Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 I have a new posting for you to look at, on village life in South India. This is about a family feast we attended yesterday in a village about 60 KM from Tiruvannamalai. 2008/07/19/family-feast-in-gondapatai-village-tamil-nadu/ Read and enjoy. Om Arunachala, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote i his posting about Life in a Village: >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language. Dear Richard: Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " . But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the permission? All the best, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote in his posting about Life in a Village: >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language. Dear Richard: Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " . But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the permission? All the best, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all. Dear Respected moderators, Do such postings as these have any relevance to Vedanta and Sri Shankara's teachings? Please elucidate me . Thanking you. With warm and respectful regards, Sreenivasa Murthy advaitin , " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote: > > I have a new posting for you to look at, on village life in South > India. This is about a family feast we attended yesterday in a village > about 60 KM from Tiruvannamalai. > > 2008/07/19/family-feast-in-gondapatai-village-tamil-nadu/ > > Read and enjoy. > > Om Arunachala, > Richard > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I, for one, find these posts extremely relevant for this list. I hope there are others that feel that way as well.Hari Om H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all. Dear Respected moderators, Do such postings as these have any relevance to Vedanta and Sri Shankara's teachings? Please elucidate me . Thanking you. With warm and respectful regards, Sreenivasa Murthy advaitin , "Richard Clarke" <richard wrote: > > I have a new posting for you to look at, on village life in South > India. This is about a family feast we attended yesterday in a village > about 60 KM from Tiruvannamalai. > > 2008/07/19/family-feast-in-gondapatai-village-tamil-nadu/ > > Read and enjoy. > > Om Arunachala, > Richard > Time for vacation? WIN what you need. Enter Now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I, for one, find these posts extremely relevant for this list. I hope there are others that feel that way as well. Hari Om praNams Hare Krishna I am one of the fond admirers of Sri Richard Clarke prabhuji's sincerity & dedication. But when it comes to list policies & objectives ( as outlined in the *List Policies), I dont think these posts with linked photographs have any *direct* relevance to vedanta in general & shankara's advaita vedanta in particular. Anyway, let us leave the final discretion/decision to the moderators of this list & focus on the *job* what we have on our hands :-)) Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all. advaitin , Ed Akehurst <nichiketa wrote: > > > I, for one, find these posts extremely relevant for this list. I hope there are others that feel that way as well. Dear Sri Ed Akehurst, I request you to present points justifying your statement. You have not given any facts substantiating your statement at all. please do so. Please permit me to bring to your kind notice that I am visiting Sri Ramanasramam since 1970 and I knew personally some of the old devotees like Smt Suri Nagamma , Sri Ramaswamy pillai etc. who lived in the Asram during Sri Bhagavan's sojurn on this planet.We used to have Satsangs At the residence of Late Sri K.Ramaswamy who had the darshan of Sri Bhagavan in 1935 and Sri Ramaswamy was very close to Sri Maurice Frydman, Prof. K.Swaminathan , Sri Muruganar etc. Thanking you, With warm and respectful regards, Sreenivasa Murthy _______ > Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now! > http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Dear Sri Sreenivasa Murthy, This will of course be opinion, and not fact, for it is a personal reason.Seeing pictures and descriptions of the people and culture from the region from which Vedanta originated puts me in a worshipful and meditative state. It allows me to further my studies and even, depending on the particular posting, gets me up away from the computer and into study or dharma work. That is just my experience with these posts in the past, and of course may not be that of everyone. I realize this is a decision for the moderators, but for me anything that helps me stay focused on dharma and knowledge is relevant and positive.Thank you for your inquiry as to my reasoning for making my statement. This list is most helpful to my study of Vedanta.Hari OmEd Akehurst advaitin , Ed Akehurst <nichiketa wrote:>> I, for one, find these posts extremely relevant for this list. I hope there are others that feel that way as well. >Dear Sri Ed Akehurst>I request you to present points justifying your statement.>You have not given any facts substantiating your statement at all.>please do so.. Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. Help protect your kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Dear Mouna, Good question. I am not sure. I suspect that they are following age old rituals, in which they have deep belief. To disbelieve one part (that the goat could even object, after the rituals), might require they disbelieve all, I don't know. I do know that their beliefs are the like the water in which the fish swims. The selfsame fish asked the queen fish, " What is water? I have always heard of water, but I have never seen it? " Their beliefs are the substance of their (imagined) identities. I think the same is true with me. Om Arunachala, Richard , " upadesa " <maunna wrote: > > " Richard Clarke " <richard@> wrote i his posting about Life in a > Village: > > >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My > wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language. > > Dear Richard: > > Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " . > > But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think > that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have > understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the permission? > > All the best, > Mouna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Pranams to all, I have to say that I do share Sri Sreenivasajis doubts. Whenever such a post appeared I asked myself the same question: What has this to do with Vedanta? I can understand the feelings evoked in some of us by those pictures - I would have the same with Rishikesh and River Ganga as I have not yet visited Arunachala. Watching Aarti in Haridwar on Youtube, I can cry tears of joy and devotion, but I do not consider it this lists purpose to nurture such feelings. They have their place, no doubt, but they are still an expression of dvaita and not of advaita. Om shanti Sitara > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 PraNAms to all My response to the post is not as moderator but just as witnessing agent! Previous posts that involve website address that gave glimpse of Hills of Arunachala and the temples around was to me inspiring The lost post that involved - particularly the sacrifice of an innocent goat is rather repelling. There are lot of innocent beings being hurt in the name of religious practices and if possible we need to educate the public involved and if not at least keep away from them. Krishna says - sarvabhuuta hite rataaH - Love for all being is essential ingredient in growing up. I request posters to refrain from such posts in future. We do enjoy the pictures of holy places that we cannot visit otherwise and those pictures that take the mind to contemplation. I know Richard wants to share in life-experiences in India but it may be better not to show everything that goes on since there are things that distracts or disturbs the mind than make it saatvik. Adviata involves seeing advaita in dvaita hence it cannot be away from dvaita. Since our minds are not pure enough to transcend both good and bad, it is better to stick to the good until we evolve - that is what is implied in shama and dama, as a part of saadhana. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Hari Om Sadananda ji,Respected pranams to you.Hinduism is multi-facted and multi-dimensional. There are hundreds of different practices in the Bharatvarsha which has been going on undisturbed for millenia. At the same time, all these practices learn, adopt and constantly evolve into different planes. The success and the beauty of the Hinduism is that it has allowed all the pre-brahminical influences also to thrive and co-exist.The beauty of this religion and the dharmic way of life is to accommodate all points of view. Having said this, I find your view that the goat-sacrifice is " repelling " is very amusing. The yagna is part of the vedic way of life for millenia. The Krishna says that he is reached through yagna. And, many of the vedic yagna involved sacrifices. Lord Krishna presided over rajasuya yagna (which involved sacrifice). Lord Rama performed Ashvamedha (which involved sacrifice). It is only the buddhist influence on the hindu dharma which made this sacrifice " repelling " .Actually, this is a brahminical restricted way of seeing things that " repells " such practices because such a way does not comprehend the meaning behind this. Sir, You wish that we should trescend both good and bad to reach pure advaita. But, I believe that you are already pre-banding certain practices as " bad " . Who are we to pre-judge sir? Are we not following dvaita because of our pre-conceived notions of good or bad? Pranams,Jay2008/7/21 kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada: PraNAms to all My response to the post is not as moderator but just as witnessing agent! Previous posts that involve website address that gave glimpse of Hills of Arunachala and the temples around was to me inspiring The lost post that involved - particularly the sacrifice of an innocent goat is rather repelling. There are lot of innocent beings being hurt in the name of religious practices and if possible we need to educate the public involved and if not at least keep away from them. Krishna says - sarvabhuuta hite rataaH - Love for all being is essential ingredient in growing up. I request posters to refrain from such posts in future. We do enjoy the pictures of holy places that we cannot visit otherwise and those pictures that take the mind to contemplation. I know Richard wants to share in life-experiences in India but it may be better not to show everything that goes on since there are things that distracts or disturbs the mind than make it saatvik. Adviata involves seeing advaita in dvaita hence it cannot be away from dvaita. Since our minds are not pure enough to transcend both good and bad, it is better to stick to the good until we evolve - that is what is implied in shama and dama, as a part of saadhana. Hari Om! Sadananda -- http://jayaraman.wordpress.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Dearest Sada-ji: You spoke my heart. Thank you for that. Reading about the innocent goat being asked whether it wanted to be killed for the family feast brought tears to my eyes. Such a post should not be advertised on this list as most of us are either vegans or practice some other form of vegetarianism which is based in Ahimsa. Originally, these posts from Richard were " letters from Ramanaashram " . Clearly this post is not consistent with that spirit. I have been busy traveling and managing a number personal issues and have not had the time to be involved in and keeping up with the lists. But when I saw this, I wanted to say something. The luthar.com and HS websites are being integrated over the summer. There is a lot of work being done in the background by professionals. When it is finished, I will announce the new and " improved " blog/website. For now, I would like the Advaitin members to accept my apologies. The post is about an aspect of the Indian culture. While it makes very interesting reading for some people, it is not appropriate to advertise it on this list at all. In yoga, Ahimsa is the first principle. To transcend the mind and to be the Self one must see the Self in all. In the relative world, when violence is made to seem legitimate somehow, a Sadhak must not be influenced by that. Self-Realization and Ahimsa go together. I ask for your forgiveness for this post being advertised here. I will communicate my feelings to Richard. Namaste and love to all Harsha advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > PraNAms to all > > My response to the post is not as moderator but just as witnessing agent! > > Previous posts that involve website address that gave glimpse of Hills of Arunachala and the temples around was to me inspiring > > The lost post that involved - particularly the sacrifice of an innocent goat is rather repelling. There are lot of innocent beings being hurt in the name of religious practices and if possible we need to educate the public involved and if not at least keep away from them. Krishna says - sarvabhuuta hite rataaH - Love for all being is essential ingredient in growing up. > > I request posters to refrain from such posts in future. We do enjoy the pictures of holy places that we cannot visit otherwise and those pictures that take the mind to contemplation. I know Richard wants to share in life-experiences in India but it may be better not to show everything that goes on since there are things that distracts or disturbs the mind than make it saatvik. > > Adviata involves seeing advaita in dvaita hence it cannot be away from dvaita. Since our minds are not pure enough to transcend both good and bad, it is better to stick to the good until we evolve - that is what is implied in shama and dama, as a part of saadhana. > > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 --- On Mon, 7/21/08, ஜயராமன௠<vaithikasri wrote: Having said this, I find your view that the goat-sacrifice is " repelling " is very amusing.  ...... ----------- Shree Jay - PraNAms. I do not think it is amusing to the goat that was being sacrificed! Anyway as you pointed out as a saadhaka I am dvaitin since there is saadhya and sandhana and saadhaka. You are right - my mind is not mature enough to see samatvam in good and bad. If I have a choice, I would prefer to be good and like all prefer food over garbage even though as a scientist I have the samatvam that they are all electrons, protons and neutrons- Hence Shree Sastriji's recent statement vyavahaara has to be handled at vyavahaara level and not mixed with paaramaarthika level. I have no intension of getting into arguments about the Hindu religion's animal sacrifices. Ahimsa is also part of Hindu religion too, not necessarily only Buddhist thought. Hence I close the website that Richard sent as soon as I saw the innocent goat. My request was to refrain from such posts even though we know SAT pervades everything - good and bad. The point has been made and no further posts on this topic by me. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 , " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote: > > I have a new posting for you to look at, on village life in South > India. This is about a family feast we attended yesterday in a village > about 60 KM from Tiruvannamalai. > > 2008/07/19/family-feast-in-gondapatai-village-tamil- nadu/ > > Read and enjoy. > > Om Arunachala, > Richard Namaste, Pity about the murder of the goat, I'm sure 'God' is very happy. Yes many parts of India still hold to ancient rites and superstitions that come under the large umbrella of Hinduism; Human animals, aspiring humans, humans, divine humans---depends where you are how you behave...............Cheers Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 2008/7/21 ஜயராமன௠<vaithikasri: > Having said this, I find your view that the goat-sacrifice is " repelling " > is very amusing. The yagna is part of the vedic way of life for > millenia. The Krishna says that he is reached through yagna. And, many of > the vedic yagna involved sacrifices. Lord Krishna presided over rajasuya > yagna (which involved sacrifice). Lord Rama performed Ashvamedha (which > involved sacrifice). > I agree entirely with Sri Jay here. yaj~na is a deep concept and must be understood in the right spirit. Any activity is ultimately a yaj~na. The throbbing universe is nothing but a grand yaj~na. The pure sAtvik mArga is suitable for some people, but not for everyone. All the 4 puruShArtha-s are considered legitimate and there are sAdhana-s for all of the 2008/7/21 harshaimtm : > Reading about the innocent goat being asked whether it wanted to be > killed for the family feast brought tears to my eyes. Such a post > should not be advertised on this list as most of us are either vegans > or practice some other form of vegetarianism which is based in Ahimsa I am a strict vegetarian too and in fact have never consumed meat ever in my life. But people who are so bothered about ahiMsA should first campaign against all the billions of meat eaters around the world and the inhumane slaughterhouses that provide food for them. Harsha-ji, there are various perspectives of looking at any issue. Note that the poor goat would have been killed and consumed anyway. If at all, one may say that it met a dignified end in the ritual rather than in some merciless slaughterhouse. The other point is that the average meat eater rarely sees the animal being killed. A meat eater who sees the goat being killed in the ritual is likely to actually develop some sensitivity and may even give up meat. Also, what is a more relevant issue today that people should bother about? The millions of animals being butchered in slaughterhouses or the odd goat that is killed and consumed in a ritual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Thank you, jay, my feelings exactly.John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Dear Richard: Mine wasn't really a question... I didn't need an answer, I know the answer. I believe that these people were not asking for permission. It was a death sentence justified as a permission by ignorance. The fact that something is a cultural old custom doesn't justify it. Under the idea that it is a " vedic " custom we justified a lot of Ego trips, like the caste supremacy only based on birth, or the sacrifice and eating of innocent animals. Every organized religion, and hinduism didn't escape this ego-trap, takes their own scriptures and " read " them literally, translating it to a different level of understanding. I supposed that we ourselves as westerners, can give many examples on how the Bible and Gospels had been " applied " to " life " . Almost every tradition (if not all) has this " mis-readings " . And if you think about it, it cannot be otherwise, since the Human Scriptures were written by " sages " but read by people like us, still under the ego-spell, and that does not mean that we change the meaning intentionally, is rather a reading under our own spectacles of ignorance and ego-centered thinking. Nowm what all this has to do with your posting?, After all you were like a kind of journalist trying to show a certain aspect of " life in India " with good intentions. But the core of the question was that, from one point of view, the villagers were having a celebration with a lot of fun, the westerners their article on " indian folklore " , but... what about the goat? did you see the terror in his eyes before dying? No, you choose turning away, why? I tell you why, because if you had seen it, " really " seen it, your life would have being changed, you would have linked, connected, entered the whole web of Life. And that is terrifying. You would have walk away saying, Forgive them Oh Lord, because they do not know what they are doing... and even less sharing the meal. As you know, it is not personal, Richard. It's just a thought on what ignorance is based on, thinking and feeling as a separate " individual " will never makes us aware of the suffering of others, being animals or human beings. Bhagavan Ramana didn't eat even eggs because he said that there was " potential life " in them! He respected even the potential life, not speaking of the actual! A little excercise, next time you eat any kind of flesh, try to visualize and " feel " what that nervous system experienced before extinction, it may add some flavour to your meal and some depth to your understanding. All the best, Mouna , " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote: > > Dear Mouna, > > Good question. I am not sure. I suspect that they are following age > old rituals, in which they have deep belief. To disbelieve one part > (that the goat could even object, after the rituals), might require > they disbelieve all, I don't know. > > I do know that their beliefs are the like the water in which the fish > swims. > > The selfsame fish asked the queen fish, " What is water? I have always > heard of water, but I have never seen it? " > > Their beliefs are the substance of their (imagined) identities. > > I think the same is true with me. > > Om Arunachala, > Richard > > , " upadesa " <maunna@> wrote: > > > > " Richard Clarke " <richard@> wrote i his posting about Life in a > > Village: > > > > >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My > > wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language. > > > > Dear Richard: > > > > Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " . > > > > But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think > > that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have > > understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the > permission? > > > > All the best, > > Mouna > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 " Mouna " <maunna wrote: > > But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the permission? > Dear Richard: Mine wasn't really a question... I didn't need an answer, I know the answer. I believe that these people were not asking for permission. It was a death sentence justified as a permission by ignorance. The fact that something is a cultural old custom doesn't justify it. Under the idea that it is a " vedic " custom we justified a lot of Ego trips, like the caste supremacy only based on birth, or the sacrifice and eating of innocent animals. Every organized religion, and hinduism didn't escape this ego-trap, takes their own scriptures and " read " them literally, translating it to a different level of understanding. I supposed that we ourselves as westerners, can give many examples on how the Bible and Gospels had been " applied " to " life " . Almost every tradition (if not all) has this " mis-readings " . And if you think about it, it cannot be otherwise, since the Human Scriptures were written by " sages " but read by people like us, still under the ego-spell, and that does not mean that we change the meaning intentionally, is rather a reading under our own spectacles of ignorance and ego-centered thinking. Nowm what all this has to do with your posting?, After all you were like a kind of journalist trying to show a certain aspect of " life in India " with good intentions. But the core of the question was that, from one point of view, the villagers were having a celebration with a lot of fun, the westerners their article on " indian folklore " , but... what about the goat? did you see the terror in his eyes before dying? No, you choose turning away, why? I tell you why, because if you had seen it, " really " seen it, your life would have being changed, you would have linked, connected, entered the whole web of Life. And that is terrifying. You would have walk away saying, Forgive them Oh Lord, because they do not know what they are doing... and even less sharing the meal. As you know, it is not personal, Richard. It's just a thought on what ignorance is based on, thinking and feeling as a separate " individual " will never makes us aware of the suffering of others, being animals or human beings. Bhagavan Ramana didn't eat even eggs because he said that there was " potential life " in them! He respected even the potential life, not speaking of the actual! A little excercise, next time you eat any kind of flesh, try to visualize and " feel " what that nervous system experienced before extinction, it may add some flavour to your meal and some depth to your understanding. All the best, Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I see no merit in attacking somone who is not vegetarian ! Era > > Dear Richard: > > Mine wasn't really a question... > I didn't need an answer, I know the answer. > > I believe that these people were not asking for permission. It was a > death sentence justified as a permission by ignorance. The fact that > something is a cultural old custom doesn't justify it. Under the idea > that it is a " vedic " custom we justified a lot of Ego trips, like the > caste supremacy only based on birth, or the sacrifice and eating of > innocent animals. > Every organized religion, and hinduism didn't escape this ego-trap, > takes their own scriptures and " read " them literally, translating it > to a different level of understanding. I supposed that we ourselves as > westerners, can give many examples on how the Bible and Gospels had > been " applied " to " life " . Almost every tradition (if not all) has this > " mis-readings " . > And if you think about it, it cannot be otherwise, since the Human > Scriptures were written by " sages " but read by people like us, still > under the ego-spell, and that does not mean that we change the meaning > intentionally, is rather a reading under our own spectacles of > ignorance and ego-centered thinking. > > Nowm what all this has to do with your posting?, > After all you were like a kind of journalist trying to show a certain > aspect of " life in India " with good intentions. > But the core of the question was that, from one point of view, the > villagers were having a celebration with a lot of fun, the westerners > their article on " indian folklore " , but... what about the goat? did > you see the terror in his eyes before dying? No, you choose turning > away, why? > I tell you why, because if you had seen it, " really " seen it, your > life would have being changed, you would have linked, connected, > entered the whole web of Life. And that is terrifying. You would have > walk away saying, Forgive them Oh Lord, because they do not know what > they are doing... and even less sharing the meal. > > As you know, it is not personal, Richard. It's just a thought on what > ignorance is based on, thinking and feeling as a separate " individual " > will never makes us aware of the suffering of others, being animals or > human beings. > > Bhagavan Ramana didn't eat even eggs because he said that there was > " potential life " in them! He respected even the potential life, not > speaking of the actual! > > A little excercise, next time you eat any kind of flesh, try to > visualize and " feel " what that nervous system experienced before > extinction, it may add some flavour to your meal and some depth to > your understanding. > > All the best, > Mouna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Richard Clarke " <richard@> > wrote: > > > > Dear Mouna, > > > > Good question. I am not sure. I suspect that they are following age > > old rituals, in which they have deep belief. To disbelieve one part > > (that the goat could even object, after the rituals), might require > > they disbelieve all, I don't know. > > > > I do know that their beliefs are the like the water in which the fish > > swims. > > > > The selfsame fish asked the queen fish, " What is water? I have always > > heard of water, but I have never seen it? " > > > > Their beliefs are the substance of their (imagined) identities. > > > > I think the same is true with me. > > > > Om Arunachala, > > Richard > > > > , " upadesa " <maunna@> wrote: > > > > > > " Richard Clarke " <richard@> wrote i his posting about Life in a > > > Village: > > > > > > >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My > > > wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language. > > > > > > Dear Richard: > > > > > > Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " . > > > > > > But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think > > > that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have > > > understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the > > permission? > > > > > > All the best, > > > Mouna > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 , " Era " <mi_nok wrote: > > > I see no merit in attacking somone who is not vegetarian ! > > Era > Era, hello, At least the vegetarians and non-vegetarians humans have the capacity to defend themselves from the so-called " attacks " in different forms, and one of them is definitely an open dialogue putting on the table the different points of view (and that of course, if they are not bullied with guns by other humans...). I doubt that the goat of the example had that possibility. Paraphrasing you: " I see no merit in attacking someone that is vegetarian either, like the little goat. " All the best, Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Dear Mouna, Thank you for the comment. I had some reluctance to the posting for just such reasons. Your statement was a very good one. And certainly Sri Ramana always followed strict vegetarianism and recommended it to others. One point I was making is that from what I see here vegetarianism is a caste issue. Further I see that there continues to be very much caste prejudice, with real anger as well as contempt often shown by the 'upper' castes to the 'lower.' What I see is just people, what Indians seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice. I still will eat meat. We have chicken every week. Maybe this means I am spiritually impure, and have much to learn. This is probably the case. I still love Arunachala, and Ramana, and the Self. And the Self is not moved by any of this. Small point: I think reaction and fear are not just limited to animals. I remember from Hal Putoff's (maybe spelling is wrong) 'Secret Life of Plants' book, reporting experimentation with plant done at Stanforn University, reports of excited galvanometer readings from plants when they were under stress, or approached by particular people. So it seems to me that even plants have 'feelings' and become afraid. I am not trying to 'justify' my diet by saying this, but am saying that perhaps things are different than we think. What then? Thanks again for your comment. Om Arunachala, Richard , " upadesa " <maunna wrote: > > Dear Richard: > > Mine wasn't really a question... > I didn't need an answer, I know the answer. > > I believe that these people were not asking for permission. It was a > death sentence justified as a permission by ignorance. The fact that > something is a cultural old custom doesn't justify it. Under the idea > that it is a " vedic " custom we justified a lot of Ego trips, like the > caste supremacy only based on birth, or the sacrifice and eating of > innocent animals. > Every organized religion, and hinduism didn't escape this ego-trap, > takes their own scriptures and " read " them literally, translating it > to a different level of understanding. I supposed that we ourselves as > westerners, can give many examples on how the Bible and Gospels had > been " applied " to " life " . Almost every tradition (if not all) has this > " mis-readings " . > And if you think about it, it cannot be otherwise, since the Human > Scriptures were written by " sages " but read by people like us, still > under the ego-spell, and that does not mean that we change the meaning > intentionally, is rather a reading under our own spectacles of > ignorance and ego-centered thinking. > > Nowm what all this has to do with your posting?, > After all you were like a kind of journalist trying to show a certain > aspect of " life in India " with good intentions. > But the core of the question was that, from one point of view, the > villagers were having a celebration with a lot of fun, the westerners > their article on " indian folklore " , but... what about the goat? did > you see the terror in his eyes before dying? No, you choose turning > away, why? > I tell you why, because if you had seen it, " really " seen it, your > life would have being changed, you would have linked, connected, > entered the whole web of Life. And that is terrifying. You would have > walk away saying, Forgive them Oh Lord, because they do not know what > they are doing... and even less sharing the meal. > > As you know, it is not personal, Richard. It's just a thought on what > ignorance is based on, thinking and feeling as a separate " individual " > will never makes us aware of the suffering of others, being animals or > human beings. > > Bhagavan Ramana didn't eat even eggs because he said that there was > " potential life " in them! He respected even the potential life, not > speaking of the actual! > > A little excercise, next time you eat any kind of flesh, try to > visualize and " feel " what that nervous system experienced before > extinction, it may add some flavour to your meal and some depth to > your understanding. > > All the best, > Mouna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Richard Clarke " <richard@> > wrote: > > > > Dear Mouna, > > > > Good question. I am not sure. I suspect that they are following age > > old rituals, in which they have deep belief. To disbelieve one part > > (that the goat could even object, after the rituals), might require > > they disbelieve all, I don't know. > > > > I do know that their beliefs are the like the water in which the fish > > swims. > > > > The selfsame fish asked the queen fish, " What is water? I have always > > heard of water, but I have never seen it? " > > > > Their beliefs are the substance of their (imagined) identities. > > > > I think the same is true with me. > > > > Om Arunachala, > > Richard > > > > , " upadesa " <maunna@> wrote: > > > > > > " Richard Clarke " <richard@> wrote i his posting about Life in a > > > Village: > > > > > > >they were getting permission from the goat for what was to come. My > > > wife was not sure that the goat spoke the same language. > > > > > > Dear Richard: > > > > > > Thanks for the posting, very enlightening on many aspects of " life " . > > > > > > But I have a question, since you spent the day with them, do you think > > > that the villagers would have spare the goat's life if they would have > > > understood that the goat didn't want to die, after asking the > > permission? > > > > > > All the best, > > > Mouna > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote: > > Dear Mouna, > > Small point: I think reaction and fear are not just limited to > animals. I remember from Hal Putoff's (maybe spelling is wrong) > 'Secret Life of Plants' book, reporting experimentation with plant > done at Stanforn University, reports of excited galvanometer readings > from plants when they were under stress, or approached by particular > people. So it seems to me that even plants have 'feelings' and become > afraid. I am not trying to 'justify' my diet by saying this, but am > saying that perhaps things are different than we think. What then? > Dear Richard, Thanks for such an honest and clear reply. These matters are always subject to extremism, and we many times forget ourselves in such debates. My position is that if we are " aware " and can avoided, why not? For example, I had a big discussion with a friend of mine because she was telling me that the Dalai Lama is not vegetarian, and so " how could he be speaking of compassion!. She could not accept the fact that his health needs (being a tibetan and according to his doctors) a special kind of animal fat to be kept a healthy body. So... what is more important, a yak or the Dalai Lama, and who decides? Evidently, all these desitions are personal, under the illusion that we are the one dictating our choices. I think common sense has to dictate our actions. As you may know, besides the exceptional cases, meat consumption is not necessary for a normal living, specially in India. So we could say that it is a luxury, we could avoid it. Now, we couldn't all live like jains, picking fruits that already fell from trees, couldn't we? So the plant suffering issue is not really one. Besides the fact that those experiments may only show a chemical reaction, not the actual consciousness of the plant experiencing pain or suffering. It is quite different with animals with a nervous system, as I told you before, you just have to look into their eyes next time one attends a slaughter, then we can speak. The best analogy I heard related to this topic is, since we are all One, and I Am Brahman, The Self, etc... etc.. why, when hungry, you just don't snatch a piece of flesh from your body? or from your wife's body? You may say: " Well, that's different " ... In which sense this is different?, if you have the understanding that we are all One it SHOULD be the same, right? Anyhow, the whole point was to point out some contradictions that some people may find usefull as I did when I heard them for the first time. In our western society we have being trained to eat meat without thinking about it. Nisargadatta, that used to eat meat occasionally, saw that as a weakness he wasn't going to work on. Thanks Richard anyway for the dialogue, proves that you are a flexible person. Wishing you all the best, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Dear Richard right you are - certainly plants do react - when reading first time this incredible book decades ago it shook me... of course we shall treat every"thing" with RESPECT as everything is GD and of course we should always try to be as broadminded as possible... in His Grace michael - upadesa Tuesday, July 22, 2008 4:19 AM Re: New posting on village life in Tamil Nadu "Richard Clarke" <richard wrote:>> Dear Mouna,> > Small point: I think reaction and fear are not just limited to> animals. I remember from Hal Putoff's (maybe spelling is wrong)> 'Secret Life of Plants' book, reporting experimentation with plant> done at Stanforn University, reports of excited galvanometer readings> from plants when they were under stress, or approached by particular> people. So it seems to me that even plants have 'feelings' and become> afraid. I am not trying to 'justify' my diet by saying this, but am> saying that perhaps things are different than we think. What then? > Dear Richard,Thanks for such an honest and clear reply.These matters are always subject to extremism, and we many timesforget ourselves in such debates.My position is that if we are "aware" and can avoided, why not? Forexample, I had a big discussion with a friend of mine because she wastelling me that the Dalai Lama is not vegetarian, and so "how could hebe speaking of compassion!. She could not accept the fact that hishealth needs (being a tibetan and according to his doctors) a specialkind of animal fat to be kept a healthy body. So... what is moreimportant, a yak or the Dalai Lama, and who decides? Evidently, all these desitions are personal, under the illusion thatwe are the one dictating our choices.I think common sense has to dictate our actions.As you may know, besides the exceptional cases, meat consumption isnot necessary for a normal living, specially in India. So we could saythat it is a luxury, we could avoid it.Now, we couldn't all live like jains, picking fruits that already fellfrom trees, couldn't we? So the plant suffering issue is not reallyone. Besides the fact that those experiments may only show a chemicalreaction, not the actual consciousness of the plant experiencing painor suffering. It is quite different with animals with a nervoussystem, as I told you before, you just have to look into their eyesnext time one attends a slaughter, then we can speak.The best analogy I heard related to this topic is, since we are allOne, and I Am Brahman, The Self, etc... etc.. why, when hungry, youjust don't snatch a piece of flesh from your body? or from your wife's body? You may say: "Well, that's different"...In which sense this is different?, if you have the understanding thatwe are all One it SHOULD be the same, right?Anyhow, the whole point was to point out some contradictions that somepeople may find usefull as I did when I heard them for the first time. In our western society we have being trained to eat meat withoutthinking about it.Nisargadatta, that used to eat meat occasionally, saw that as aweakness he wasn't going to work on. Thanks Richard anyway for the dialogue, proves that you are a flexibleperson.Wishing you all the best,Mouna Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.3/1565 - Release 21/07/2008 18.36  The Secret Life of Plants From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search The Secret Life of Plants The Secret Life of Plants cover Author Peter Tompkins, Christopher Bird Publisher Harper & Row Publication date 1973 ISBN ISBN 0-06-091587-0 Published in 1973, The Secret Life of Plants was written by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird. It is described as "A fascinating account of the physical, emotional, and spiritual relations between plants and man." Essentially, the subject of the book is the idea that plants may be sentient, despite their lack of a nervous system and a brain. This sentience is observed primarily through changes in the plant's conductivity, as through a polygraph, as pioneered by Cleve Backster. The book also contains a summary of Goethe's theory of plant metamorphosis. With that being said, this book is about much more than just plants, and delves quite deeply into such topics as the aura, psychophysics, orgone, radionics, kirlian photography, magnetism / magnetotropism, bioelectrics, dowsing, and the history of science. It was the basis for the 1979 documentary of the same name. [edit] See also The Secret Life of Plants - the film based on the book Plant perception (paranormal) Jagdish Chandra Bose#Plant research This article about a science book is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Plants" Categories: Fringe science | Orgone energy | 1973 books | American non-fiction books | Botany books | Science book stubs Views Article Discussion Edit this page History Personal tools Log in / create account Navigation Main Page Contents Featured content Current events Random article Interaction About Wikipedia Community portal Recent changes Contact Wikipedia Donate to Wikipedia Help Search Toolbox What links here Related changes Upload file Special pages Printable version Permanent link Cite this page Languages Français This page was last modified on 7 July 2008, at 02:47. All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License. (See Copyrights for details.) Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a U.S. registered 501©(3) tax-deductible nonprofit charity. 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Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 , " upadesa " <maunna wrote: > > My position is that if we are " aware " and can avoided, why not? For > example, I had a big discussion with a friend of mine because she was > telling me that the Dalai Lama is not vegetarian, and so " how could he > be speaking of compassion!. She could not accept the fact that his > health needs (being a tibetan and according to his doctors) a special > kind of animal fat to be kept a healthy body. So... what is more > important, a yak or the Dalai Lama, and who decides? Dear Mouna-ji: Respectfully, there is no comparison between Sri Ramana and the Dalai Lama. Although Dalai Lama and Sri Ramana are products of their cultures, in the eyes of the devotees, Sri Ramana has no equals. Suppose a doctor had told Sri Ramana that he would have to start eating chicken or lamb or yak to maintain his health. We can all predict Sri Ramana's response. I am not making a judgment here on right or wrong of eating meat but simply pointing out that Sri Ramana was very firm on certain principles and would not bend under any circumstances. This is borne out time after time. The sage of Arunachala viewed the life in animals as just as sacred as human beings. Same life, Same Self. Sri Ramana said that the cow Lakshmi attained Mukti. " All beings wish to be happy " . That includes animals. Namaste and love to all Yours in Bhagavan Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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