Knowledge and the mind

[Guest guest]

Namaste to all.

 

I hesitated a long time before writing about this. Because I did not

want to offend in any way, so please do not take this negatively.

 

I am amazed at the knowledge express here by many of you. The depth

of the discussions is often, if not most of the time, way beyond my

understanding.

 

I do not understand all the need for this knowledge, which seems to

me, to be an accumulating of knowledge, nourrishing the mind, the

intellect.

 

Of course the knowledge of I AM THAT, the core knowledge of Advaita

Vedanta IS essential. I am not discussing this.

 

I am thinking of the teaching of Sri Nisargadatta, Sri Ramana, Sri

Siddharameswar, Sri Ranjit Maharij, Sri Atmananda Menon... they all

go directly to the core of the teaching.

 

Sri Ramana specifically almost always brought the searcher to WHO IS

ASKING, WHO DOUBTS, WHO...WHO.

 

Isn't this the most important aspect of the whole teaching? I AM THAT

I AM! And to dwelve in the self.

 

My respect to all!

 

Namaste

[Guest guest]

--- On Thu, 5/15/08, nonduel <nonduel wrote:

 

 

Sri Ramana specifically almost always brought the searcher to WHO IS

ASKING, WHO DOUBTS, WHO...WHO.

 

Isn't this the most important aspect of the whole teaching? I AM THAT

I AM! And to dwelve in the self.

 

My respect to all!

 

Namaste

 

Shree Non-dual - PraNAms.

 

Yes - the essence of the whole is I am - That is the essence of the teaching.

 

But that teaching involves - negation of I am not this - neti.

 

But as you see there is a problem in that negation. If I negate that I am not

this, then we end with dvaita, I am and this (which I am not). But that is not

the essence. The essence is I am 'this' also. That is I pervade this as the

substantive - then only aham brahmaasmi becomes knowledge. How can I be this at

the same time I am not this - For that only we have scriptural understanding -

all this is pervaded by Brahman and I am that Brahman.

 

Hence the essence involves three aspects - Brahma satyam, jagat mithyaa, jiivaH

brahma eva, na aparaH - Brahman is real, jagat is mityaa and I am that Brahman -

Then only the world and the life will become a play ground and realization that

play is a play and nothing serious in that other than for fun.

 

Hence it is not just 'who am I' - inquiry without basis. Hence all the

discussion about the world and jiiva - jagat and Iswara - all part of the same

package.

 

Hari Om!

 

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Dear Nonduel:

 

I resonated quite a lot with your posting, since I could have written

almost the same, so I am writing a response mostly to myself, from

Myself. (it's long, I'm warning you!!!)

In the previous posting Sri Sadaji put it very simple (and short), not

sure if I'm going to confuse the issue... we'll see.

 

That being said, Yes, without a doubt that I Am Brahman (That) is the

core of any Advaitic Teaching! the question is, how directly all the

teachers you pointed out went to that core? Are you suggesting that

they skipped the need for sadhana? (studying the shastic literature

can be part of sadhana too..)

 

Now, to use your examples, Nisargadatta was instructed by his teacher,

not only that He Was That but also to use that understanding always

and everywhere as a sadhana (practice) that the Maharaj implemented

right away. It took him three years of intense PRACTICE to finally

REALLY BE That (hope you understand my paradoxe, since we are ALREADY

That!).

(By the way, did you know that even Nisargadatta used to give mantras

to people to work on?)

 

Another one, Sri Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi got his Final Understanding

without even a Teacher telling him that You Are That. How come?

Scriptures point out that sadhana, in rare cases, was performed in

previous lifetimes that rendered the sadhaka/seeker ready for the

Final Blow... and then Bhagavan spent the rest of his life instructing

people to make efforts in Self-Enquiry in order to destroy their

vassanas/karma/ahankara, while at the same time reminding people that

WE ARE ALREADY THAT. To some people he instructed to continue their

studies (actually Bhagavan did serious shastric studies also, but

AFTER, of course), to some other he suggested to continue their pujas,

japas and meditations. He saw, as a Master does, what was needed, in

the moment, to each specific individual, although generally he

advocated the most direct path of Self-Inquiry. Again, practice.

 

That leads to the thought that one has to be prepared to understand

that We Are That, and then, rightly prepared, BE THAT WITHOUT

OBSTRUCTIONS, meaning that Ignorance cannot continue once

Self-Realized, it needs to dissolve (like light and darkness cannot

coexist in a room).

Usually, one day We-are-That and the next we are Completely-This,

pre-occupied as how are we going to be loved more/ earn the

necessary/raise our kids/cure our bodily diseases/get in time for the

meeting/attend that spiritual talk that is so good for me/make that

lady or man love me/etc, etc... So, if that is the case, are we REALLY

THAT? or is it that the phrase I Am That is just a concept floating

around " MY Life " trying to crystallize into something?...

 

On the contrary, well, it maybe that we were ready since past

lifetimes and it takes only a Tony Parsons, or Ramesh Balsekar, or

Gangaji or simply read the title of Nisargadatta's book to tell us You

Are That to SELF-REALIZE. Then, NO PROBLEMO! Why worry about all

these List Discussions?

We are the only judges of that, since we are the only ones to know the

flow of innate tendencies and if we identify with them or not.

 

BUT... if after all these years of BEING THAT, we still get depressed,

bored, angry without intention, greedy, jealous, proud, judgmental,

have that sense of separation not based only on the sensorial part of

the body, and all the goody-goodies of that mischievous hallucination

called ahankara, ...THEN, we need a teaching, a teacher, knowledge for

the mind and intellect... the simple phrase You Are That apparently

was not enough, since we have been hearing it for x-years now and

although we know that we exist and that is easy to prove, we still

don't feel FULL (and when I say FULL I mean it, reeaaallly FULL-FULL

Infinite).

That is why the Vedas were " transmitted " , to guide and help us

" dissolve " into what is our nonbirth-right, namely the

Self/Atman/Brahman, and through Practice AND Knowledge, implement that

dissolution.

 

To put things short, if you are able to dwelve in the self ALWAYS and

EVERYWHERE (like Bhagavan Ramana for example), then I'll send you the

medal.

Until then, we need to nourish the mind with good intellectual food,

and the heart with good surrendered food.

An for " all this need for knowledge " as you put it, some people (like

me) finds in it a good source of inspiration and practice that point

to the " Core " , but it doesn't have to be the same for everyone, for

some maybe singing kirtans and bhajans day-long, reading Rumi's

poetry, watching basketball, playing chess or cooking vegetarian

gourmet kitchen. What I discover is that all this knowledge is also

pointing to that same place, the core... " I "

And I also know that sometimes it gets mixed with personal egos and

displays of intellectual acrobacy, but in the end it is all usefull,

it all depends if we are open to it.

 

Maybe it's not what you needed anyway, who knows?...

you are the only judge.

 

In any case, if you read until now, I already have to admire your

patience (as well as mine!) since I'm not sure if I missed the whole

point!!

 

Thanks,

Yours in All,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

But as you see there is a problem in that negation. If I negate that I am

not this, then we end with dvaita, I am and this (which I am not). But that

is not the essence. The essence is I am 'this' also. That is I pervade this

as the substantive - then only aham brahmaasmi becomes knowledge. How can I

be this at the same time I am not this - For that only we have scriptural

understanding - all this is pervaded by Brahman and I am that Brahman.

 

 

praNAms

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

I am always at puzzle to understand this *sarvam brahma* approach. A

neophyte in jnAna mArga cannot start his sAdhana with this approach because

for a layman the teaching *sarvaM brahma* itself is difficult to

understand. Hence, first it is advised to follow *nitya - anitya vastu

vivEka (AtmAnAma vastu vivEka!!) ...If aspirant starts his/her sAdhana by

stating I am everything...where is the place for this nityAnitya vastu

vivEka, where is the place for vairAgya & saNyAsa?? If I start my

approach, I am brahman, this computer is brahman, this office is brahman,

my wife is brahman, my sons are brahman, my brothers, sisters, friends,

colleagues, boss all are brahman....the prefix that I ascribe to these

brahman (wife brahman, son brahman etc.) would invariably leads to some

sort of *attachment* without my knowledge...if my wife brahman goes, the

husband brahman in me weeps, if my son brahman is poor in academics, the

father brahman in me cries & shouts, if my employer brahman does not want

give appropriate hike in CTC, the employee brahman in me kicks that brahman

mentally :-)) this will be the mental state of those who straightaway

started sarvaM brahma sAdhana..Because they donot have the sufficient

chiita shuddhi to distinguish what is nAma rUpa & what is nAmarUpAtIta in

nAma rUpa... These are all not some incongruous statements just for some

debate sake, it is all the practical problem we are facing in our day to

day life...Hence, IMHO, our Acharaya-s repeatedly recommended vairAgya,

tyAga & saMnyAsa....An immature mind which wants to pave the path of

*everything brahma* would first ask the question if everything is brahman,

why should I first of all renouce anything?? what is the need for me to

take saMnyAsa?? They never ever realize in their lives the importance of

vairAgya... why shankara at the age of 8 took sanyAsa?? why ramaNa left

everything & went to aruNAchala, why swamy rAma tIrtha left his wife, son,

profession everthing in the persuit of jnAna?? why swamy vivEkananda took

saNyAsa?? Have they not realized this truth that everthing is brahman?? why

at all on the earth they have renounced everything for the sake of jnAna??

Kindly pardon me if I sound bit harsh here...But in my opinion, at the

initial stages (even at the advanced stages also) anAtma vastu nirAkaraNa,

vairAgya, phala bhOga virAga everything is a must...the stage will come

automatically where the realization reveals the fact that there is no

second thing apart from THAT...But this end result should not be the tool

for our sAdhana as this is not mere intellectual understanding...it is

intuitive realization gained after rigorous sAdhana supported by nityAnitya

vastu vivEka & vairAgya....

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Sadananda,

 

" How can I be this at the same time I am not this - For that only we

have scriptural understanding - all this is pervaded by Brahman and I

am that Brahman. "

 

How we know I am this at the same time I am not this comes with

realization/awakening/enlightnment/etc. (equivalent terms). Until

then it is just the mind playing games...the mind can not and will

never comprehend " how can I be this at the same time I am not this " .

Furthermore, it does not matter...it does not help

realization/awakening/etc.

 

Neti neti (not this, not this)...of course is not really the truth

(as you pointed out), but it is a practice for realizing who/what you

really are. Any practice...whatever form...is dvaita. But there are

many practices available for those who are not ready to delve right

to the root...who/what am I.

 

Namaste,

 

~ Eric Putkonen

http://www.awaken2life.org

 

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

>

>

>

> --- On Thu, 5/15/08, nonduel <nonduel wrote:

>

>

> Sri Ramana specifically almost always brought the searcher to WHO

IS

> ASKING, WHO DOUBTS, WHO...WHO.

>

> Isn't this the most important aspect of the whole teaching? I AM

THAT

> I AM! And to dwelve in the self.

>

> My respect to all!

>

> Namaste

>

> Shree Non-dual - PraNAms.

>

> Yes - the essence of the whole is I am - That is the essence of the

teaching.

>

> But that teaching involves - negation of I am not this - neti.

>

> But as you see there is a problem in that negation. If I negate

that I am not this, then we end with dvaita, I am and this (which I

am not). But that is not the essence. The essence is I am 'this'

also. That is I pervade this as the substantive - then only aham

brahmaasmi becomes knowledge. How can I be this at the same time I

am not this - For that only we have scriptural understanding - all

this is pervaded by Brahman and I am that Brahman.

>

> Hence the essence involves three aspects - Brahma satyam, jagat

mithyaa, jiivaH brahma eva, na aparaH - Brahman is real, jagat is

mityaa and I am that Brahman - Then only the world and the life will

become a play ground and realization that play is a play and nothing

serious in that other than for fun.

>

> Hence it is not just 'who am I' - inquiry without basis. Hence all

the discussion about the world and jiiva - jagat and Iswara - all

part of the same package.

>

> Hari Om!

>

> Sadananda

>

[Guest guest]

Shree Sadananda PraNAms.

 

In MY understanding, I can almost hear Sri Ramana replying..Who wants

scriptural understanding?

 

Yes, neti-neti, is a problem which Sri Ramana spoke about.

 

Again I respectfully present my limited understanding. Sri

Ramana's " Who Am I? isn't a continous parrot like repeating of the

question. It is a reminder to dwelve, to return within to " I AM " .

 

Sri Sadhu Om called this Self-Attention, which is different of

Abiding in the Self, which is a Jnani.

 

This I AM is the " I-Thought " , the first thought from which all the

others sprout from. Abiding in this I AM, this " I-Though " will

eventually bring its dissolution and the " I-I " will " appear " .

 

I understand that this is the most important Sadhana Sri Ramana, and

Sri Nisargadatta taught.

 

Thus my question whether " doing " anything else, studying the

scriptures extensively, mantra, Japas etc. which is dual by nature,

is of any help. I do not say, either, that there should not even be

any discussion per-se. I just wanted to understand the extensive

discussions and it's place in Self-Realization.

 

I certainly do not want to leave the impression that I am just

critisizing, being judgemental. Only a Sadhaka's respectful question.

 

I also understand your point, that it's all in the same package.

 

My respect Shree Sadananda

 

> Shree Non-dual - PraNAms.

>

> Yes - the essence of the whole is I am - That is the essence of the

teaching.

>

> But that teaching involves - negation of I am not this - neti.

>

> But as you see there is a problem in that negation. If I negate

that I am not this, then we end with dvaita, I am and this (which I

am not). But that is not the essence. The essence is I am 'this'

also. That is I pervade this as the substantive - then only aham

brahmaasmi becomes knowledge. How can I be this at the same time I

am not this - For that only we have scriptural understanding - all

this is pervaded by Brahman and I am that Brahman.

>

> Hence the essence involves three aspects - Brahma satyam, jagat

mithyaa, jiivaH brahma eva, na aparaH - Brahman is real, jagat is

mityaa and I am that Brahman - Then only the world and the life will

become a play ground and realization that play is a play and nothing

serious in that other than for fun.

>

> Hence it is not just 'who am I' - inquiry without basis. Hence all

the discussion about the world and jiiva - jagat and Iswara - all

part of the same package.

>

> Hari Om!

>

> Sadananda

>

[Guest guest]

--- On Fri, 5/16/08, nonduel <nonduel wrote:

 

Thus my question whether " doing " anything else, studying the

scriptures extensively, mantra, Japas etc. which is dual by nature,

is of any help. I do not say, either, that there should not even be

any discussion per-se. I just wanted to understand the extensive

discussions and it's place in Self-Realization.

 

Shree Nandual - PraNAms

 

Here is the problem as your question itself implies - provided you look at the

problem in correct perspective.

 

The fact that I have to do something nor to do something implies that I have a

deeply rooted notion that I am a jiiva who can do and need not do, etc is

there. This includes the saadhana in terms of studying the scriptures, mantra

etc.

 

I am -is pure existence-consciousness is one thing and that is what is involved

in the realization of my true nature - the essence that Shree Ramana also

emphasizes. Then there is a notion that I have to realize myself that I am, but

that very approach puts my understanding that I am existent-conscious entity in

the back pedestal since the very notion that I have to realize that which is

self-existing self-conscious entity - makes me a saadhak - where saadhak and

saadhana duality exists.

 

I am not this - is easy to say in the seat of meditation but when I am

encountering and transacting with the world which I cannot but do - that

understanding leaves me in no time - since in the very transaction, I cannot but

take the world different from me for me to transact with. Hence I have to

understand not only who I am but what is this world that I am transacting with.

 

Hence Purity of the mind is essential for the preparation of the vedantic

meditation that involves negation and assertion that I am not that which is

fleeting but that which is ever present that Shree Bhaskarji emphasized.

 

Hence I am that I am involves very vigilant, consistent mind that is able to

discriminate nitya and anitya - that which is eternal and that which is

ephemeral - to shift the attention of the MIND to that which is eternal and able

to not to take seriously that which is continously changing .

 

For that scripture is the only means - hence Vedanta insistence of shravanam -

mananam and nidhidhyaasanam - essential for any saadhak.

Scriptures are called darshanas - or mirrors that reflect my true vision of

myself that I am sat chit ananda in relation to what I think I am. Even in

Vedantic discussions, it is not what Shankara said or Bhagavaan Ramana said or

some aachaarya said etc but what is the central theme that I want to understand

that helps me in my saadhana without getting lost in the discussions. - that

should be ones focus.

 

It has been said - one should study scriptures until one realizes and one should

study scriptures after one realizes. Until one realizes they help the saadhak

and after one realizes the jnaani supports the scriptures. Look at Bhagavan

Ramana - He studied the scriptures and established that indeed they are true.

Please also study the works of Ramana - Upadesasaara and Satdarshan.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Eric Putkonen " <eputkonen wrote:

>

> Sadananda,

>

> " How can I be this at the same time I am not this - For that only we

> have scriptural understanding - all this is pervaded by Brahman and I

> am that Brahman. "

>

> How we know I am this at the same time I am not this comes with

> realization/awakening/enlightnment/etc. (equivalent terms). Until

> then it is just the mind playing games...the mind can not and will

> never comprehend " how can I be this at the same time I am not this " .

> Furthermore, it does not matter...it does not help

> realization/awakening/etc.

 

 

Here is a mind game; does it help or not -- who's the judge? My cousin told me

this

analogy, similar to one of Ramana's and to the pot-space one in the scripture.

 

Take a white piece of paper.

 

Draw a circle in it, ok, many circles, some containing others ...

 

Each circle is some individual entity.

 

What is the identity of the circle? Well look in, and you find white paper. The

true identity

of each circle is Paper, and as Paper it is nondual: as Paper, It is in all

circles and all circles

are in It.

 

Realize you are the Paper, and the circle context of limited identification is

superimposition. Tattvamasi.

 

thollmelukaalkizhu