personal, and thus is must stay paradoxical to any description or

view from any personal standpoint.

 

Ramana Maharshi and Shri Atmananda point to this kind of paradox,

when they both say that to a jnyani, all persons are jnyanis. After

all, a jnyani is one who has realized that ego does not actually

exist, nor has it ever existed -- not in the jnyani's personality,

nor in anyone else's personality. Thus, in the end, all personalities

and the entire world turn out to be completely perfect, in their

expression of non-dual reality.

 

Where any differentiation remains, there can be no truly intelligent

conclusion of a final ground beneath all differentiated levels. To

put it in a crude but popular metaphor, the proof of the pudding must

be in the eating. No mere looking down from any differentiated level

can reveal the ground, unless there is a going down into the ground

itself. And in that going down, all differentiation must get eaten up

entirely.

 

But with this talk of 'up' and 'down' (or 'down' and 'up'), you can

see how foolishly my attempt at logic is contradicting itself, in

trying to answer your question. So I have to give up, in an

apologetic confusion.

 

Some years ago, I wrote a piece of verse on this question of looking

down through descending levels to an undifferentiated ground. This

piece of verse is appended below, for anyone who might be interested

in some further explanation.

 

Ananda

 

___

 

 

Looking down

------------

 

The world in which we live is built

from things our minds and senses see.

It's like a complex building which

consists of many floors, each one

built up upon the floors below.

 

What we perceive at the top floor

depends on what's been built below:

on concepts and beliefs that are

implied in what appears to us,

here in the lives we seem to lead.

 

So if we want to know what's true,

in what appears built up on top,

we have somehow to look below:

down to the base on which is built

the surface show that's seen above.

 

One way of trying to look down

proceeds by building up some more.

It builds a sort of drilling rig,

upon the roof, and then drills down

some peep holes in the floors below.

 

Thus we can peer from up above,

or even send down instruments,

to bring some information up

about what may be found below.

 

But peeping down and bringing

information up, through little holes,

can hardly tell us very much

about the floors and ground below.

 

In fact all that can be achieved

by building rigs and drilling holes

is just to change the seeming show

 

that's still seen superficially,

from up above, and still conceals

much that remains unknown below.

 

In truth, the ground beneath the show

cannot be known from up above.

It's only found by going down

oneself, through all the lower floors;

 

until the final ground is reached

and there is nothing more below.

 

There is no need to build or drill

or change the building where one find's

one's world displayed at the top floor.

 

One only needs to take the stairs,

to walk down through the lower floors.

These stairs are one's own sense of self,

the way one pictures what one is.

 

By asking what is really true

in one's own picture of oneself,

the picture changes of itself

and takes one to a lower floor

that shows a deeper view of world.

 

One thus goes down progressively

until at last, quite suddenly,

no pictured self remains at all,

 

but just unpictured consciousness

in which all pictured, seeming show

of self and world is now dissolved.

 

Here, at the final, unmixed ground

of all appearances, the whole

entire edifice of seeming world

and all its pictures of the self

are known as made of this one ground,

as nothing else but just the ground

on which they seem to have been built.

 

Thus truly looking down towards

the ground from which all things arise,

there's nothing else but sight itself:

unmixed with anything besides,

at one with all reality.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Ananda Wood " <awood wrote:

 

> Where any differentiation remains, there can be no truly

intelligent

> conclusion of a final ground beneath all differentiated levels. To

> put it in a crude but popular metaphor, the proof of the pudding

must

> be in the eating. No mere looking down from any differentiated

level

> can reveal the ground, unless there is a going down into the ground

> itself. And in that going down, all differentiation must get eaten

up

> entirely.

>

 

Namaste,

 

In this context I want to quote from Kanchi Mahaswamigal's concluding

lecture in the series on Advaita Sadhana:

Quote:

From the beginning Ishvara did not reveal Himself as the one who was

granting the progress step by step. Even now he only plays `blind and

seek'. Now and then he takes the sAdhaka to samAdhi and later

permanently makes him a JIvan-mukta or a videha-mukta. However there

is a major difference. In earlier stages, all the cleaning up or

purification and other touches-up that were happening in the mind,

had Him as their Cause. But now He destroys the very mind itself!

