Free will

[Guest guest]

Hari OM!

 

I have been trying to follow the discussion on " free will " vs

Prarabdha. I am grateful to Sadaji for hitting the nail on head,

by saying that free will is associated only when there is a doer.

 

My dilemma is: Am I really free to even feel that I am doer?

Even saying " I am not doer " seems contradiction. If I am not doer,

who else is there denying by saying that I am not doer! Only analogy

I can relate to where there is no sense of doership is deep sleep.

 

Paradoxically, when I am in deep sleep, I can neither say

" I am sleeping " , nor can I say " I am not sleeping " ! Anything I say,

goes to only prove that I am not in deep sleep! One thing is for sure.

As long as I am talking about doer or not doer, I am not in deep

sleep. May be in dreaming or waking state, but certainly not in deep

sleep. Is it even possible to understand deep sleep without its

experience, no matter how much I sincerely try?!

 

While the concepts of free will and prarabdha are difficult enough,

even the simple question of if I am writing this out of free will

is hard to answer. What appears as free will, when looked at again,

seems like one is stirred or almost helplessly forced to think,

compose thoughts, type words and click the " send " button. As they

say, even this simple action seems like something I couldn't resist!

 

So even this asking if I have a choice to think and feel I am doer,

is like asking if I have a choice to say if I am in deep sleep.

Very strangely, sense of doership seems almost a choiceless feeling.

But after that, numerous other actions seem to have choices.

 

I wrote this, not so much as out of free will, but couldn't simply

resist expressing these thoughts.

--------------------------

Hari OM!

-Srinivas

[Guest guest]

-- In advaitin , " Srinivas Nagulapalli "

<srini_nagul wrote:

>

> Hari OM!

>

> I have been trying to follow the discussion on " free will " vs

> Prarabdha. I am grateful to Sadaji for hitting the nail on head,

> by saying that free will is associated only when there is a doer.

>

> My dilemma is: Am I really free to even feel that I am doer?

> Even saying " I am not doer " seems contradiction. If I am not doer,

> who else is there denying by saying that I am not doer!

 

 

> Hari OM!

> -Srinivas

 

Namaste Sri Srinivasji,

 

While I cannot write or explicate (or understand)

the teachings of Vedanta as well as many who write

on this list, including and especially Sri Shyamji

and Sri Sadaji, whose posts I appreciate tremendously,

I would like to share something which I have just

recently come to understand.

 

When the mind says 'I am not the doer,' to whom does

the word 'I' refer? It refers to brahman. Brahman

is never the doer. Brahman doesn't act, doesn't change,

doesn't modify in any way.

 

Action takes place within the realm of duality.

If the mind knows that 'I' am the changeless brahman,

and not the body/mind, then how can that mind,

now knowing the correct locus of who I am,

take my 'self' (now recognized as brahman),

to do anything? If brahman is akarta, unmoving,

and unchanging, and I am brahman, then 'I' cannot

possibly be a doer.

 

Well then, who or what is the doer, because in

duality there does seem to be a lot of motion,

a lot of so-called 'doing' going on. Ishwara is the

doer, Ishwara in the form of perfect order. Ishwara

is the doer right now, but the self-ignorant mind

thinks that I am a jiva, and also the doer, in

reference to the actions of the body/mind.

 

As far as I am beginning to understand, there are

at least two important parts to knowledge. One

is the recognition that I am brahman, akarta, always

the same. And the other is that the body/mind/sense organs

are part and parcel of Ishwara, and as such, are governed

by, his order, the order of the whole.

 

Thus, it is my understanding that the mind of the

jnani gives his or her body/mind over to Ishwara,

not through an act of volition, but rather through

the clear recognition that the body/mind really

belong to Ishwara anyway. They are part of Iswara,

and this has always been true. This is the true

surrender of the mind to Ishwara. Not a surrender

of effort or will, but the surrender of recognition.

 

Previously the mind claimed the body/mind as my self,

and my self as an individual acting through the

individual upadhi, and now I know that isn't true.

I am in reality brahman, the non-changing substantive

of every changing thing. And in the realm of duality,

it is Ishwara with the maya upadhi (the total upadhi),

the infinite and perfect order, which acts.

 

Now, how can there be doership for a mind

which realizes this? If I am brahman, akarta,

and the body/mind belong to Ishwara, then

where is there a place for 'me' as an individual

to act, when the ignorance of jivatvam has been

dissolved in the wake of knowledge?

 

My first guru, Neem Karoli Baba, was famously quoted

as saying, " I do nothing. God does everything. "

 

Until recently I had thought how humble and self-effacing

this statement was. Now I realize that what he was saying

was literally true, meaning, " I (brahman) do nothing.

God (Ishwara) does everything. " IMO this is a perfect

statement.

