Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Dear All,While explaining this Kathopanishad (1.2.21) verse, Sri Shankara says like this:करणानामà¥à¤ªà¤¶à¤®à¤ƒ शयनमॠ। करणजनितसà¥à¤¯à¥ˆà¤•à¤¦à¥‡à¤¶à¤µà¤¿à¤œà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨à¤¸à¥à¤¯ उपशमः शयानसà¥à¤¯ à¤à¤µà¤¤à¤¿à¥¤ यदा चैवं केवलसामानà¥à¤¯à¤µà¤¿à¤œà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤¤à¥ सरà¥à¤µà¤¤à¥‹ यातीव, यदा विशेषविजà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨à¤¸à¥à¤¥à¤ƒ सà¥à¤µà¥‡à¤¨ रूपेण सà¥à¤¥à¤¿à¤¤ à¤à¤µ सनॠमनआदिगतिषॠतदà¥à¤ªà¤¾à¤§à¤¿à¤•à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤¾à¤¤à¥ दूरं वà¥à¤°à¤œà¤¤à¥€à¤µ । Corresponding English meaning as per Swami Gambhiranandaji Maharaj (of Ramakrishna Math) Book is:Sleep is the cessation of the activities of the senses. The delimitation of Consciousness, caused by the senses, ceases for a sleeping man. When the Self is in such a state (of sleep), Its consciousness being of general character, It seems to go, (to be present), everywhere. When It is in a state of particularized consciousness, It, though really stationary by Its own nature, seems to travel far, in accordance with the movement of the mind etc., because It is conditioned by those mind etc. My question in this regard is:Though the meaning seems to be simple, what are these " General Character " and " Particularized " ? (i.e., केवलसामानà¥à¤¯à¤µà¤¿à¤œà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨ and विशेषविजà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨ ) ?The learned group members can please throw some light on this. With regards,Anupam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Dear Anupam-ji. Your Sanskrit quotes are garbled and not readable. About the translation, are you sure about the word 'delimitation' in the second sentence. I think 'limitation' would suit the context. I am not sure. The following statement looks spatial (and, therefore, temporal too) to my eyes: " Its consciousness being of " *general character*, It seems to go, (to be present), everywhere " . The words " go " and " be present everywhere " are only indicative of spacelessness and, therefore, timelessness. Something cannot be present everywhere because it is a limited something. " Particularized " would then naturally be the opposite of the above where a mind working in and bound by space-time has emerged from the previous absence of space-time. Best regards. Madathil Nair ___________________________ advaitin , " anupam srivatsav " < > While explaining this Kathopanishad (1.2.21) verse, Sri Shankara says like > this: (Sanskrit garbled) > Corresponding English meaning as per Swami Gambhiranandaji Maharaj (of > Ramakrishna Math) Book is: > > Sleep is the cessation of the activities of the senses. The delimitation of > Consciousness, caused by the senses, ceases for a sleeping man. When the > Self is in such a state (of sleep), Its consciousness being of *general > character*, It seems to go, (to be present), everywhere. When It is in a > state of *particularized consciousness*, It, though really stationary by Its > own nature, seems to travel far, in accordance with the movement of the mind > etc., because It is conditioned by those mind etc. > > My question in this regard is: > Though the meaning seems to be simple, what are these " General Character " > and " Particularized " ? (i.e., केवलसामानà¥à¤¯à¤µà¤¿ जà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨ and विशेषविजà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨ ) ? > > The learned group members can please throw some light on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Dear Sri Madathil Nair ji, Namaste. > Your Sanskrit quotes are garbled and not readable. I do not know why Sanskrit quotes were garbled. > About the translation, are you sure about the word 'delimitation' in > the second sentence. I think 'limitation' would suit the context. I > am not sure. I checked with the book again and found the word " delimitation " only. In my original posting I used " The delimitation of Consciousness, caused by the senses.... " In the said book, there is a foot note for the " Consciousness " which runs thus: " Then Consciousness has such limited expressions as, 'I am a man', 'I see a blue thing', and so on - by Ananda Giri " > " Its consciousness being of " *general character*, It seems to go, (to > be present), everywhere " . > > The words " go " and " be present everywhere " are only indicative of > spacelessness and, therefore, timelessness. Something cannot be > present everywhere because it is a limited something. Space and time do not exit in Sushupti state. But, causation exist in Sushupti too. Assuming that *Consciousness is of general character* means *being without any upadhis*, we know that causation an upadhi. Since causation exist in sushupti, so, how a sleeping man's *Consciousness is of general character* ? I feel some contradiction here. Presently I am reading Katha and so, I am getting so many doubts. Please bear with me and explain. > " Particularized " would then naturally be the opposite of the above > where a mind working in and bound by space-time has emerged from the > previous absence of space-time. General and particular are opposed to each other. So, when *particularized*, the consciousness flows through the senses and hence is limited. With regards, Anupam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Assuming that *Consciousness is of general character* means *being without any upadhis*, we know that causation an upadhi. Since causation exist in sushupti, so, how a sleeping man's *Consciousness is of general character* ? I feel some contradiction here. praNAms Hare Krishna Does shankara bhAshya anywhere says, there exists *upAdhi* in sushupti?? Kindly clarify...On the face reading of the statement : *consciousness is of general character*, I'd like to reckon that pure consciousness itself intuited as unlimited (without any frame of upAdhi) in sleep which is somehow manifests in the other two states as subject (vishayi) and object (vishaya).... Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Shree anupam srivatsav - PraNams The sanskrit fonts came fine when I received through on my computer. I am replying back to see if that is preserved in the reply post. Surprised to see Nairji comments. May it depends on the mail/computer etc. I am copying the whole post to see how it returns. Hari Om! Sadananda--- On Tue, 8/12/08, anupam srivatsav <anupam.srivatsav wrote: anupam srivatsav <anupam.srivatsav aasiino duuram vrajatiadvaitin Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 2:55 AM Dear All,While explaining this Kathopanishad (1.2.21) verse, Sri Shankara says like this:करणानामà¥à¤ªà¤¶à¤®à¤ƒ शयनमॠ। करणजनितसà¥à¤¯à¥ˆà¤•à¤¦à¥‡à¤¶à¤µà¤¿à¤œà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨à¤¸à¥à¤¯ उपशमः शयानसà¥à¤¯ à¤à¤µà¤¤à¤¿à¥¤ यदा चैवं केवलसामानà¥à¤¯à¤µà¤¿à¤œà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤¤à¥ सरà¥à¤µà¤¤à¥‹ यातीव, यदा विशेषविजà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨à¤¸à¥à¤¥à¤ƒ सà¥à¤µà¥‡à¤¨ रूपेण सà¥à¤¥à¤¿à¤¤ à¤à¤µ सनॠमनआदिगतिषॠतदà¥à¤ªà¤¾à¤§à¤¿à¤•à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤¾à¤¤à¥ दूरं वà¥à¤°à¤œà¤¤à¥€à¤µ ।Corresponding English meaning as per Swami Gambhiranandaji Maharaj (of Ramakrishna Math) Book is:Sleep is the cessation of the activities of the senses. The delimitation of Consciousness, caused by the senses, ceases for a sleeping man. When the Self is in such a state (of sleep), Its consciousness being of general character, It seems to go, (to be present), everywhere. When It is in a state of particularized consciousness, It, though really stationary by Its own nature, seems to travel far, in accordance with the movement of the mind etc., because It is conditioned by those mind etc.My question in this regard is:Though the meaning seems to be simple, what are these "General Character" and "Particularized"? (i.e., केवलसामानà¥à¤¯à¤µà¤¿à¤œà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨ and विशेषविजà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨ ) ?The learned group members can please throw some light on this.With regards,Anupam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Oh Sadaji, Nairji got it garbled again. Perhaps, he has ignorant eyes, Or, to pass the buck on, His PC has something amiss In its labyrinthine brain. To make things worse, I noticed an additional problem with your mail. It has several unncessary 'i's (letter " i " ). Where have they come from? Best regards. Nair _____________ advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > Shree anupam srivatsav - PraNams >  > The sanskrit fonts came fine when I received through on my computer.  I am replying back to see if that is preserved in the reply post. Surprised to see Nairji comments. May it depends on the mail/computer etc. I am  copying the whole post to see how it returns. >  > Hari Om! > Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Anupam-ji. Bhaskar-ji has answered your doubt beautifully. Regards. Madathil Nair _____________ > Anupamji's doubt: Assuming that *Consciousness is of general character* > means *being without any upadhis*, we know that causation an upadhi. > Since causation exist in sushupti, so, how a sleeping man's > *Consciousness is of general character* ? I feel some contradiction > here. _______________ advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > Does shankara bhAshya anywhere says, there exists *upAdhi* in sushupti?? > Kindly clarify...On the face reading of the statement : *consciousness is > of general character*, I'd like to reckon that pure consciousness itself > intuited as unlimited (without any frame of upAdhi) in sleep which is > somehow manifests in the other two states as subject (vishayi) and object > (vishaya).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 PraNAms - the fonts came back in tact in my mail on my computer. anupama Srivatsavji may I know what font you have used? Now regarding the question you raised here is my understanding. The all pervasiveness is the general character of the consciousness - more its swaruupa laxaNa. The reflected consciousness in the mind is the particular jiiva - called pratibimba caitanya. The reflection is limited by the reflecting medium. Shankara says although the reflected consciousness - referred to as particular jiiva consciousness, is although limited - it reflects where ever the mind goes. During perception, the traditional explanation is the mind goes out with the senses and grasps the objects of perception. Hence Shankara says - although the conditioned consciousness although conditioned by the upaadhiis and therefore stationary due to the movement of the mind, it appears to move. Deep sleep is the cessesation of all body consciousness - hence karaNajanitasya ekadeshavijnaanasya upashamaH - shayanasya bhavati. Since the mind is now not traveling any where, the conditioned consciousness remains in its place. When one is awake due to movement of the mind the reflected consciousness appears to move also, although pure consciousness being all pervading cannot move any where (achalam). Hope this helps. Hari Om! Sadananda Dear All,While explaining this Kathopanishad (1.2.21) verse, Sri Shankara says like this:करणानामà¥à¤ªà¤¶à¤®à¤ƒ शयनमॠ। करणजनितसà¥à¤¯à¥ˆà¤•à¤¦à¥‡à¤¶à¤µà¤¿à¤œà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨à¤¸à¥à¤¯ उपशमः शयानसà¥à¤¯ à¤à¤µà¤¤à¤¿à¥¤ यदा चैवं केवलसामानà¥à¤¯à¤µà¤¿à¤œà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤¤à¥ सरà¥à¤µà¤¤à¥‹ यातीव, यदा विशेषविजà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨à¤¸à¥à¤¥à¤ƒ सà¥à¤µà¥‡à¤¨ रूपेण सà¥à¤¥à¤¿à¤¤ à¤à¤µ सनॠमनआदिगतिषॠतदà¥à¤ªà¤¾à¤§à¤¿à¤•à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤¾à¤¤à¥ दूरं वà¥à¤°à¤œà¤¤à¥€à¤µ ।Corresponding English meaning as per Swami Gambhiranandaji Maharaj (of Ramakrishna Math) Book is:Sleep is the cessation of the activities of the senses. The delimitation of Consciousness, caused by the senses, ceases for a sleeping man. When the Self is in such a state (of sleep), Its consciousness being of general character, It seems to go, (to be present), everywhere. When It is in a state of particularized consciousness, It, though really stationary by Its own nature, seems to travel far, in accordance with the movement of the mind etc., because It is conditioned by those mind etc.My question in this regard is:Though the meaning seems to be simple, what are these "General Character" and "Particularized" ? (i.e., केवलसामानà¥à¤¯à¤µà¤¿à¤œà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨ and विशेषविजà¥à¤žà¤¾à¤¨ ) ?The learned group members can please throw some light on this.With regards,Anupam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Yes Nairji - I have enough problems with little little 'i's and computer attributing some more to me. wishful thinking is little i every where may become big I sometime, although time itself is the little i's imagination. I just noticed I have typed plane for plain in one of my posts - this is because I have been trying to get some plane tickets! - I do not know who invented this English! Hari Om! Sadanadna--- On Tue, 8/12/08, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote: Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair To make things worse, I noticed an additional problem with your mail. It has several unncessary 'i's (letter "i"). Where have they come from?_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Dear Sri Sadanandaji, > The all pervasiveness is the general character of the consciousness - more its swaruupa laxaNa. > > The reflected consciousness in the mind is the particular jiiva - called pratibimba caitanya. The reflection is > etc...... Thanks for the insight. I think, this must be alright for me. Let me contemplate over this for a while and come back should I have any other doubts regarding this. My thanks are due to Bhaskar ji and Madathil Nair ji too who sufficiently shed some light on the subject. >>the fonts came back in tact in my mail on my computer. anupama Srivatsavji may I know what font you have used? I was using Mangal Fonts. This font many people use in gmail groups. I am not sure how it works with . Since I am using gmail ID, I am easily getting the fonts intact. But, when I checked in the archives, the fonts were missing. If you require, I can send you the fonts. With regards, Anupam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Dear Sri Bhaskar ji, > Does shankara bhAshya anywhere says, there exists *upAdhi* in sushupti?? > Kindly clarify...On the face reading of the statement : *consciousness is of > general character*, I'd like to reckon that pure consciousness itself > intuited as unlimited (without any frame of upAdhi) in sleep which is > somehow manifests in the other two states as subject (vishayi) and object > (vishaya).... I am not sure if Acharya Shankara has anywhere said that *Upadhi* exist in *sushupti*. But, Sushupti itself is *ajnana upahita chaitanyam*. Therefore it is conditioned. In other words, Upadhi exists in Sushupti. My one more doubt which was there for long was: When Jiva is in Sushupti, he experiences joy. But, in sushupti, ajnana exists. After sleep one says that he *enjoyed* his sleep. How one can derive joy from ajnana? Given that only in Jnana one can experience Joy, how in ajnana one experiences Joy? (Though this Joy expressed in the waking state as sukham aham aswapsam (सà¥à¤–महमसà¥à¤µà¤¾à¤ªà¥à¤¸à¤®à¥), it was originally experienced in the sushupti state only). With regards, Anupam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 advaitin , " anupam srivatsav " <anupam.srivatsav wrote: My one more doubt which was there for long was: > > When Jiva is in Sushupti, he experiences joy. But, in sushupti, > ajnana exists. After sleep one says that he *enjoyed* his sleep. How > one can derive joy from ajnana? Given that only in Jnana one can > experience Joy, how in ajnana one experiences Joy? (Though this Joy > expressed in the waking state as sukham aham aswapsam > (सà¥à¤–महमसà¥à¤µà¤¾à¤ªà¥à¤¸à¤®à¥), it was originally experienced in the sushupti state > only). > Namaste Anupam-ji Regarding your doubt about the 'experience' of joy in sleep, please see Nos.211 to 252 in the dialogue on advaita on the following page: http://www.geocities.com/profvk/advaitadialoguepage2.html PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Dear Prof. Sri VK ji, Thanks a lot for the reply. I have gone through the lines between 211 and 252. There in line 244, the entry goes like this: " 244. G: Scriptures say: The jIva which was one with the BMI, now goes back to the Self, during the sleep of the BMI. " My question is: When the Jiva goes back to the Self, it realizes its identity with Brahman. But, in Sushupti, it does not go back to the Self, I suppose. It goes back only to the Ishwara, where unspecified ajnana is still present, whereas in the Self, no such ajnana is present. Can you please clarify this more? Thanks in advance. Anupam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Anupam-ji. I am sure Professor-ji will clarify your doubt. In the meanwhile, let me look at it from a pedestrian angle. What is ajnAna?: That I am limited, I am the BMI etc. Who has this ajnAna?: That entity which thinks that it is limited, it is the BMI etc. Who goes to sleep?: That same entity. What does it mean?: It means that that entity which had ajnAna has, at least for the time being, forgotten his nagging feeling that he is limited and he is the BMI. That entity is no more aware of the BMI or itself as an entity. Has the entity now merged with Ishwara or the Self?: It cannot merge with the Self because the Self cannot brook a merger or addition. The entity itself is Self in its true nature. In that sense, it would not need any merger either or it has nothing other than itself to merge with. Now if a merger with Ishwara is postulated as plausible, then the entity should be aware of its being with Ishwara – perhaps on His lap or close to where he is (like Vaikunta). If not, it is as good as `being with the Self'. None of us are aware of being in the company of God in deep sleep. So, the question itself is rather naive. What happened to the ajnAna?: The answer is another question. Has it any validity without an entity being there to be aware of it? In conclusion, the entity itself is ajnAna. In the Self, that is Knowledge, it is and has never been there. Let, us, therefore, disregard it and turn our eyes towards the Light of Truth that we are. Somebody said recently in another Group: If you are praying to attain or achieve something, then better disregard all that you don't have and know that you have all. We need to similarly disregard this ajnAna entity and think Brahman. Best regards. Madathil Nair ___ advaitin , " anupam srivatsav " <anupam.srivatsav wrote: > > Dear Prof. Sri VK ji, > > Thanks a lot for the reply. I have gone through the lines between 211 > and 252. There in line 244, the entry goes like this: > > " 244. G: Scriptures say: The jIva which was one with the BMI, > now goes back to the Self, during the sleep of the BMI. " > > My question is: When the Jiva goes back to the Self, it realizes its > identity with Brahman. But, in Sushupti, it does not go back to the > Self, I suppose. It goes back only to the Ishwara, where unspecified > ajnana is still present, whereas in the Self, no such ajnana is > present. > > Can you please clarify this more? > > Thanks in advance. > Anupam. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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