Once the mind has vanished, how can this (sAdhaka) get to know Him

(the saguNa Brahman)? And that is why even now the work of Ishvara is

a black box to the JIva! But though it is not visible to the eyes, it

is million times proximate in the sense that there is a unification

between `this' and `that' NirguNa. The saguNa Ishvara who makes the

JIva a nothing, also makes Himself a nothing and shines only as a sat-

cit-Ananda tattva only. [The Mahaswamigal laughs here] I

said `shines'; is it the light of a bulb of one thousand watts? We

are running out of language here! We are only talking at our level

like this in order to attempt to communicate!

Unquote.

 

For the full series see either the files section of the group or

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/VK2/Advaita_Saadhanaa.html

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaste Ananda-ji.

 

Thank you very much for your 40022 and for having beautifully said what

you have said.

 

My glee of reading it was akin to the thrill of a scientist receiving

radio signals, after many long years of very patient wait, from some

extra-terrestrial intelligence located far out in the wilderness of

space. Good to know that there is company in the lonely quest.

 

Besides, your humbleness has humbled me.

 

Mouna-ji, thanks for your 40017. If ever you happen to stumble upon

those Ramana and Nisargadatta referenes, kindly write to me. Your

response has also been very helpful to me.

 

Best regards to all.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Madathil Rajendran Nair "

<madathilnair wrote:

>.

>

> Mouna-ji, thanks for your 40017. If ever you happen to stumble

upon

> those Ramana and Nisargadatta referenes, kindly write to me. Your

> response has also been very helpful to me.

>

 

Namaste,

 

This may be one of the references:

 

This may be one of the references:

 

http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/Allpub.html

 

Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi. page 467

 

 

D.: Can actions take place spontaneously without individual effort?

Should we not cook our food in order to eat it later?

 

M.: Atman acts through the ego. All actions are due to efforts only. A

sleeping child is fed by its mother. The child eats food without being

wide awake and then denies having taken food in sleep. However the

mother knows what happened. Similarly the Jnani acts unawares.

Others see him act, but he does not know it himself. Owing to fear

of Him wind blows, etc. That is the order of things. He ordains

everything and the universe acts accordingly, yet He does not

know. Therefore He is called the great Doer. Every embodied being

(ahankari) is bound by niyama. Even Brahma cannot transgress it.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " advaitins " <advaitins wrote:

>> advaitin , " Madathil Rajendran Nair "

> <madathilnair@> wrote:

> This may be one of the references:

> http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/Allpub.html

> Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi. page 467

M.: The Jnani acts unawares.Others see him act, but he does not know

it himself.

 

 

Dear Madathilnairji,

Namsthae,

 

This is an excerpt from the collection of teachings from nondual

websites.

 

" According to both Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

the perception of a sage talking, walking, eating etc.

is due to the state of the one who is perceiving it.

 

Someone once commented to Sri Nisargadatta about his smoking.

Sri Nisargadatta said if you trace it out,

you will see that it is your `I am the body' idea

that causes your `I see you smoking idea'.

 

From Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

 

Talk 499. " An ajnani sees someone as a Jnani and identifies him with

the

body. " " The Jnani sees no one as an ajnani. All are only jnanis in

his sight.

In the ignorant state one superimposes his ignorance on a Jnani

and mistakes him for a doer. In the state of jnana, the Jnani sees

nothing separate from the Self. The Self is all shining and only pure

jnana. So there is no ajnana in his sight. There is an illustration

for this kind of allusion or super-imposition. "

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi repeated thousands of times

the importance of getting rid of the `I am the body' idea.

However, the human tendency to identify with the body is so strong,

that no matter now many times the sage stresses the importance of

getting rid of the `I am the body' idea,

a human consciousness still identifies with the body

and even imagines that the sage has a body.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi has said that the Self is not aware of a body.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi has said

when the ego-I arises,

the world and God arise

and when the ego-I disappears,

God and the world disappear also.

 

In the book `Who am I?', which was the book most often recommended

by Sri Ramana,

the questioner asks:

 

4. " When will the realization of the Self be gained? "

 

Sri Ramana replies:

 

" When the world, which is what is seen, has been removed,

 

there will be realization of the Self which is the seer. "

 

The questioner then asks:

 

5. " Will there not be realization of the Self even while the world

is there? "

 

Sri Ramana replies:

 

" There will not be. "

 

According to Sri Ramana Maharshi,

all worlds, all universes, all beings, etc. are a delusion produced

by the ego-illusion.

 

The Self, according to Sri Ramana Maharshi, is just Infinite empty

Awareness

that has no world, no universes, no beings, etc.

and also no perception of a universe, or beings, or bodies, etc.

 

However, this is far too scary a thought for almost any human

consciousness.

Also the ego resents the idea of the world perception it created

being taken away.

 

Therefore almost no human consciousness ever allows such a teaching

by Sri Ramana Maharshi to be received.

Talk 556.

M.: The world does not tell you that it is of the individual mind or

of the universal mind. It is only the individual mind that sees the

world. When this mind disappears the world also disappears.

When we see our Self there is no world, and when we

lose sight of the Self we get ourselves bound in the world. "

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi has provided many other teachings and views

to accommodate people who cannot accept the idea of no worlds, no

beings, etc. and those other teachings allow for a world and beings

etc.

 

The Self has never had a perception of an ego or a body or a world

or a universe or a sage and never will have any such perceptions

according to the teachings of Sri Ramana.

 

Where do such perceptions arise from? According to Sri Ramana,

they do not arise. They never happened.

 

How can I know if the ego has really ended or not?

 

A great test is:

 

If there is still the perception of a world, or a body, or a

universe,

then the ego-illusion has not ended.

 

The Self is, according to Sri Ramana Maharshi, free of thought also.

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi has acknowledged that Self-Realization

is a poor term being used for lack of a better term.

 

What we can speak of is

the ending of the illusion-perception.

 

But to speak of Self-Realization is a bit silly.

 

The Self, according to Sri Ramana, remains the same, unchanged

always.

 

There is no such thing as the Realization of the Self.

 

There is only the Self, remaining unchanged.

 

However, there is the ending of the illusion-perception.

 

That is also the ending of the perception of a world and of bodies,

etc.

 

What remains is the Reality:

 

Formless empty awareness, with no borders or boundaries.

 

It has no name.

 

In the illusion it is called by many names, one of which is the Self.

 

No words have been or ever will be spoken in the Self.

 

No bodies have been or ever will be perceived in the Self.

 

No beings have been or ever will be perceived in the Self.

 

No universes have been or ever will be perceived in the Self.

 

The appearance of a world, or a body, or a universe, or a word,

or a thought, or a sage, is a non-existent illusion that has never

happened,

and never will happen.

 

Just as there are no worlds, no beings, no universes and no bodies

in deep dreamless sleep, so also there are no worlds, no beings, no

universes and no bodies in the Self. The Self is Infinite-Eternal-

Being-Awareness-Love-Peace

with no suffering, no sorrow, no universes, no worlds, no bodies, no

dimensions, no time, no space, and no beings. "

 

source: eternalbliss

http://www.albigen.com/uarelove/sahaja.aspx

 

Take Care,

With Love,

Joson G

[Guest guest]

My dear Shri Jason George-ji,

 

Yours 40045 and the following part of it in particular:

 

QUOTE

 

The Self, according to Sri Ramana Maharshi, is just Infinite empty

Awareness that has no world, no universes, no beings, etc. and also

no perception of a universe, or beings, or bodies, etc. However,

this is far too scary a thought for almost any human consciousness.

Also the ego resents the idea of the world perception it created

being taken away. Therefore almost no human consciousness ever

allows such a teaching by Sri Ramana Maharshi to be received.

 

UNQUOTE

 

I am left without words. I wouldn't need any, for I know I have now

spoken to myself at last.

 

Still, by way of the phenomenal, immense thanks, lots of love and

best regards.

 

Madathil Nair