 

However, conventionally a jnani will still

say " I went to the store, " while knowing

the truth of the whole thing, because that is

the way one generally communicates here.

 

Prior to having jnana nishta, as long as the mind

takes my self to be the body/mind/sense organs individual,

it is advised to behave according to dharma,

and thus avoid getting into trouble.

 

The understanding that only Ishwara acts, IMO,

does not contradict the understanding that there

is also individual free-will. My understanding

is that individual free-will also exists within the

total order of Ishwara. And as long as the mind

takes my self to be a jiva, free-will and the ability

to create new karmas exist for that body/mind.

 

Once the mind realizes 'I' am brahman, unchanging,

and the body/mind belong to Ishwara, then who

is acting? Not Brahman, but rather Ishwara, of which

the body/mind is a part. And from that vantage point,

I think there must be a lot of joy in watching what is

unfolding.

 

But while contemplating all of this, one has to be

careful to have one's actions reflect one's actual

level of understanding.

 

Otherwise, some confusions may arise, such as those

I have seen crop up within the new, non-traditional,

and currently very popular teachings of advaita, which

tend to mix levels of absolute and relative orders of

reality with such statements as, " It doesn't matter at all

what you do, nothing can affect you, " or perhaps a

worse and more contradictory statement, " You are not the doer,

so it doesn't matter what you do. "

 

Without any type of understanding those sentences

are very confusing. And in my opinion, experience,

and observation such statements can lead to some twisted

understandings of reality that are far worse than

the basic ignorance of taking oneself to be a jiva,

because now, if one takes these types of statements

as behavioral advice, one may mistakenly come to the

conclusion, " Oh, if nothing affects me, then I can do

anything I like with impunity "

 

This directly contradicts the very important and basic

value of dharma which Swami Dayananda once referred to

as being " non-negotiable. "

 

Having a value for dharma strengthens and quiets the mind,

which in turn allows it to become available to listen to

the teachings and for the pramana to work.

 

Pranams

Durga

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Durga " <durgaji108 wrote:

>

> When the mind says 'I am not the doer,' to whom does

> the word 'I' refer? It refers to brahman. Brahman

> is never the doer. Brahman doesn't act, doesn't change,

> doesn't modify in any way.

....[snip]

> Having a value for dharma strengthens and quiets the mind,

> which in turn allows it to become available to listen to

> the teachings and for the pramana to work.

 

Namaste Durgaji.

 

Thanks for sharing it.

 

I understand somewhat intellectually. But it is not yet my experience.

It is like saying, I don't do anything in my dream, only my dreaming

mind does all things. However, that awareness does not seem to be

there during dream itself. Else, dream may not be perceived as such.

 

It is true that following dharma strengthens and quiets mind.

Unfortunately, knowing dharma by restless mind is not easy. Quieter

the mind, clearer is dharma and easier to follow. But when mind

is not quiet, discerning dharma itself is hard. A catch-22. Like,

having green-card you get a job (in US). And having job, you get

green-card! Mind seems to get more restless, not less, when dharma

is not clear. " When would I be able to know what to do " - is just

another sigh of restless mind feeding more restlessness!

 

Arjuna's predicament of not able to recognize dharma clearly seems

to be a daily re-run in mind channels. So praying:

 

--------

Lord, I don't understand well.

Please give me good understanding.

Can you understand my position?

 

Lord, I can't see your presence.

Please give me vision to see you.

Can you see my situation?

 

Lord, I can't read so many scriptures.

Please give me essence of them.

Can you read what is on my mind?

 

Lord, I can't listen to so many teachers.

Please give me the knowledge taught.

Can you listen to what I am saying?

 

Lord, I can't follow what you said.

Please give me strength to follow your words.

Can you follow what I am saying?

 

Lord, I am impatient.

Please give me patience.

Can you do that a bit soon?

---

Hari OM!

-Srinivas

[Guest guest]

FREE WILL

 

Oh Teacher, you taught me

This phenomenal of mine

Is the result of ignorance,

Primal and beginningless.

 

Then you taught

I could, I needn't

And I could differently.

Isn't what you taught

Ignorance again,

Beloved Sage

For it all is in the phenomenal?

 

Then, tell me, Sir,

Why all these intelligent brains,

Gray as well as green,

On this List, do overtime,

To substantiate or refute,

A fallacy born of darkness absolute?

 

They do so every year,

Like pollen fever every spring.

No topic ever has attracted

So many colourful writings

So differently distracted.

 

Phenomenal is an appearance

You did thunder

In our yearning ears.

Isn't free will seeming, Sir,

May I add a rejoinder?

Oh Master, don't take me a pretender.

 

A world seems to erupt

In all its myriad colurs

Before my eyes

And I move as the Lord

Pulls the unseen strings,

A moppet show

Where I am nothing

Yet I think I have something!

Ignorance of the sublimest kind!