Meditation Vs nitya karma

[Guest guest]

--- On Wed, 10/15/08, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:

 

 

Kindly pardon me if I hurt your feelings...your very first comment *boring*

about puja vidhAna forced me to think in that way...

 

Bhaskarji - PraNAms.

 

There is no question of hurting. I was restating my statement correctly to avoid

misinterpretations.

 

Now question of injunctions. There was discussion on this topic related to this

- Ref.B.Gita Ch. III Shankara Bhaashya introduction to the ch. Taking the

jnaana karma samucchaya vaada, shankara again addresses the injunctions and the

taking the purvapakshii's position that karma has to be done as there are Vedic

injunctions - if it is not done one will incur pratyavaaya paapam.

 

Shankara rejects the arguments.

 

Non-performance cannot produce anything (pratyavaaya) since absence cannot be a

cause for production. What it does is it does not reduce the sin. It contributes

to non-reduction of praarabda karma - in all nitya karmas we chant - samasta

durita kshayaartham aham idam karishye - I am doing this for the reduction of

all my paapam. In the morning sandhyaavandanam also .. paapebhyo rakshantaam..

of whatever was done in the night!

 

Hypothetical argument: If suppose non-performance causes or produces pratyavaaya

then Vedas become apramaaNam. If non-performance produces we have a case of

abhaavaat bhaavotpattiH - a production of existence from non-existence thing.

Vedas will be providing an idea that is contradictory to other pramANas.

 

If non-performance of nitya karma produces aagaami karma then the performance

will generate what? - According to miimaamsa performance does not produce any

merits - we have a case of performance does not do any thing but non-performance

gives troubles.

 

PramANam is anadigata abhaadita arthavishaka jnaanatvam - it has to give phala

prayojanam - as part of shad lingas. Vedas now giving us a pain - since doing is

a struggle and not doing is more painful. Veda vaak becomes a pramANam for what?

- To give us pain either way? - ( I know people are sentimental but I am just

putting forth arguments presented in the discussion)

 

Purvapakshi says - Veda vak gives new power to abhaava - abhaava of nitya karma.

Vedas have that power to produce a result for abhaava.

If that is the argument then Vedas again become apramaaNam since pramaaNa is

jnaapakam not kaarakam. PramaaNa should reveal not produce a result of an action

- just as jnaanedriyas which are pramANas give knowledge and are different from

karmendriyas which produce.

 

Therefore non-performance can not cause sins; but will not reduce the sins.

Non-sweeping the floor will not make the floor dirtier but will not remove the

dust on the floor. And performance will purify the mind.

 

Karma and jnaana have to be sequential not as purvapakshi wants as mixing of the

two - Until one can become yogaaruudhaH.

 

When I said I get bored - does that mean I am immature. Prabably. I get bored

with lot of things in the world starting from the useless US presidential

debates. I rarely I turn TV on because most of it is boring. Now I realize that

I could be immature - since I should enjoy everything since everything is His

vibhuuti, right? No sir, unfortunately I tolerate certain things and I try to

avoid certain things and I go after certain things - all though I do understand

that sarvam khalu idam brahma - all that I see is Brahman. Sama dRishTi means

take things as they come - even if it is boring but not necessarily going after

boring things. Hence I do not go and do as part of Lord's wish; but if I am put

in a position to do, I will do what need to be done as that too as Lord's wish.

 

All injunctions are for karmayogi - chittasya suddhaye karma na tu vastuupa

labhyate - all actions are for purificaition and not for gaining moksha. yoginaH

karama kurvanti sangham tyaktvaa aatama suddhaye - Yogis perform action for

purification. Yes there are veda vihita karmaas for gruhastaas - but these are

constrained by kaala and desha niyamita karmaas. We do not have those

varnaasrama dharmaas - yet we do have some obligatory duties as husband as a

wife as a son and as daughter.

That is my understanding. I am follwing my swadharma!

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Pranams to group members,

 

I have read only a few chapters of the Gita following the plain simple

meaning.

 

After reading the Sadaji's post with my little knowledge, I felt those

ideas are quite in line with the spirit of Gita. The boredom felt by

Shri Sadaji for mechanical pujas reminds me the sloka ' yadaa te moha

kalilalam buddhir vyatitarishyati, tada gantaasi nirvedam srOtavyasya

srutasya cha. May be it is the same type of nirveda.

 

And another verse which came to my mind 'Yavaanardha udapaane sarvatah

samplutOdake tavaan sarveshu vedeshu braahmanasya vijaanatah'. When

the entire world is being seen as a vibhUti of the Paramaatman, is

there a necessity for performance of mechanical pujas.

 

Another verse which came to my mind is Yastvaatmaratireva syaat atma

truptascha maanavah Atmanyevacha santustah tasya kaaryam navidyate.

 

All these sva dharmaacharana, performance nitya karmas are for the

beginers in spirituality depending on the adhikara.Krishna's intention

is to get rid of karmabandha but not to get entagled in karmas.

 

From the inroductoy remarks of sankara before his commentary on Gita

the Svadharma is prescribed for 'those persons whose minds come under

the sway of the defects of sorrow ,delusion etc there verily follows,

as a matter of course, abandonining their own duties and resorting to

prohibited ones. Even when they engage in their own duties their

actions with speech , mind ,body etc are certainly motivated by

hankering for rewards and accomponied by egoism' .

 

Later depending on the adhikara krishna asks us to abandon all forms

of rites and rituals and dutities take refuge in me. I shall free you

from all.

 

For my little knowledged intellect it appears that the swadharma

prescription is dependent on the adhikara of the sadhaka but can not

universally forced on everybody.

 

I know these are too big things to comment about but to expose my

understanding and to get corrected by the senior group members I dared

to make this post.

 

with regards,

 

Moses Yesupadam

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramesh-ji,

 

Good point! I suppose that I see ritual as a mechanical act,

performed possibly without attention in a routine way. And, of course,

meditation may also be performed in this way! But it also seems that there is

clear benefit from meditation performed properly – stillness of mind, ability

to direct attention, sharper senses, even improved health etc. These can be

seen very quickly. Is this also the case with ritual? Maybe it is, I admit that

I do not know. I had the idea that maybe one did not necessarily expect to see

the benefits in this life…

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Ramesh

Krishnamurthy

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:45 PM

advaitin

Re: Meditation Vs nitya karma

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not my intention to get into a debate here but I have a small query.

What in your opinion is " meditation " and how different is it from a

" ritual " ?

 

As far as I can see, the difference is largely a matter of semantics.

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Prescribed routines (pUja etc.) performed, either in an involved or

an uninvolved manner, definitely help. Involvement grants an

advantage. It trains and disciplines the mind.

 

Let us take a pUja for example. The person who performs it is

required to remain in a particular posture for quite some time

irrespective of whether he is involved or uninvolved in what he is

doing. That itself is a big physical discipline from my point of

view. I find it hard to sit without unnecessary movements even for a

few minutes. I envy those who can sit through pUjAs and spiritual

ceremonies for long hours without shifting position, most often in a

very stuffy and smoky atmosphere.

 

To my eyes, all spiritual prescriptions and injunctions have a

definite concealed purpose in them. Abiding by them definitely

helps. I do chant the sahasranAmAs and other hymns twice daily and

whenever I am free. I find that this practice has helped and I can

boldy say without any iota of doubt that the sahasranAmAs are

constructed in such a way as to regulate our breathing. Chanting

them even in an uninvolved manner, therefore, has a salutary effect

on the mind. If the chant can be done with some discipline of

posture, the good that would result can be several-fold.

 

This doesn't mean that one who is born in a different culture in a

different land needs to follow the Indian injuctions. If the message

of India is universal, then he can follow the injuctions of the faith

he is born into. Afterall, that is a given which we cannot change.

It is the Lord's wish. Hope this answers Shri Moses Yesupadam.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

hare krishna,namaskaramsi fully endorse what you have said.enlightenment is not just for brahmins who have to follow their dharma of rituals etc. but for all the human beings.this list consists not only the varnas classified in our culture but foriegners who if have the desire for knowledge are equally elligible for such knowledge.it is one's own conviction and choice.lord krishna blesses all who seek him sincerely and to mention that a true devotee can reach with just offering a leaf of thulsi or a spoon of water.in lord krishnabaskaran -- On Wed, 15/10/08, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote:kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada Re: Meditation Vs nitya karmaadvaitin Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 4:43 PM

 

I do my vandanam in my own way and that is my choice.

 

.. As regards to vandanam - not only at sandhya but all the time to that glorious presence helps. At least 3 times required but all the time is the best! If one does not understand, it is better to follow. If one understands one adopts.

 

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[Guest guest]

i fully endorse what you have said.enlightenment is not just for brahmins who have to follow their dharma of rituals etc. but for all the human beings.this list consists not only the varnas classified in our culture but foriegners who if have the desire for knowledge are equally elligible for such knowledge.it is one's own conviction and choice.

lord krishna blesses all who seek him sincerely and to mention that a true devotee can reach with just offering a leaf of thulsi or a spoon of water.

 

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

I think this discussion is going out of the way!! This thread is not meant to discuss who is eligible for mOksha & who is not!! Just I was trying to findout whether it is acceptable to violate dharmic injunctions, citing mundane excuses & replacing with substitutes...There is a stipulated karma for each varNashrami & my contention is that one has to adhere to it in order to protect his svadharma coz. inturn dharma itself protect him...(dharmO rakshati rakshitaH)...Ofcourse, god is so merciful to accept patraM (leaves), pushpaM (flowers) phalaM (fruits) tOyaM (water) from his devotees..but it does not mean we can have sumptuous food for lunch & dinner & offering god ONLY patraM & tOyaM :-))

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Shri Shankara's rejection of jnAna karma samuccaya (combination of jnAna and karma) is based on the fact that once jnAna has dawned,

the person has no longer any identification with his body and mind. Karma is possible only when there is such an identification. So Shri

Shankara says that combining jnAna and karma is not possible at all. The Mimamsakas who adhere to the theory of combination of jnAna and

karma do not accept the possibility of a person becoming a jnAni during his lifetime. So what they understand by jnAna is only

paroksha jnAna and not aparoksha anubhUti. Shri Shankara also does not say that aparoksha jnAna and karma cannot be combined. According

to the Gita any action performed by a jnAni is akarma and not karma. For this reason also there cannot be a combination of jnAna

and karma in the sense in which the word `jnAna ` is used by Shri Shankara.

Humble praNAms Sri Sastri prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Thanks a lot for sharing your invaluable thoughts on one's own dharma & clear clarification on jnAna karma samucchaya vAda. I think, its just an unjustified linking to one's svAdharma with jnAna-karma samucchaya vAda just to skip the vedic injunctions...Thanks again for your clarification prabhuji.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Yes there are veda vihita karmaas for gruhastaas - but these are constrained by kaala and desha niyamita karmaas. We do not have those varnaasrama dharmaas - yet we do have some obligatory duties as husband as a wife as a son and as daughter.

praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Kindly pardon me if I am stretching this too far...As per your observation, it seems you have agreed that there_are_some obligatory duties for householders..dont you think these obligatory duties are vEda vihita & by not following this we are going against vedic/shAstric declaration?? Ofcourse, there is some space & time constraints in this modern day to observe some rituals..But do you think just to give arghya in saNdhya, to do gAyatri & to do simple devatArchana at the home have any space & time constraints?? I dont think we can give inadequate excuses like this when we are *enjoying* the other benifits of *gruhasthAshrama*. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar