RE: Tri Basic View Of Life - Questions unanswered

[Guest guest]

My own view is that it must certainly be the case that a skilled

teacher (one who is him/herself well-versed in the shAstra-s and the techniques

therein) could transfer this knowledge to a seeker without the associated ‘cultural’

material/practices. But that teacher would presumably have obtained such

knowledge from the shAstra-s so it is arguable whether this could be said to be

‘without the aid’. Also, since we are talking specifically

about this prakriyA, is it (or something similar) available from any other source?

I do not know of any.

 

As regards whether or not this teaching could be sufficient, it

is my understanding that it has certainly been said (not sure by whom but an

authoritative source) that the Mandukya Upanishad *on its own* is sufficient

to bring an earnest seeker to enlightenment.

 

I think the original question asked whether it was possible to

obtain this knowledge “from life alone”, however. And to this, I

would say not, since so much is contrary to the ways in which we have been

taught to think about these things.

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin

[advaitin ] On Behalf Of Bhaskar YR

Tuesday, June 24, 2008 7:29 AM

advaitin

Fw: Tri Basic View Of Life - Questions unanswered

 

 

 

 

 

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

Except my extempore ramblings, I have not seen any reply from our beloved

prabhuji-s to the below mail ...I think Sri Srinivasa Murthy prabhuji's

questions need a special consideration & to be answered...He wanted to know

whether it is possible to get our svarUpa jnAna or realization of Atma jnAna by

merely doing the *manana* on the avasthA traya prakriya ( he calls it tri basic

view of life) outside the frame of shAstra-s..In short, how can an outsider,

who does not have any belief in shAstra & traditions but wanted to know the

real nature of his self would get the knowledge of the same...

[Guest guest]

As regards whether or not this teaching could be sufficient, it is my understanding that it has certainly been said (not sure by whom but an authoritative source) that the Mandukya Upanishad *on its own* is sufficient to bring an earnest seeker to enlightenment.

 

praNAms Hare Krishna

It is none other than Sri Sankara bhagavatpAda..In his commentary he says mAndukya shruti is vedAntArtha sAra saMgraha bhUtaM ( it is an epitome of whole vedAntic teachings)...But again I donot want to bring-in neither mAndUkya shruti, nor kArika nor bhagavatpAda's upadEsha on it...As said, I want to convey the purport of this prakriya (methodology) purely on the basis of my day-to-day experience i.e. LIFE experience according to Sri Srinivasa Murthy prabhuji. Question is : is it possible??

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

The statement " mANdukyamEvA alam" is found in Muktikopanishad which means Mandukya is enough.

Regards

UHS

 

 

 

 

-

Bhaskar YR

advaitin

Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:53 PM

RE: Tri Basic View Of Life - Questions unanswered

 

 

 

As regards whether or not this teaching could be sufficient, it is my understanding that it has certainly been said (not sure by whom but an authoritative source) that the Mandukya Upanishad *on its own* is sufficient to bring an earnest seeker to enlightenment.

praNAms Hare Krishna It is none other than Sri Sankara bhagavatpAda..In his commentary he says mAndukya shruti is vedAntArtha sAra saMgraha bhUtaM ( it is an epitome of whole vedAntic teachings)...But again I donot want to bring-in neither mAndUkya shruti, nor kArika nor bhagavatpAda's upadEsha on it...As said, I want to convey the purport of this prakriya (methodology) purely on the basis of my day-to-day experience i.e. LIFE experience according to Sri Srinivasa Murthy prabhuji. Question is : is it possible?? Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar

[Guest guest]

 

PraNAms - I agree with Shree Dennis Waite statement fully. What Vedanta teaches

is you are that Brahman - The essence of advaita is 1.brahma satyam, 2. Jagat

mithyaa and 3. jiivao brahma eva na aparaH.  - It is not that one has to study

Veda texts. The teaching and faith in the teaching or the teacher who is

teaching is what is required for the knowledge to sink in.

