Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Dear All, Following HarshaJi's line of thought, I would like to share a very good article that appeared on a different advaitic list yesterday, that I believe addresses very clearly the different issues that had been discussed here. Mr Kuntimadi Sadananda is a respected advaitin disciple of Swami Chinamayananda. He gives lectures and writes about advaita philosophy and issues. He also gave a wonderful lecture on Bhagavan's Upadesa Saram and he is very fond of His Teachings, which he quotes very often. This article appeared in a magazine called Hinduism Today some time ago. Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna .......................... Does Hinduism require one to be a vegetarian. By K. Sadananda Recently two questions were asked - Does Hinduism require one to believe in God? Does Hinduism require one to be a vegetarian? In a recent article, I have addressed the first question. Here I will provide some thoughts for the second question. In relation to the first question, I have discussed what Hinduism stands for, and who is truly a Hindu. In essence, Hinduism is Sanatana Dharma, and that Dharma is from time immemorial - it involves pursuit for Moksha. Therefore the one who is seeking for Moksha is a true Hindu, irrespective of the nationality, caste, creed or gender. There are other aspects that go with sanatana dharma, but in a nut shell pursuit of Moksha is the essential ingradient. With that catholic understanding, one can see that Hinduism becomes a way of life because the pursuit of the essential purpose of life is the goal of the Hindu life. With that perspective, it is easier to analyze all other questions including whether Hinduism requires one to be a vegetarian. Since the purpose of life is securing liberation or Moksha, until we reach that we need to live. Only death is the death of the ego that happens in the spiritual awakening. Hence, keeping the body alive by nourishment is our Dharma. That means one has to eat to live (not the other way - living for eating sake!) Life lives on life. That is the law of nature. Whether I eat an animal or plant I am destroying a life. Among all life forms Man is different from the rest of the life kingdom. He has the capability to discriminate the right from wrong. That also gives him the freedom of choice. Plants have just body and perhaps a rudimentary mind. Animals have both body and mind to express feelings and suffering, but rudimentary intellect. Man has not only body and mind but also well-developed intellect to discriminate, decide and to choose. He always has three choices - karthum sakhyam, akartum sakhyam and anyatha karthum sakhyam meaning he can choose to do, not to do and do it other way. For animals and plants there is no freedom of choice. They are instinctively driven. Cow does not sit down before meals, and inquire whether it should be a vegetarian or non-vegetarian. So is a tiger. For a Man the discriminative intellect is very evolved. Plants and animals do not commit sin in their actions because there is no will involved in their actions. For a human, the story is different. You may wonder why I brought sin in the argument. Let me explain. Sin is nothing but agitations in the mind. It is these agitations that prevent me in my journey to Moksha. Mind has to be pure (meaning un-agitated) for me to see the truth as the truth. (Bible also says Blessed are those whose minds are pure). To define sin more scientifically - it is the divergence between the mind and intellect. Intellect knows right from wrong - but we feel like doing things even though we know they are wrong - that is, the intellect says something, but mind, which should be subservient to intellect rebels and does whatever it feels like. This divergence is sin. After the action is performed - there is guilt feeling, because intellect, although was overruled, does not keep quite, it keeps prodding " I told you it is wrong. Why did you do it? " With peace of mind gone Man goes through a " Hell " . Man is not punished for the sin; he is punished by the sin. - Think about it. All yogas, if you analyze clearly, are bringing this integration between the body, mind and intellect. For a Yogi - What he thinks, what he speaks and what he does are in perfect harmony or alignment (Manasaa vacha karmana). In our case, we think something but have no guts to say what we think, our lips says something different from what are thinking - if you watch the lips and the actions that follow, they are again different! - There is no integration any where. We live a chaotic life. Besides deceiving others, most pathetic is we deceive ourselves, and the worst thing is we don't even realize that. Now, when a tiger kills and eats, it does not commit a sin. Because its intellect is rudimentary, and it does not go through any analysis before it kills - should I kill or not to kill - Should I be a non-vegetarian or should I be vegetarian " . When it is hungry, to fill the natures demand, it kills it pray and eats what it needs and leaves the rest when it is full. It is not greedy either. That is its Swadharma. It follows a beautiful ecological system. It is only man who destroys the ecology by being greedy. " Should I be a vegetarian or non-vegetarian? " is asked only by a man. Why that question comes? Because man has discriminative intellect, and he does not want to hurt others to fill his belly. He learns what `hurt' means because he surely does not want others to hurt him. Plants are life forms too, should one hurt them? You may ask. If one can live without hurting any life forms that is the best, but that is not possible. Life lives on life - that is the law of nature. My role as a human being with discriminative intellect is to do the least damage to the nature for keeping myself alive. At least, I am not consciously aware of suffering of the plants. That is why eating to live and not living to eat is the determining factor. In Bhagawad Geeta, Krishna emphatically says that a Saadhaka (one who is in pursuit of Moksha) should have a compassion for all forms of life - Sarva Bhuuta HiterathAha. In the spiritual growth, one develops subtler and subtler intellect (Sukshma Bhuddhi in contrast to TeeKshNa Buddhi, i.e. sharper intellect). That is, the mind is becoming quieter, calmer and self-contended. Your sensitivity to suffering of others also grows. Hence it is advisable to be a vegetarian. Even the traditional non-vegetarians repel against eating dogs and cats or other human beings! Why? Meat is meat after all! But with familiarity grows compassion. There are many two legged animals in human form with rudimentary intellect. They behave like animals, as we heard a case recently in Michigan of man eating humans keeping them in the refrigerator. But in the evolutionary ladder one develops subtler and subtler intellect, then it is advisable to be a vegetarian - only taking from nature what it needs to keep the body going. One should not hurt any life forms to satisfy the craving of ones tongue. Should Hindu be a vegetarian? Since such a question already arose in your mind, you have a degree of sensitivity not to hurt other living forms to satisfy your belly. Then you may be better off not eating meat and you will be at peace with yourself. Since you are sensitive to this the intellect directing you one way and your mind wants some baser pleasure and directing you the other way. When you go against your own intellect you commit sin. That is against your SWADHARMA as Krishna puts it. Swadharma in a nut shell is what your intellect or conscious believes in. Besides, now, even the traditional non-vegetarians are choosing vegetarianism not because of any compassion to other animals but they are recognizing that it is not good for their health. I have already mentioned that Hinduism has no do-s and don'ts, but you determine your own do-s and don'ts based on your intellectual values, culture, education and primary goal in life. Krishna gives only list of value systems and say a wise man follows these. One can be otherwise, and face the consequencs. You will find that following your Swadharma makes you comfortable with yourself. It is not others to judge, it is for you to judge. If you are agitated, that means you are loosing peace of mind for these and that is a sin! Imagine your self that chicken or cow that you are eating. Would you not advice the guy who is eating you to be a vegetarian instead and spare its life. Do not say you are not killing the animal yourself, and killing will go on whether you eat or not. If you don't eat, one animal is spared. This is the demand and supply. I may not be stealing my self, but if I buy the stolen property knowing that it was stolen, it is a crime! Is it not? Now there are imitation meats too - so why crave for a dead meet. Why do you want your stomach to be a burial ground for a dead animal. From Hinduism point, it does not really care. All it wants is for you to pursue the path towards the Sanatanadharma. So do what is needful to keep your mind calm and un-agitated. Purification of the mind is the means for attaining salvation, and that is the goal of human life. Since by willful actions we got ourselves into this mess of Samsar, or suffering, it is by willful Saadhana (your efforts) only we can get out of it. Lord has given us the intelligence to accomplish this - Krishna declares - you are better off following your swadharma than paradharma. Swadharma (is not just what caste you belong or what religion you belong) in the final analysis it is what your intellect or conscious dictates. Because, after the action is performed, it is your mind that has to settle accounts with your intellect. Do yourself a favor - eat only what you need, I do not think eating meat comes as your essential need. In fact it could even be harmful for your body if not to the mind. Hari Om and Tat Sat. - Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 , " Richard Clarke " <richard wrote: > > > > One point I was making is that from what I see here vegetarianism is a > caste issue. Further I see that there continues to be very much caste > prejudice, with real anger as well as contempt often shown by the > 'upper' castes to the 'lower.' What I see is just people, what Indians > seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice. > Richard, You are engaging in a self serving gross generalization about Indians and caste. Vegetarianism is not simply a caste issue. Almost everyone in my family eats meat. I sit with them on the table and eat my vegetarian meals. I do not have any anger or contempt or prejudice against my brothers and sisters whether they are part of my immediate family or not and whether they are Indians of some caste or belong to some other nationality. My dear father who passed away some years ago also ate meat. It did not lessen my love for him in anyway. You say the following about yourself, " What I see is just people, what Indians seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice. " Richard, there are over 1 billion Indians. I doubt you know them all. Your confidence in making such a statement is completely misplaced and not appreciated by me. Namaste and love to all Yours in Bhagavan Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Question : What about diet? Bhagavan. Food affects the mind. For the practice of any kind of yoga, vegetarianism is absolutely necessary since it makes the mind more satvic (pure and harmonious) From Spiritual Istruction David Godman 'Be As You Are' P.139 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Dear Harshiji. Sorry for my ignorance. I do not mean to offend. What I said is from a very small amount of experience in a very small area of India. Om Arunachala, Richard , " harshaimtm " wrote: > > , " Richard Clarke " <richard@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > One point I was making is that from what I see here vegetarianism is a > > caste issue. Further I see that there continues to be very much caste > > prejudice, with real anger as well as contempt often shown by the > > 'upper' castes to the 'lower.' What I see is just people, what Indians > > seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice. > > > > Richard, > > You are engaging in a self serving gross generalization about Indians > and caste. Vegetarianism is not simply a caste issue. Almost everyone > in my family eats meat. I sit with them on the table and eat my > vegetarian meals. I do not have any anger or contempt or prejudice > against my brothers and sisters whether they are part of my immediate > family or not and whether they are Indians of some caste or belong to > some other nationality. My dear father who passed away some years ago > also ate meat. It did not lessen my love for him in anyway. > > You say the following about yourself, " What I see is just people, what > Indians seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice. " > > Richard, there are over 1 billion Indians. I doubt you know them all. > Your confidence in making such a statement is completely misplaced and > not appreciated by me. > > Namaste and love to all > > Yours in Bhagavan > Harsha > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 , " harshaimtm " wrote: > > , " Richard Clarke " <richard@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > One point I was making is that from what I see here vegetarianism is a > > caste issue. Further I see that there continues to be very much caste > > prejudice, with real anger as well as contempt often shown by the > > 'upper' castes to the 'lower.' What I see is just people, what Indians > > seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice. > > > > Richard, > > You are engaging in a self serving gross generalization about Indians > and caste. Vegetarianism is not simply a caste issue. Almost everyone > in my family eats meat. I sit with them on the table and eat my > vegetarian meals. I do not have any anger or contempt or prejudice > against my brothers and sisters whether they are part of my immediate > family or not and whether they are Indians of some caste or belong to > some other nationality. My dear father who passed away some years ago > also ate meat. It did not lessen my love for him in anyway. > > You say the following about yourself, " What I see is just people, what > Indians seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice. " > > Richard, there are over 1 billion Indians. I doubt you know them all. > Your confidence in making such a statement is completely misplaced and > not appreciated by me. > > Namaste and love to all > > Yours in Bhagavan > Harsha > Namaste Harsha, On the surface there is some truth in what Richard says, and on my visits to India I noticed some of the same conditions. However it is pretty generalised as you say.There is a difference in many case between Brahmin and the other broad castes such as Sudras,Vaisayas and non caste Dalits. My family are a mix of vegetarians and meat eaters, and some meat eaters are the gentlest and most loving but cannot seem to make the connection between the animal and its suffering and the food on their plate. There seems to be a cognitive dissonance with regard to this, and just goes to show the mind and its divisions, combined with emotion and feeling/energy can be most deceiving on the levels of awareness in the vijnanamayakosa. They may not be awareness from that level at all but from a highly developed Manomayakosa----love or the manifestations of sakti prana come through all.....It is still a mystery to me and can only be some kind of cognitive dissonance...Cheers Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: > > , " harshaimtm " <harsha@> > wrote: > > > > , " Richard Clarke " <richard@> > > wrote: > Namaste Harsha, > > On the surface there is some truth in what Richard says, and on my > visits to India I noticed some of the same conditions. However it is > pretty generalised as you say.There is a difference in many case > between Brahmin and the other broad castes such as Sudras,Vaisayas > and non caste Dalits. > Dear Tony and Richard, Yes, you are right of course. There is an underlying aspect of truth to what you are saying. I was objecting to the generalization of caste prejudice across all Indian in the context of meat eating. In many Indian families, there are both vegetarians and meat eaters and they do not have contempt for each other. The truth is that bias, prejudice, racism, casteism, religious intolerance in some form are part of the human condition and no country or culture in the East or the West is exempt from it. I apologize to Richard and others if I hurt their feelings. However, I felt candid expression of my discomfort with those remarks was needed. Namaste and love to all Yours in Bhagavan Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 > > > > I see no merit in attacking somone who is not vegetarian ! > > > > Era > > > > Era, hello, > > At least the vegetarians and non-vegetarians humans have the > capacity > to defend themselves from the so-called " attacks " in different > forms, > and one of them is definitely an open dialogue putting on the table > the different points of view (and that of course, if they are not > bullied with guns by other humans...). > I doubt that the goat of the example had that possibility. > Paraphrasing you: " I see no merit in attacking someone that is > vegetarian either, like the little goat. " > > All the best, > Yours in Bhagavan, > > Mouna Yes, vegetarian diet is the " spiritual " way of eating. As a missionary for Sant Mat in Hungary I was asked to show horror movies about slaughterhouses... many could not stick to the vegetarian diet and complained about made feeling guilty... Since than I dislike to make ppl feel guilty for their ways. Era Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: , " harshaimtm " <harsha@> wrote: > > , " Richard Clarke " <richard@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > One point I was making is that from what I see here vegetarianism is a > > caste issue. Further I see that there continues to be very much caste > > prejudice, with real anger as well as contempt often shown by the > > 'upper' castes to the 'lower.' What I see is just people, what Indians > > seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice. > > > > Richard, > > You are engaging in a self serving gross generalization about Indians > and caste. Vegetarianism is not simply a caste issue. Almost everyone > in my family eats meat. I sit with them on the table and eat my > vegetarian meals. I do not have any anger or contempt or prejudice > against my brothers and sisters whether they are part of my immediate > family or not and whether they are Indians of some caste or belong to > some other nationality. My dear father who passed away some years ago > also ate meat. It did not lessen my love for him in anyway. > > You say the following about yourself, " What I see is just people, what > Indians seem to see is colored by caste and prejudice. " > > Richard, there are over 1 billion Indians. I doubt you know them all. > Your confidence in making such a statement is completely misplaced and > not appreciated by me. > > Namaste and love to all > > Yours in Bhagavan > Harsha > Namaste Harsha, On the surface there is some truth in what Richard says, and on my visits to India I noticed some of the same conditions. However it is pretty generalised as you say.There is a difference in many case between Brahmin and the other broad castes such as Sudras,Vaisayas and non caste Dalits. My family are a mix of vegetarians and meat eaters, and some meat eaters are the gentlest and most loving but cannot seem to make the connection between the animal and its suffering and the food on their plate. There seems to be a cognitive dissonance with regard to this, and just goes to show the mind and its divisions, combined with emotion and feeling/energy can be most deceiving on the levels of awareness in the vijnanamayakosa. They may not be awareness from that level at all but from a highly developed Manomayakosa----love or the manifestations of sakti prana come through all.....It is still a mystery to me and can only be some kind of cognitive dissonance...Cheers --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 , " Era " <mi_nok wrote: > > Mouna > Yes, vegetarian diet is the " spiritual " way of eating. As a > missionary for Sant Mat in Hungary I was asked to show horror movies > about slaughterhouses... many could not stick to the vegetarian diet > and complained about made feeling guilty... Since than I dislike to > make ppl feel guilty for their ways. > > Era > Dear Era, greetings I think it's all a matter of increasing awareness/consciousness and connections. Put it in the right way, whatever displaces the veil that hinders our access to Awareness, we should be grateful for. Guilt is just another form the Ego takes to feel real. In many cases we go for the smooth reply, and the " everything is going to be allright " kind of feeling, and then the non-existent ego continues showing its tail, and nothing happened here... On other occassions, someone smashes us with a horror film (being animal slaughter, war or cancer lungs wideopen), or puts our delicate face right in the mud, and that was, by Bhagavan's Grace, the only way to learn our lesson. If we miss that opportunity, it will surely come back, and maybe even stronger shocks will be needed. Yours in Bhagavan, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 , " Era " <mi_nok wrote: > > > > > > > I see no merit in attacking somone who is not vegetarian ! > > > > > > Era Namaste, There is no point as the mind that eats meat is the manomayakosa and is developed that way. If the Vijnanamayakosa is not developed with prajna there is no point of reference in common......As I have said with spiritual people it is a case of cognitive dissonance....Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Dear friends sometimes i do wonder how "innocentnaive" or plain ignorant even "followers" of ADVAITA can be. For this person ADVAITA is it. Fullpoint. Of course PREJUDICE is an integral part of "humans" - at least of those who do not try to live nonduality. This prejudice is a clear sign where people "stand". Of course there are so many terrible prejudices in india, one of the "countries" with the most highly developed "civilization". Why should it be otherwise? Europe, "the white people" are full with terrible prejudices - even after the massmurdering of gypsies, homosexuals, jews and other minorities not so long ago. Looking at the situation of this "world" now tear can come into your eyes - if you are not really centered in your SELF - or if you prefer to live a life with closed eyes. Vegetarism is like all -ism a dogma and should neither be preached nor followed in an selfpunishing way. It c a n be a real wonderful way of living - i f a person lives accordingly in every field of life. Not only in eating. We all have the most wonderful and authentic "leitfigur" possible - the most wonderful authentic "guru" possible. And this guru"s life is fully documented - so in each way of life we can follow his example - because his example was never theoretical but always practical down to the earth. in His Grace michael Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.4/1566 - Release 22/07/2008 6.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Dear Harsha, If I may make one more generalization, I have found the Indians here to be caring, loving people, who seem unusually open and receptive to people from other places. Never have I been anywhere in the world where I feel more welcome that here in India. One thing that I have heard again and again from people here is " We help each other. " This is not always the case, but still seems such a strong value. We are very happy living here, and in large part due to the people with which we come into contact. In terms of deep knowledge of India though, I am still just a baby, trying to learn about a new land and people. I apologize again since my ignorance has offended. Om Arunachala, Richard , " harshaimtm " wrote: > > , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > , " harshaimtm " <harsha@> > > wrote: > > > > > > , " Richard Clarke " <richard@> > > > wrote: > > Namaste Harsha, > > > > On the surface there is some truth in what Richard says, and on my > > visits to India I noticed some of the same conditions. However it is > > pretty generalised as you say.There is a difference in many case > > between Brahmin and the other broad castes such as Sudras,Vaisayas > > and non caste Dalits. > > > > > Dear Tony and Richard, > > Yes, you are right of course. There is an underlying aspect of truth > to what you are saying. > > I was objecting to the generalization of caste prejudice across all > Indian in the context of meat eating. In many Indian families, there > are both vegetarians and meat eaters and they do not have contempt for > each other. > > The truth is that bias, prejudice, racism, casteism, religious > intolerance in some form are part of the human condition and no > country or culture in the East or the West is exempt from it. > > I apologize to Richard and others if I hurt their feelings. However, I > felt candid expression of my discomfort with those remarks was needed. > > Namaste and love to all > > Yours in Bhagavan > Harsha > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 vanakkam harsha-ji, namaste-ji! good to have you back... all these words being exchanged about sattvism, vegetarianism and so on in the most civil way is not going to set the tone right... perhaps if we could eat without desire, then that will be part of the Enquiry that Bhagavan says we should be doing because at the end of the day if there is an answer for "who is it that wants to know?", the Truth hasnt been Realized... anbudan TAT TVAM ASI ...--- On Wed, 7/23/08, harshaimtm wrote: harshaimtm Re: New posting on village life in Tamil Nadu Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 12:36 AM , "Tony OClery" <aoclery > wrote:>> , "harshaimtm" <harsha@> > wrote:> >> > , "Richard Clarke" <richard@>> > wrote:> Namaste Harsha,> > On the surface there is some truth in what Richard says, and on my > visits to India I noticed some of the same conditions. However it is > pretty generalised as you say.There is a difference in many case > between Brahmin and the other broad castes such as Sudras,Vaisayas > and non caste Dalits.> Dear Tony and Richard,Yes, you are right of course. There is an underlying aspect of truthto what you are saying. I was objecting to the generalization of caste prejudice across allIndian in the context of meat eating. In many Indian families, thereare both vegetarians and meat eaters and they do not have contempt foreach other. The truth is that bias, prejudice, racism, casteism, religiousintolerance in some form are part of the human condition and nocountry or culture in the East or the West is exempt from it. I apologize to Richard and others if I hurt their feelings. However, Ifelt candid expression of my discomfort with those remarks was needed.Namaste and love to allYours in BhagavanHarsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 , mango tree <oldmangotree wrote: > > > vanakkam harsha-ji, > > namaste-ji! good to have you back... > > all these words being exchanged about sattvism, vegetarianism and so on in the most civil way is not going to set the tone right... > > perhaps if we could eat without desire, then that will be part of the Enquiry that Bhagavan says we should be doing because at the end of the day if there is an answer for " who is it that wants to know? " , the Truth hasnt been Realized... > > anbudan > > > TAT TVAM ASI ... > oh yes my friend. ain't that so! thank you. _()_ yosy ps. hehehe somehow, by coincidence, this has been posted right now on another forum: the truly fearless having nothing to protect or gain cause no harm. > --- On Wed, 7/23/08, harshaimtm wrote: > > harshaimtm > Re: New posting on village life in Tamil Nadu > > Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 12:36 AM , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@ > wrote: > > > > , " harshaimtm " <harsha@> > > wrote: > > > > > > , " Richard Clarke " <richard@> > > > wrote: > > Namaste Harsha, > > > > On the surface there is some truth in what Richard says, and on my > > visits to India I noticed some of the same conditions. However it is > > pretty generalised as you say.There is a difference in many case > > between Brahmin and the other broad castes such as Sudras,Vaisayas > > and non caste Dalits. > > > > Dear Tony and Richard, > > Yes, you are right of course. There is an underlying aspect of truth > to what you are saying. > > I was objecting to the generalization of caste prejudice across all > Indian in the context of meat eating. In many Indian families, there > are both vegetarians and meat eaters and they do not have contempt for > each other. > > The truth is that bias, prejudice, racism, casteism, religious > intolerance in some form are part of the human condition and no > country or culture in the East or the West is exempt from it. > > I apologize to Richard and others if I hurt their feelings. However, I > felt candid expression of my discomfort with those remarks was needed. > > Namaste and love to all > > Yours in Bhagavan > Harsha > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Dear Group, Harsha-ji and Sada-ji and all, I am sorry to offend. I have found that many are interested in Indian Village life, as well as the deep spiritual thread that flows from India and that flowered in the teaching of Adi Sankara. I thought about whether to even post any of this anywhere, knowing that some would be deeply offended and bothered by it. I finally decided that it was best to show what I saw, as best I could. I then thought that I would make the notice on this highly esteemed group, since I do think there are many in the group to whom these kind of postings are of interest and seem relivant. For reasons I do not understand, I have been put in a place where some of these village activities are shown to me. I somehow feel that it is worthwhile to record what I can and make them available to other. I tried my best to tell what I saw, and did not make any attempt to disguise any role in this that I had, even knowing that criticism from well meaning and good people was sure to come of it. I am still new to India and do not understand much of what I do see. I do see a spirituality that runs like a deep strong river though all levels of life here that I have seen, that expresses itself in more ways that I can imagine. I am also able to document our joyful exploration of Arunachala, which I think is of interest to many. After reading the comments I do not know what is wanted by the group. Clearly some say this should never be in such a group as this, others say the exact opposite. I do see some real discussion coming from this. that is why I took the risk of posting it. Perhaps this discussion can be an aide in our looking within to see the ideas we hold, to see what is real and what is not. If so, then this will have been to good use. If not, I apologize for the disturbance. Richard advaitin , " harshaimtm " wrote: > > Dearest Sada-ji: > > You spoke my heart. Thank you for that. > > Reading about the innocent goat being asked whether it wanted to be > killed for the family feast brought tears to my eyes. Such a post > should not be advertised on this list as most of us are either vegans > or practice some other form of vegetarianism which is based in Ahimsa. > > Originally, these posts from Richard were " letters from Ramanaashram " . > Clearly this post is not consistent with that spirit. > > I have been busy traveling and managing a number personal issues and > have not had the time to be involved in and keeping up with the lists. > > But when I saw this, I wanted to say something. > > The luthar.com and HS websites are being integrated over the summer. > There is a lot of work being done in the background by professionals. > When it is finished, I will announce the new and " improved " blog/website. > > For now, I would like the Advaitin members to accept my apologies. > The post is about an aspect of the Indian culture. While it makes very > interesting reading for some people, it is not appropriate to > advertise it on this list at all. > > In yoga, Ahimsa is the first principle. To transcend the mind and to > be the Self one must see the Self in all. In the relative world, when > violence is made to seem legitimate somehow, a Sadhak must not be > influenced by that. Self-Realization and Ahimsa go together. > > I ask for your forgiveness for this post being advertised here. > > I will communicate my feelings to Richard. > > Namaste and love to all > Harsha > > advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda > <kuntimaddisada@> wrote: > > > > PraNAms to all > > > > My response to the post is not as moderator but just as witnessing > agent! > > > > Previous posts that involve website address that gave glimpse of > Hills of Arunachala and the temples around was to me inspiring > > > > The lost post that involved - particularly the sacrifice of an > innocent goat is rather repelling. There are lot of innocent beings > being hurt in the name of religious practices and if possible we need > to educate the public involved and if not at least keep away from > them. Krishna says - sarvabhuuta hite rataaH - Love for all being is > essential ingredient in growing up. > > > > I request posters to refrain from such posts in future. We do enjoy > the pictures of holy places that we cannot visit otherwise and those > pictures that take the mind to contemplation. I know Richard wants to > share in life-experiences in India but it may be better not to show > everything that goes on since there are things that distracts or > disturbs the mind than make it saatvik. > > > > Adviata involves seeing advaita in dvaita hence it cannot be away > from dvaita. Since our minds are not pure enough to transcend both > good and bad, it is better to stick to the good until we evolve - that > is what is implied in shama and dama, as a part of saadhana. > > > > > > Hari Om! > > Sadananda > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Dear Group, Harsha-ji and Sada-ji and all, I am sorry to offend. I have found that many are interested in Indian Village life, as well as the deep spiritual thread that flows from India and that flowered in the teaching of Adi Sankara. I thought about whether to even post any of this anywhere, knowing that some would be deeply offended and bothered by it. I finally decided that it was best to show what I saw, as best I could. I then thought that I would make the notice on this highly esteemed group, since I do think there are many in the group to whom these kind of postings are of interest and seem relivant. For reasons I do not understand, I have been put in a place where some of these village activities are shown to me. I somehow feel that it is worthwhile to record what I can and make them available to other. I tried my best to tell what I saw, and did not make any attempt to disguise any role in this that I had, even knowing that criticism from well meaning and good people was sure to come of it. I am still new to India and do not understand much of what I do see. I do see a spirituality that runs like a deep strong river though all levels of life here that I have seen, that expresses itself in more ways that I can imagine. I am also able to document our joyful exploration of Arunachala, which I think is of interest to many. After reading the comments I do not know what is wanted by the group. Clearly some say this should never be in such a group as this, others say the exact opposite. I do see some real discussion coming from this. that is why I took the risk of posting it. Perhaps this discussion can be an aide in our looking within to see the ideas we hold, to see what is real and what is not. If so, then this will have been to good use. If not, I apologize for the disturbance. Richard As a brand new member, I found the discussion which ensued as a result of your post to be very useful. I am a bit disappointed that it was cut off. I was gaining what I consider to be insight into the different perspectives on the topic; even from those who found the post " repelling. " I once attended a Voodoo ceremony (I have never practiced this) while I was living in New Orleans. They also sacrificed a goat. I was not happy about this in the least but I was there as an observer. I even went so far as to insist to others that there could be a role for the observer in the ceremony. My point is that the original post may not have done much for me either way but the resulting discussion was very good. I wish it could have continued. Ray Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 , " yosyx " <yosyflug wrote: > > , mango tree <oldmangotree@> > wrote: > > > > > > vanakkam harsha-ji, > > > > namaste-ji! good to have you back... > > > > all these words being exchanged about sattvism, vegetarianism and > so on in the most civil way is not going to set the tone right... Namaste, Realisation is probably not possible without Daya. Daya is at a different level of mind than the manomayakosa. So a person can be a lovely person at the ordinary level and stransmit the sakti prana we all have. However that is common to all, and with a mix of mutal attachment is often read as something different---Daya in fact. When Daya in most cases is at a different level of mind altogether. Vegetarians talking to meat eaters, are speaking different languages with no point of joint reference---then we have 'cognitive dissonance'---carnalitas I call it..............Cheers Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Dear what is "Daya"? tku michael Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1569 - Release 23/07/2008 13.31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Vanakkam Mango-ji, Thanks for your welcome back. I think the matter is settled now with with various parties having given their views. Namaste and love to all Yours in Bhagavan Harsha , mango tree <oldmangotree wrote: > > > vanakkam harsha-ji, > > namaste-ji! good to have you back... > > all these words being exchanged about sattvism, vegetarianism and so on in the most civil way is not going to set the tone right... > > perhaps if we could eat without desire, then that will be part of the Enquiry that Bhagavan says we should be doing because at the end of the day if there is an answer for " who is it that wants to know? " , the Truth hasnt been Realized... > > anbudan > > > TAT TVAM ASI ... > > --- On Wed, 7/23/08, harshaimtm wrote: > > harshaimtm > Re: New posting on village life in Tamil Nadu > > Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 12:36 AM , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@ > wrote: > > > > , " harshaimtm " <harsha@> > > wrote: > > > > > > , " Richard Clarke " <richard@> > > > wrote: > > Namaste Harsha, > > > > On the surface there is some truth in what Richard says, and on my > > visits to India I noticed some of the same conditions. However it is > > pretty generalised as you say.There is a difference in many case > > between Brahmin and the other broad castes such as Sudras,Vaisayas > > and non caste Dalits. > > > > Dear Tony and Richard, > > Yes, you are right of course. There is an underlying aspect of truth > to what you are saying. > > I was objecting to the generalization of caste prejudice across all > Indian in the context of meat eating. In many Indian families, there > are both vegetarians and meat eaters and they do not have contempt for > each other. > > The truth is that bias, prejudice, racism, casteism, religious > intolerance in some form are part of the human condition and no > country or culture in the East or the West is exempt from it. > > I apologize to Richard and others if I hurt their feelings. However, I > felt candid expression of my discomfort with those remarks was needed. > > Namaste and love to all > > Yours in Bhagavan > Harsha > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 , " Michael Bindel " <michael.bindel wrote: > > Dear > > what is " Daya " ? > > tku > > > michael > Namaste Michael, It is, I suppose, ultmate compassion for all and everything.......Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Dear tku so much for your quick reply michael - Tony OClery Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:40 PM Re: New posting on village life in Tamil Nadu , "Michael Bindel" <michael.bindel wrote:>> Dear Tony> > what is "Daya"?> > tku> > > michael> Namaste Michael,It is, I suppose, ultmate compassion for all and everything.......Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1569 - Release 23/07/2008 13.31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Hari OM! Dear Sadaji, referring to your previous post... If you can include the answers for Why Hindus believe in GOD also it will be pleasure and knowledgable to read and understand. With Love & OM! Krishna On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Sitara <smitali17 wrote: Pranams to all,I have to say that I do share Sri Sreenivasajis doubts. Whenever such apost appeared I asked myself the same question: What has this to dowith Vedanta?I can understand the feelings evoked in some of us by those pictures - I would have the same with Rishikesh and River Ganga as I have not yetvisited Arunachala. Watching Aarti in Haridwar on Youtube, I can crytears of joy and devotion, but I do not consider it this lists purposeto nurture such feelings. They have their place, no doubt, but they are still an expression of dvaita and not of advaita.Om shantiSitara> >> -- http://www.chyk.net Smooth roads never make good drivers. Smooth seas never makegood sailors. Clear skies never make good pilots. A problemfree life never makes a strong and good person. Have a toughbut winning day ahead! Be strong enough to accept the challenges of life. Do not ask life, 'Why me?' instead say,'Try me'. " Hindu civilization is something of which I am very proud of.If that is evidence of my being 'communal',then my inner voice tells me, 'SO BE IT' " Krishna PrasadDare to give up the comfort of the 'known' and venture into the 'unknown' The more we know, the more we will come to realize what we do not know.If we want to achieve our true potential and live life to the fullest. As Poojya Gurudev said it, "Open your eyes. Burst your shell. Spread your wings and fly!"Swami ChinmayanandaHate not the sinner - hate the sin; and always hate the sin even with an excess of hatred. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 On these matters who may judge others? Anyway I eat a little fish now and then ( and in a year or few I propably will not ), but at the moment I am more troubled for having to remove ants from my summerhouse, and that cutting the grass is a must here on the west coast. I try to do it slowly, seeing the spiders run. There are advanced beings eating meat and ignorant vegetarians, that's just how it is http://www.ferryfee.com/bluesky/do_not.html Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 > > On these matters who may judge others? > Anyway I eat a little fish now and then ( and in a year or few I > propably will not > ), but at the moment I am more troubled for having to remove ants > from my > summerhouse, and that cutting the grass is a must here on the west > coast. I try to do it slowly, seeing the spiders run. > > There are advanced beings eating meat and ignorant vegetarians, > that's just how it is I just like to add, that after the iron-curtain and ban of of all spirituality was removed in the communist countries among them form Hungary many " western " believers did years of missionary work there. I lost 90% of initiates of Sant Mat due to the rigid vegan diet requirements. AND I FEEL BAD ABOUT THIS. http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat.hu.html Era > > > http://www.ferryfee.com/bluesky/do_not.html > > > > Alan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Dear Era isnt it all about living the TRUTH in daily practice? Arent we really blessed to have found Sri Ramana Maharshi, who is one of the most rare "examples" of AUTHENTICITY? Isnt it enough "just to try" to live according to this lived wisdom ourselves? Isnt it enough to see that everything (trifle or not) may lead to harm - if it is not lived with LOVE? Isnt it enough to feel and see that "human history" is the best example how n o t to live? Vegetarism or not - why make everything a point of harming others? Hitler was an vegetarian.... non-attachment is the answer..... is it really enough to try follow the example of our SadGuru? And Era is it not that when someone does not follow ones "Guru" that this too is okay? Because is not everything going on okay? Is it not the way GD SELF LOVE wants it to be? Is not the SELF everything and ALONE? Era, having lived in different countries amidths many different kind of people, i came to the conclusion, that in the end all is leading to the question: are you ready for the TRUTH are you ready to give up everything for being able to live it? In my personal life i have to accept wholeheartedly that Sri Ramanas answer to a questiona about looking for the SELF is "just perfect" these are my words please looking for SELF you have to be ready to die as you think you are now. Its like someone who wants to dive, someone who pushes his head under water and at the moment he is afraid of dying he gives all his power to survive. Only when you are ready to put this power in your search for the Reality you will succeed. Living now in Hungary and having grown up in Austria immedeately after WWII after Nazism and Shoa the similiarites are fascinating to watch. People are generally clinging to security "havingbeing" - all outside oriented. Very rare it is that you encounter someone who is trying to be "awake". You see it in theirs eyes - dont you? But this too we all have to accept... Hasnt Sri Ramana and others said that only the few are ready for the TRUTH and seemingly it is likewise in every field of life... only the few who are ready to give everything will be successfull. of course success has to be defines by each of us and here again you see the lack of ability and readiness... who is ready to define every concept in hisher life? in gratitude and love michael - Era Thursday, July 24, 2008 4:55 AM Re: New posting on village life in Tamil Nadu > > On these matters who may judge others?> Anyway I eat a little fish now and then ( and in a year or few I > propably will not> ), but at the moment I am more troubled for having to remove ants > from my> summerhouse, and that cutting the grass is a must here on the west > coast. I try to do it slowly, seeing the spiders run.> > There are advanced beings eating meat and ignorant vegetarians,> that's just how it is :)I just like to add, that after the iron-curtain and ban of of allspirituality was removed in the communist countries among them formHungary many "western" believers did years of missionary work there. I lost 90% of initiates of Sant Mat due to the rigid vegan dietrequirements. AND I FEEL BAD ABOUT THIS.http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat.hu.htmlEra> > > http://www.ferryfee.com/bluesky/do_not.html> > > > Alan> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1569 - Release 23/07/2008 13.31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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