 

To learn from life, one has to have a pure heart and capability of leaning from

life. Life being duality - the understanding the advaita in dvaita it requires a

specific frame of mind and full confirmation in that understanding. In

Uddavagiita Krishna gives an example of sadhu says he has learned from 24

teachers that includes birds and bees and about the birds and bees - but to

learn Vedanta from these a capacity to learn from these these fundamental truth

- a trained frame of mind is required. Otherwise every body can be a mahaatma

since birds and bees are all over the world. Hence a teacher is most helpful - a

teacher who has that understanding.

 

PraNAms - I agree with Shree Dennis Waite statement fully. What Vedanta teaches

is you are that Brahman - The essence of advaita is 1.brahma satyam, 2. Jagat

mithyaa and 3. jiivao brahma eva na aparaH.  - It is not that one has to study

Veda texts. The teaching and faith in the teaching or the teacher who is

teaching is what is required for the knowledge to sink in.

 

To learn from life, one has to have a pure heart and capability of leaning from

life. Life being duality - the understanding the advaita in dvaita it requires a

specific frame of mind and full confirmation in that understanding. Hence

teacher is most helpful - a teacher who has that understanding.

 

Shaastra becomes a pramaaNa to remove the subjectivity from the teacher and the

student. That is the scientific approach. I cannot make a statement in a science

paper unless I am supported by sufficient data and also provides full references

to the previous work on which my statement is based. I believe it is so or even

I experience it is so and therefore it is so - cannot be the argument in support

of my conclusion. Knowledge is different from experience. For that Vedas are

pramaaNa. We accept any religion that is in tune with Vedic statements and only

reject those parts with which they are in disagreement with Vedas. It is not

fanaticism but required for objective reference for a subjective experiential

knowledge. That is why we accept yoga and saankhya only taking those parts that

are in tune with Vedanta but reject those that differ.

 

Shaastra becomes a pramaaNa to remove the subjectivity from the teacher and the

student. That is the scientific approach. I cannot make a statement in a science

paper unless I am supported by sufficient data and also provides full references

to the previous work on which my statement is based. I believe it is so or even

I experience it is so and therefore it is so - cannot be the argument in support

of my conclusion. Knowledge is different from experience. For that Vedas are

pramaaNa. We accept any religion that is in tune with Vedic statements and only

reject those parts with which they are in disagreement with Vedas. It is not

fanaticism but required for objective reference for a subjective experiential

knowledge. That is why we accept yoga and saankhya only taking those parts that

are in tune with Vedanta but reject those that differ.

 

There is peace pilgrim in 50's in America - one can get info from web pages. If

you read her writing she comes so close to Vedanta without any exposure to

Vedanta. But not sure if she realized that she is the totality as her writing do

not reflect that understanding.  On the other hand study Eckhart Toll (one can

see him in U-tube even now). His teaching reflects the one ness of the

consciousness as in NOW.  He has been exposed to Zen, Buddhism and also some

advaita and Bhagavaan Ramana.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

--- On Tue, 6/24/08, Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

 

 

My own view is that it must certainly be the case that a skilled teacher (one

who is him/herself well-versed in the shAstra-s and the techniques therein)

could transfer this knowledge to a seeker without the associated ‘cultural’

material/practices. But that teacher would presumably have obtained such

knowledge from the shAstra-s so it is arguable whether this could be said to be

 ‘without the aid’. Also, since we are talking specifically about this

prakriyA, is it (or something similar) available from any other source? I do not

know of any.

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

 

> There is peace pilgrim in 50's in America - one can get info from

web pages. If you read her writing she comes so close to Vedanta

without any exposure to Vedanta. But not sure if she realized that

she is the totality as her writing do not reflect that

understanding.  On the other hand study Eckhart Toll (one can see

him in U-tube even now). His teaching reflects the one ness of the

consciousness as in NOW.  He has been exposed to Zen, Buddhism and

also some advaita and Bhagavaan Ramana.

 

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

 

Namaste.

The advaitic experience is not the monopoly of Indians or Hindus.

Aldous huxley, in his book 'Perennial Philosophy' quotes the words

of Christian saints, Muslims Sufis, etc., to show how they too had

exactly the same advaitic realization. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa

attained advaitic experience by practising Christianity and Islam.

When westerners used to meet Kanchi Paramacharya and ask him whether

they should convert to Hinduism to practise vedAnta he told them

that they could stay in their own relgion and practise vedAnta.

Pranams,

S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

PranamsI do not believe any one religion or path is the sole and only source of Truth. I believe all paths have some truth to them which can be arrived at through study of underlying principles and self examination. For me personally, Advaita Vedanta is the path that seems the clearest and closest to the Truth as expounded in a manner understandable to me. This might not be everyone's experience.With that said, let me share something my Teacher spoke of the last time I heard Her teach. She said there are cases where we see people achieve moksha without any study of the scriptures and without any Guru. She said that if they did not study the scriptures or have a Guru in this lifetime, in the past they must have been exposed to Vedanta and to a Guru and were very close to moksha at the time of their "birth" in this lifetime. That seems clear to me, so I thought I'd pass it along.Hari OM

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Bhaskar,

Your friend's questions (in message #40863 of Tue Jun 24) are interesting, for the logical problems that they raise. The questions and the problems need to be considered one by one, from the perspective of each state.

[a-1] : The states of waking, dream and deep sleep, are these states that are events that occur in time?

 

From a waking perspective, each of the three states pertains to an outwardly perceiving body that is located in both time and space. So the starting and the ending of each state is a bodily event which occurs in both time and space.

But from a dream perspective, each of the three states pertains to an inwardly conceiving mind. Strictly speaking, there is no space in such a mind. As any mind is considered in itself, it is an internal process of conception, which occurs in time alone. What seemed to be a waking state has here turned out to be a succession of passing moments that actually occur in time, while dreaming of a non-existent space which has been falsely imagined.

And from the deep sleep perspective, there is no world of structured space nor any mental process that conceives a world in time. What seemed to be a world of space, conceived in time, turns out to be pure consciousness that shines by its own light. That consciousness is no event, occurring in the course of time in any changing process. Nor is that consciousness an object, located in some part of space in any differentiated world.

[a-2] Do these events occur in space ?

 

This has been answered in considering the previous question [a-1]. The answer is: yes, from a waking perspective; but no, from the dream and the deep sleep perspectives.

[a-3] Do these events occur in the same time/space series?

 

As observed by our waking bodies, all events occur in the same space-time structure of an external world in which all bodies are conceived to travel. As conceived by any dreaming mind, each thought or feeling is a passing event in a successive process that occurs in time alone. As experienced in deep sleep, there are no changing events nor any process that can make any difference to unchanging consciousness.

[a-4] I appropriate these events to myself. Then who is that 'I' that is common to all these states ?

 

Exactly that which is sought by the questioning; and found by realizing it, as one's own, uncompromised identity.

[a-5] Is it possible to get answers to these questions from LIFE only without referring to any scriptures ?

 

It is clearly impossible to get answers from anything other than true 'life', no matter what scripture may or may not be invoked. It is 'life' that gives value to any scripture, not the other way around. It is the scripture that must always be left behind, in search of its living value. No proper answer can be found without arriving at exactly that principle to which the word 'life' must finally refer.

This is what comes personally to my mind, in response to these timely questions.

Ananda

[Guest guest]

hare krishna, namaskarams On Tue, 24/6/08, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:{ I want to convey the purport of this prakriya (methodology) purely on the basis of my day-to-day experience i.e. LIFE experience according to Sri Srinivasa Murthy prabhuji. Question is : is it possible??}

why not if one has the grace of the lord ( krishna or ramana or jesus or allah).in this great universe of millions of galaxies of the lord there is never one way may lord krishna bless us all whichever way it is.baskaran

Best Jokes, Best Friends, Best Food. Get all this and more on Best of .

[Guest guest]

hare krishna namaskarams.--- On Wed, 25/6/08, Ananda Wood <awood wrote:

{It is clearly impossible to get answers from anything other than true 'life', no matter what scripture may or may not be invoked. It is 'life' that gives value to any scripture, not the other way around. It is the scripture that must always be left behind, in search of its living value. No proper answer can be found without arriving at exactly that principle to which the word 'life' must finally refer.

This is what comes personally to my mind, in response to these timely questions.}

sri Ananda that is a good analytical way of answering the questions asked.one has to learn himself from life with the grace of the lord.all other things are aids that may or may not be used.baskaran

 

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[Guest guest]

The questions and the problems need to be considered one by one, from the perspective of each state.

praNAms Sri Ananda Wood prabhuji

Hare krishna

Thanks a lot for spending your precious time in clarifying doubts from different perspectives. Actually this is what we can find in shruti and shankara bhAshya also. He analyses the three states from three different stand points..jAgrat drushti (waking standpoint), shAstra drushti and sAkshi drushti (witness view point).

It is clearly impossible to get answers from anything other than true 'life', no matter what scripture may or may not be invoked. It is 'life' that gives value to any scripture, not the other way around. It is the scripture that must always be left behind, in search of its living value. No proper answer can be found without arriving at exactly that principle to which the word 'life' must finally refer.

> I think here comes the scriptures to our rescue and help us to understand the *universal* nature of our true life...Each individual may have his/her own perspective with regard to 'life'....As Sri Sadananda prabhuji said, scriptural declarations would help us to get rid of this subjectivity of individuals' perspecitve on life & gives the knowledge of universal common factor that holds the sway in each individual's understanding of 'life'...Kindly correct me if I said anything wrong.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

one has to learn himself from life with the grace of the lord.all other things are aids that may or may not be used.

praNAms

Hare Krishna

IMHO, one has to be very careful while drawing more grace from god :-)) & in that process one should not shirk away from one's own responsibilities & escaping from the injuctions that god himself enjoined in the veda-s (veda vihita nitya, naimittika karma-s)...Yes, lord says uddhare AtmanAtmAnAm (reference gIta)..But through what means?? whether it is by simply chanting & glorifying name of god & waiting for his grace to take care of everything or following one's own svadharma & sincerely sticking to the injuctions (veda vihita karma) of scriptures?? I dont think there is any option left when it comes to adherence to svadharma...Infact this is what krishna advised arjuna on the battle field & insisted arjuna to follow his own dharma i.e. kshatriya dharma..svadharme nidhanam shrEyaH...is the verdict given my lord..So, IMO, there is no substitute available as far as one's svadharma is concerned...For example, being a brahmin, I cannot skip my nitya karma..say, prAtaH saMdhya and spend that time in sitting & doing nAma saMkIrtana in expectation of god's grace :-))..

just my few thoughts...

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namasste, AllIn true life, one can get answers only for Indriya Vishayas. Scriptures are the only source available for answers on Atheendraya Vishayas, i.e. subject outside the realm of the sense organs.To know one's true, unchangeable and absolute nature, one cannot operate the sense organs, as they are limited in asmuch as they cannot operate outside their fields. The knowledte that "I Exist" is self revealed i.e. self effulgent and not gained through any sense organs, and the nature or Swarupa of this "I" cannot be known through any sense organs. It has to be unfolded by a means of knowledge coming from outside, i.e. apta vakya or shabda.I may be

wrong.Hari OmR. S. Mani--- On Wed, 6/25/08, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yrRe: Re: Tri Basic View Of Life - Questions unansweredadvaitin Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 11:16 AM

 

 

 

 

The questions and the problems need to be considered one by one, from the perspective of each state.

praNAms Sri Ananda Wood prabhuji

Hare krishna

Thanks a lot for spending your precious time in clarifying doubts from different perspectives. Actually this is what we can find in shruti and shankara bhAshya also. He analyses the three states from three different stand points..jAgrat drushti (waking standpoint), shAstra drushti and sAkshi drushti (witness view point).

It is clearly impossible to get answers from anything other than true 'life', no matter what scripture may or may not be invoked. It is 'life' that gives value to any scripture, not the other way around. It is the scripture that must always be left behind, in search of its living value. No proper answer can be found without arriving at exactly that principle to which the word 'life' must finally refer.

> I think here comes the scriptures to our rescue and help us to understand the *universal* nature of our true life...Each individual may have his/her own perspective with regard to 'life'....As Sri Sadananda prabhuji said, scriptural declarations would help us to get rid of this subjectivity of individuals' perspecitve on life & gives the knowledge of universal common factor that holds the sway in each individual's understanding of 'life'...Kindly correct me if I said anything wrong.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

 

I thank all the members who have responded to my posting 40843

The replies need studying in detail and the same will be done .

After discussion with the questioner I will be writing again.

Once again my heartfelt thanks to all the participants.

 

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy.

[Guest guest]

harE krishnA, namaskaramsOn Wed, 25/6/08, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:[For example, being a brahmin, I cannot skip my nitya karma..say, prAtaH saMdhya and spend that time in sitting & doing nAma saMkIrtana in expectation of god's grace :-)).]

Kruthey yduthudhyAtho vishnum threthAyAm yajatho makaihi

dwAparE paricharyAyAm kalou tadharikirthanam.(bhagavatham

12.3.52)what benefits one begets by dhyAna in krithayuga,by yAgga in threthAyugaand by dedicated service in dwapara yuga one gets that by harikirthanam in kaliyuga.

 

 

nAmasankIrthanam yasya sarvapApapranAsanam

praNAmo dhukkasamanastham namAmi harim param.(bha-12.13.23)i prostate that parathathvam whose namasankirthanam removes all the papams...

 

 

na thapobhir na vEdaicha na gnanEnApi karmanA

harIrhi sAdyathE bhakthyA pramANam thatra gopikAha

(bha-mahAthmyam 46)neither by tapas nor by vedAS nor by gnAna nor by karma one reaches the lord haribut by bhakthi and the pramana or the gopisno need to leave one's swadharmA to do namasankirthanam and nothing can be done without god's grace.baskaran

..

 

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[Guest guest]

Kruthey yduthudhyAtho vishnum threthAyAm yajatho makaihi

dwAparE paricharyAyAm kalou tadharikirthanam.(bhagavatham 12.3.52)

 

 

what benefits one begets by dhyAna in krithayuga,by yAgga in threthAyuga

and by dedicated service in dwapara yuga one gets that by harikirthanam in kaliyuga.

 

praNAms

Hare Krishna

So, leave yAga, dhyAna, karma (yOga) everything and start doing only nAma saMkIrtanaM because in 'kaliyuga' it is ONLY harikIrtanaM prescribed for self aggrandizement!! Is this the way we have to understand the above slOka?? is there any suggestion in the above slOka that nAma(hari) kirtanaM is the *replacement* for dhyAna, yAga & karma or vedic rituals ?? It is to be noted that the purANa-s (in the above case bhAgavata) are replete with such statements wherein we can find 'one' spiritual practice eulogised beyond other practices. These are a type of arthavAda ( an advertisement to encourage the performance of some action. They are not the injunctions in themselves.

 

But on the other hand, the veda-s are nitya and apaurusheya. How can the results of the injuctions described therein be affected by the passage of time to say dhyAna is meant for ONLY age of kruta, yAga is meant ONLY for the age of treta ? As we know, even to this day there are people who keep up the tradition & performing Shrauta and smArtha yajnas/yAga-s strictly as per vedic injuctions & there is always benedictory & encouraging remarks from the Acharya-s who are holding flag of tradition in their hands. Are we to assume they are doing this for nothing? If these activities will go for naught at this age of kaliyuga how do we know the saMkirtana won't either? Again, the point I am insisting here is nAma saMkIrtana is not a *replacement* for vedic rituals and injuctions. Having said all this, I am not against nAma japa, kIrtana etc. etc. Ofcourse, these spiritual practices do have its own efficacy in our spiritual path...But these things are not the *alternatives* for vedic injuctions...We can do nAma saMkIrtana, nAma smaraNa, nAma japa etc. etc. during our free or leisure time or we can skip watching late night movies and cricket matches on TV and spend that time in doing nAma saMkIrtanaM..

 

Finally my point is if bhagavan himself instructs us to follow some shastric injunctions, it is

our duty to follow those injunctions, according to our individual adhikAra. We can surrender to the Lord, glorify his nAma & do saMkirtana etc. but if that means that we exhibit our surrender only through elaborate worship and singing his praises, we will end up neglecting the injunctions in the smruti & shruti texts by citing the excuses (kali, dvApara yuga etc :-)) like above..

 

My thoughts are not meant for any arguments sake...it is only a cautious reminder to myself who once upon a time took this nAmasaMkIrtana logic to the extreme...

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar