Gita Satsangh Chapter 12: The Path of Devotion to God Realization

[Guest guest]

Namaste Satsanghis:

 

We really didn't have much of a Satsangh in terms of interaction

between the members during the past several months. Since we have

completed this important chapter on the Path of Devotion, it will be

very useful if we can contemplate on the following key questions that

highlighted the conversation between Arjuna and Lord Krishna:

They are:

 

(1) Should One Worship a Personal or an Impersonal God?

(2) What are the four Paths to God Realization explained in this

chapter? Why four Paths?

(3) Why Karma-Yoga is recommended to be the Best Starting Point

for God Realization?

(4) What are the Attributes of a Devotee that we can gather from

this Chapter?

(5) Finally why One Should Sincerely Strive to Develop Divine

Qualities?

 

By discussing on these above questions, we will be able get better

insights on the Path of Devotion. This is a great opportunity for the

silent members to break their silence. With greater participation

through discussions, we all can immensely reap the benefits.

 

Also the end of this chapter signifies that in our journey to

freedom, we have reached an important milestone and road junction.

The entire Gita explains the Mahavakya (great saying) " tat tvam asi "

(hat it is!). The first six chapters describe tvam or about the

manifested Brahman as a Jiva (microcosm); the second six chapters

explain Ishwara (macrocosm) and the last six chapters provide the

underlined unity of the Atman of the Jiva and the Brahman of the

Ishwara. Until we complete the entire Gita, we will not able to see

the unobservable but ever-present unity!

 

I will be an silent observer and when all the discussions get

completed during the next several months, I do plan to compile the

discussion and write an essay on the above questions.

 

I earnestly request everyone to participate on this new thread of

discussions – The Path of Devotion to God Realization.

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Harih Om!

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

PraNams All. A bit surprised to see no responses forthcoming at all on this topic; I thought putting some things down here can at the best improve my thinking, at the worst bruise my ego - which is always a good learning experience! On a more serious note I also have a question at the end that I hope someone here will be good/kind enough to answer.

Re Ramji's first query on whether we should worship a personal or impersonal God - the answer I think is - it depends! It is said that if you wish to be like Rama, worship Rama; if you wish to be like Krishna worship Krishna. I think the reverse could also be true. I worship Rama because I have the strength of mind and heart to try and be like Him. I worship Krishna because I want to experience and also be an instrument to spread all the sweetness and love that Krishna stands for. If I were of giant intellect I could just sit down like Ramana Maharishi and think 'Who am I?' and that would be the beginning of my bliss. If I were Tagore or Wordsworth I could contemplate on Nature as Him and find bliss in her beauty. So it boils down to what stuff am I made of? Accordingly I will choose to see Him/Her.

....agree/disagree/neutral??For my question -- (and if this thread progresses, I hope we can talk about the other 4 things on Sri Ram ji's list)--I have been to a few satsangs here in the U.S. where devotees have a picture of their guru (a living human soul) and worship that picture and do all poojas to it, like one would for an idol in a temple; it makes me a bit uncomfortable at times---to completely replace a picture of a deity (of a traditional form that we worship - a Rama or Krishna or Shiva or Devi) with the picture of a Guru and to speak and think of the Guru like an average person would about God.[and I use the term Guru here not in the sense of a Guru in the Guru-shishya parampara, but a more first generation Guru who has some powers and for different reasons attract a big following]. I can understand serving and following a Guru, but am I wrong to feel uncomfortable when in that case the God as I know God is relegated to the background? to be replaced by a human being? or does this just say something about our (mine and the other Guru-devotee's) relative positions on the path? I would be interested to hear from more experienced devotees and perhaps devotees who have probably gone from being the traditional-God-picture-worshipping devotee to the now-common-sight-of-Guru-worshipping devotee and maybe vice-versa!! Does it all boil down to the 2 ends of the same spectrum - from the very personal (Guru) to the very impersonal (abstract) concept?

I have re-read what I just wrote and am pretty sure it cannot hurt any sensitive souls; inspite of my best intentions if it does, my apologies. I understand when it comes to one's Guru, devotees may have strong opinions.

Regards,Veena.On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Ram Chandran <ramvchandran wrote:

 

 

 

 

Namaste Satsanghis:

 

We really didn't have much of a Satsangh in terms of interaction

between the members during the past several months. Since we have

completed this important chapter on the Path of Devotion, it will be

very useful if we can contemplate on the following key questions that

highlighted the conversation between Arjuna and Lord Krishna:

They are:

 

(1) Should One Worship a Personal or an Impersonal God?

-- Sarvam ShreeKrishnaayaSamarpayami.Om Namo Narayanaya...!!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Veena-ji.

 

Kindly see within under your statements quoted below:

______________________________

 

VN:

 

Re Ramji's first query on whether we should worship a personal or

impersonal

God - the answer I think is - it depends!

 

[MN: I tend to agree with that " it depends! " answer assuming that a

personal God is an acknowledged deity or a living/late personage and

the impersonal an omnipotent, omniscient abstraction.]

_______________________________

 

VN:

 

It is said that if you wish to be like Rama, worship Rama; if you

wish to be

like Krishna worship Krishna. I think the reverse could also be

true. I

worship Rama because I have the strength of mind and heart to try

and be

like Him. I worship Krishna because I want to experience and also be

an

instrument to spread all the sweetness and love that Krishna stands

for. If

I were of giant intellect I could just sit down like Ramana

Maharishi and

think 'Who am I?' and that would be the beginning of my bliss. If I

were

Tagore or Wordsworth I could contemplate on Nature as Him and find

bliss in

her beauty. So it boils down to what stuff am I made of? Accordingly

I will

choose to see Him/Her.

 

...agree/disagree/neutral??

 

[MN: The answer is " disagree " . Considering that you have advaita

bhakti in mind (I can't in fact recognize any other type of

bhakti!), there is no question of being like Rama or Krishna. My

iShtadevata is the Devi. As an Advaitin, She is verily the

Consciousness of Advaita for me in a relatable form. If I can see

Her in everything, then there is nothing other than Her. This type

of devotion is, therefore, a means to sublate the diversity we

confront in the phenomenal to the Unity that we really are. All our

famous bhakta(A)s of lore, like the indomitable author of

Narayaneeyam, Shri Bhattathiri, and other devout devotees of Lord

Krishna like Poonthanam, Meera et al, had taken recourse to this

path and accomplished the supreme goal of human life.]

 

[if you have time in hand, you can read me in more details in posts

26569 and 24712.]

____________________________

 

VN:

 

I have been to a few satsangs here in the U.S. where devotees have a

picture

of their guru (a living human soul) and worship that picture and do

all

poojas to it, like one would for an idol in a temple; it makes me a

bit

uncomfortable at times---to completely replace a picture of a deity

(of a

traditional form that we worship - a Rama or Krishna or Shiva or

Devi) with

the picture of a Guru and to speak and think of the Guru like an

average

person would about God.[and I use the term Guru here not in the

sense of a

Guru in the Guru-shishya parampara, but a more first generation Guru

who has

some powers and for different reasons attract a big following]. I can

understand serving and following a Guru, but am I wrong to feel

uncomfortable when in that case the God as I know God is relegated

to the

background? to be replaced by a human being? or does this just say

something

about our (mine and the other Guru-devotee's) relative positions on

the

path? I would be interested to hear from more experienced devotees

and

perhaps devotees who have probably gone from being the

traditional-God-picture-worshipping devotee to the

now-common-sight-of-Guru-worshipping devotee and maybe vice-versa!!

 

[MN: I won't blame you for being uncomfortable. I too am not

comfortable. I feel uneasy even at pAda pUjAs. Most of my relatives

have no inhibitions about such things and they get themselves

totally involved and immersed in performing such rites and rituals

in honour of living personages.]

 

[However, I must admit that I am an ardent admirer of Mata

Amritanandamayi Devi about whom I have written here before on

several occasions. In fact, I have a big picture of Hers placed in

my pooja room in which She is all smiles. The fact is that the

picture came looking for me. I am not being superstitious. Someone

brought it to my house for a pUja. I developed a liking for it and

cherished a secret desire to own it. I have a crazy habit of

talking to the pictures of deities. When the owner of the picture

failed to turn out to collect it, I taunted Her by asking: " Don't

You want to go? " . Then it so happend that the owner informed me

that the picture befitted my pooja room more and he wouldn't like to

take it back. In other words, She just refused to go.]

 

[Veenaji, does the 'person' in a picture really matter for one who

sees the Devi in everything? Even trees and passing cats (there are

many other things of course!) thrill me and make me touch my chest

and forehead in veneration much to the consternation of my wife and

relatives.]

___________________________

 

VN:

 

Does it all boil down to the 2 ends of the same spectrum - from the

very personal

(Guru) to the very impersonal (abstract) concept?

 

[MN: Yes. You are right. However, in truth, there is nothing

personal and impersonal. I have clarified this in 26569.]

 

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Veena Nair " <nairvee wrote:

>

> I have been to a few satsangs here in the U.S. where devotees have

> a picture of their guru (a living human soul) and worship that

> picture and do all poojas to it, like one would for an idol in a

> temple; it makes me a bit uncomfortable at times---to completely

> replace a picture of a deity (of a traditional form that we

> worship - a Rama or Krishna or Shiva or Devi) with

> the picture of a Guru and to speak and think of the Guru like an

> average person would about God.

 

Hari OM!

I too thought like that before, but seeing it little differently.

Always there seems to be a picture that mind finds comfortable

holding onto and worshipping. Worship need not be with many

flowers, but with much more number of thoughts.

 

Repetition of thoughts- " japa " over a picture that mind holds

fascination for, seems to be a non-stop ritual. Just that, the

picture may be some object of perception of body, mind or intellect.

How nice a book or house, or how good/ill they treated me, or

how thoughtful or thoughtless that act was- affecting B,M,I

respectively. Another dimension is time- past or future. Dwelling

on past with regret or rejoice, or into future with fancy or fear.

 

Picture, however pleasant or not is still a picture and pointer.

Yet, it is better to have nobler than little, serene than chaotic

ones. Even so, only during single pointed focus, concentration-

dhyana- staying in golden present, the reverie seems to pause.

Until then, pictures that mind beholds keep on changing. It spills

into outside actions too. Sometimes, we can't stand some pictures

and some we can't stand away from. raaga-dwesha cycle.

--------------------------------

Hari OM!

-Srinivas

[Guest guest]

Pranams.

 

To me, my Guru IS the same as a Deity in many ways. I look at her in this way:

She is knowledge embodied in a form that is capable of passing that knowledge to

me. It is the spirit, life and knowledge Within that I worship, not " her " as a

human being. When She enters a room and I prostrate myself at Her feet, it is

not to the human form that I am prostrating, but to the Essence that IS, the

same essence through which the Knowledge of Brahman flows. I am ever humbled and

grateful of Her for being there to help remove my ignorance.

 

I am not sure if that entirely describes it, but I think it gives the general

idea of what occurs in my mind when I " worship " my Guru.

 

Ed

 

> I can understand serving and following a Guru, but am I wrong to feel

uncomfortable when in that case the God as I know God is relegated to the

background? to be replaced by a human being? or does this just say something

about our (mine and the other Guru-devotee's) relative positions on the path? I

would be interested to hear from more experienced devotees and perhaps devotees

who have probably gone from being the traditional-God-picture-worshipping

devotee to the now-common-sight-of-Guru-worshipping devotee and maybe

vice-versa!! Does it all boil down to the 2 ends of the same spectrum - from the

very personal (Guru) to the very impersonal (abstract) concept?

 

_______________

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.

http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Namaste, Sri Nairji

<<I can't in fact recognize any other type of bhakti.>>

Sorry to interrupt, but VERY WELL SAID.

Hari Om

R. S. Mani--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:

[Guest guest]

Namaste all.

 

Ram Chandran-ji's first (of five) questions " Should One Worship a

Personal or an Impersonal God? " has a detailed answer in Srimad

Bhagavatam in the Chapter on Kapila Gita.

 

The following is from Srimad Bhagavatam, Skanda III, Ch.29

 

Bhakti, says Kapila, is known in terms of nine categories by the

motivation which manifests it. The motivation could be – in the

ascending order of commendability (III – 29 – 8,9, 10):

 

• Violent ends (This is adhama-tAmasa bhakti)

• Pride (This is madhyama-tAmasa bhakti)

• Jealousy (uttama-tAmasa bhakti )

• Sensual ends (adhama-rAjasa bhakti)

• Wealth (madhyama-rAjasa bhakti)

• Fame (uttama-rAjasa bhakti)

• Eradication of Sins (adhama-sAtvika bhakti)

• Pleasure of the Lord (madhyama-sAtvika bhakti)

• Duty (uttama-sAtvika bhakti)

 

But all of them have the commonality of " bheda-darshana " (which is

conscious of the multiplicity of the deities and recognises the

differences) as well as " idol worship " (worship of specific

manifestations of the Ultimate). Over and above these, there is the

nirguNa bhakti, defined as follows:

 

mad-guNa-shruti-mAtreNa mayi sarva-guhAshaye /

mano-gatir-avicchinnA yathA gangAmbhaso'mbudhau // (#11)

lakshhaNaM bhakti-yogasya nirguNasya hyudAhRRitaM /

ahaitukya-vyavahitA yA bhaktiH purushhottame // (#12)

 

Having heard about Him, one gets addicted with devotion that does not

see any distinction, without any expectation of results, to the

Purushhottama, who lives in the deepest hearts of all, like the

waters of the Ganges that keeps on going to the ocean. That is the

characteristic of nirguNa bhakti, the bhakti of the highest kind,

higher than the nine categories mentioned above.

 

(Incidentally, this is advaita-bhakti - VK)

 

And the Lord continues, as if inspired:

 

I am present in every living entity as the Self. Those who neglect

or disregard this omnipresence and engage themselves in the worship

of the Deity in the temple, they are only making a show of

themselves. That is like offering oblations into ashes instead of in

the Fire. He who thinks of Me, residing in the bodies of others, as

different from his Self can never attain peace of mind. He never

pleases Me even if he worships with proper rituals and paraphernalia.

As long as one does not realise the omnipresent Me as resident in

His own heart, so long has he to worship Me through images,

performing all his prescribed duties. (#s III – 29: 21 to 25).

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaskar.

 

The last paragraph by provfk sums up the essence of advaita nay Omnipresence in a nutshell.

 

Detachment is the essence of worship. As Mahatma Gandhi rightly put it " A prayer without sacrifice is no prayer at all " . This has a profound meaning,

 

Namaskar.

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:31 PM, V. Krishnamurthy <profvk wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Namaste all.Ram Chandran-ji's first (of five) questions " Should One Worship a Personal or an Impersonal God? " has a detailed answer in Srimad Bhagavatam in the Chapter on Kapila Gita.

The following is from Srimad Bhagavatam, Skanda III, Ch.29Bhakti, says Kapila, is known in terms of nine categories by the motivation which manifests it. The motivation could be – in the ascending order of commendability (III – 29 – 8,9, 10):

• Violent ends (This is adhama-tAmasa bhakti)• Pride (This is madhyama-tAmasa bhakti)• Jealousy (uttama-tAmasa bhakti )• Sensual ends (adhama-rAjasa bhakti)• Wealth (madhyama-rAjasa bhakti)• Fame (uttama-rAjasa bhakti)

• Eradication of Sins (adhama-sAtvika bhakti)• Pleasure of the Lord (madhyama-sAtvika bhakti)• Duty (uttama-sAtvika bhakti)But all of them have the commonality of " bheda-darshana " (which is conscious of the multiplicity of the deities and recognises the

differences) as well as " idol worship " (worship of specific manifestations of the Ultimate). Over and above these, there is the nirguNa bhakti, defined as follows:mad-guNa-shruti-mAtreNa mayi sarva-guhAshaye /

mano-gatir-avicchinnA yathA gangAmbhaso'mbudhau // (#11)lakshhaNaM bhakti-yogasya nirguNasya hyudAhRRitaM /ahaitukya-vyavahitA yA bhaktiH purushhottame // (#12)Having heard about Him, one gets addicted with devotion that does not

see any distinction, without any expectation of results, to the Purushhottama, who lives in the deepest hearts of all, like the waters of the Ganges that keeps on going to the ocean. That is the characteristic of nirguNa bhakti, the bhakti of the highest kind,

higher than the nine categories mentioned above. (Incidentally, this is advaita-bhakti - VK)And the Lord continues, as if inspired: I am present in every living entity as the Self. Those who neglect

or disregard this omnipresence and engage themselves in the worship of the Deity in the temple, they are only making a show of themselves. That is like offering oblations into ashes instead of in the Fire. He who thinks of Me, residing in the bodies of others, as

different from his Self can never attain peace of mind. He never pleases Me even if he worships with proper rituals and paraphernalia. As long as one does not realise the omnipresent Me as resident in His own heart, so long has he to worship Me through images,

performing all his prescribed duties. (#s III – 29: 21 to 25).PraNAms to all advaitins.profvk --

[Guest guest]

--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Veena Nair <nairvee wrote:

 

 

Re. Ramji's first query on whether we should worship a personal or impersonal

God - the answer I think is - it depends!

 

 

....agree/disagree/ neutral??

 

PraNAms

 

Yes - all of the above.

 

The vision of Iswara changes as we have deeper understanding of the term Iswara.

 

First definition of Iswara - Since I see creation different from me, I invoke a

creator who created this universe. Hence first definition of Iswara is - jagat

kartaa Iswara -He is the creator. Since He has to be omniscient for him to

create this entire universe, He is up in the sky -creator - controller -

executor all three aspects - Hence we pray - and according to recent discussions

some feel that we will be incurring the sin if we do not pray. The creation is

His Leela vibhuuti. Leela means play. Here we have eka ruupa Iswara - He has a

form for worship and He has been described many ways - starting from - shaantaa

kaaram bhujaga shayanam ...etc.

 

If we ask why He created and even if He wants to create why me and then demand

that I pray to Him - we change the definition of Iswara - since a rational

intellect is asking. The next definition is

Jagat kaaraNam Iswara - which include not only the Intelligent cause as in the

first definition, but also the material cause for the creation - as in dream

creation. Now we graduate from Ekaruupa IswaraH to vishva ruupa Iswara - To

make sure we graduate we had that vishva ruupa in 11th chapter. Now Where should

I worship Him - I have see Him everywhere that is the viswa ruupa darshaNam -

Everywhere and in everything - Then what ever I do, I am doing with or for

Iswara only -There is no particular prayer since everything thing is prayer. yat

karoshi yad ashNaashi - whatever you do, whatever you eat .. offer it to Me -

that is recognized His presence in every action and in every transaction.

Recognition itself is the supreme prayer.

 

As we learn more and more Vedanta and study and understand the nature of reality

- we graduate to third definition of Iswara.

sarva adhiShTaanam IswaraH - That reduces to not eka ruupa - not viswa ruupa but

aruupa Iswara - The worship becomes contemplation on the substantive of

jiiva-jagat-Iswara -

which is

yat adreshyam agraahyam agotram avarNam

achakshu srotram tad apaanipaadam

nityam vibhuH sarva gatim sa suukshmam

yad buuta yonim paripasyanti dheeraaH - says mudaka Up

That which cannot be seen by jnaanedriyas or grasped by karmendriyaas that which

is one of a kind etc. Essentially aruupam - formless etc.

 

Kena says - One has to slowly graduate from eka ruupa to viswa ruupa to aruupa -

It declares - it is not this that you worship is Brahman. Hence advice is to

leave this that you worship and go beyond.

That which you cannot see, because of which you have capacity to see Know that

alone is Brahman not this that you worship here.

That which you cannot think but because of which you have the capacity to think

- Know that alone is Brahman not this that you worship here.

That which you cannot hear but because of which you have the capacity to hear -

know that alone is Brahman not this that you worship here.

That which you can not speak off but because of which you have the capacity to

speak, know that alone is Brahman not this that you worship here.

That which has the life but because of which the life itself pulsates - know

that alone is Brahman not this that you worship here.

- says Kena.

Here the contemplation on that because of which the whole universe functions and

the matter becomes so vibrant - that which you cannot see, or cannot be grasped

by any senses - know that alone is Brahman and that which cannot be different

from the existence-consciousness that you are - that alone is Brahman.

 

Slow and steady graduation from one to the other is evolution - essence of

adhyaaropa apavaada.

Yes, you alone can tell where you are on the ladder. If one does not climb the

lungs one by one, one may fall down and break his boons. Hence scripture says -

it is a razor head path - kshurasya dhaaraa. At the same time one should start

climbing if one wants to go up! - not sit at the base and expect some miracles.

As the mind matures, approach a teacher who can guide so that one can leave the

attachments to the lower and get attached to higher. Higher is that one takes

the mind from eka ruupa to viswa ruupa to aruupa IswaraH.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

A month back, I have posted the following key questions that

highlighted the conversation between Arjuna and Lord Krishna:

 

Should One Worship a Personal or an Impersonal God?

What are the four Paths to God Realization explained in this chapter?

Why Karma-Yoga is considered the Starting Point for God Realization?

What are the Key Attributes of a True Devotee

Why One Should Sincerely Strive to Develop Divine Qualities?

 

We had lots of interesting points provided by the learned members of

the list. Now let me provide a complete summary of the chapter with a

specific focus on the above questions:

 

Summary of the Path of Devotion

 

Should One Worship a Personal or an Impersonal God?

 

Arjuna asked: Which of these has the best knowledge of yoga ¾ those

ever-steadfast devotees who wor¬ship personal aspect, or impersonal

aspect (the formless Absolute)? Lord Krishna said – " I consider the

best yogis to be those ever steadfast devotees who worship with

supreme faith by fixing their mind on Me as their personal God. " This

is a restatement of what He said in chapter 6, verse 47. True

devotion is defined as the highest order of love for God. True

devotion is motiveless intense love of God to attain Him. It is

seeking God's grace and serving with love and dedication to please

Him . Thus, devotion is doing one's duty as an offering to the Lord

with love of God in one's heart.

 

It should be also understood that devotion is granted by the grace of

God. A loving relationship with God is easily developed through a

personal God. The faithful followers of Rama, Krishna, Moses, Buddha,

Christ, and Muhammad are considered the steadfast devotees. All

spiritual practices in the absence of steadfast devotion will become

useless. The pearl of Self-knowledge is born on the nucleus of faith

and devo¬tion only.

 

What Lord Krishna has said with respect to those who worship the

impersonal God? He assures that they also attain Me who worship the

unchangeable, the inexplicable, the invisible, the omnipresent, the

inconceivable, the unchanging, the immov¬able, and the formless.

Their worship of the impersonal God come in the form of change in

their attitude to life by restraining all the senses, even-minded

behavior under all circumstances by en¬gaging in the welfare of all

creatures. A person who is competent to worship the formless aspect

of God must have a complete mastery over the senses, be tranquil

under all circumstances, and be engaged in the welfare of all

creatures.

 

Lord Krishna implicitly points out that worshiping the personal God

is relatively easier than worshiping the impersonal God. One must be

free from body-feeling and be established in the feeling of the

existence of the Self alone, if one wants to succeed in worship of

formless Absolute. One becomes free from the bodily conception of

life when one is fully purified and acts solely for the Supreme Lord.

Attainment of such a state is not possible for the average human

being, but only for advanced souls. Therefore, the natural course for

the ordinary seeker is to worship God with a form. Thus the method of

worship depends on the individual. One should find out for oneself

which method suits one best. It is quite fruitless to ask a child to

worship a formless God, whereas a sage sees God in every form and

does not need a statue or even a picture of God for worship.

 

At the starting point there are likely differences between these two

approaches to the worship of God. But those practice with steadfast

devotion the differences get melted away. Then there will be no real

difference between the two paths. - the path of devotion to a

personal God and the path of Self-knowledge of the impersonal God -

as they attain full spiritual maturity. In the highest stage of

realization they merge and become one. The personal and the

impersonal, the physical form and the transcendental form, are the

two sides of the coin of ultimate Reality. A per¬son must learn to

focus the mind with the one and only thought on a personal God with a

form. After succeeding therein by fixing their mind, their mind get

purified and they are able to transcendent all attachments to names

and forms. The highest lib¬eration is possible only by realization of

God as the very Self in all beings, and it comes only through

maturity of devo¬tion to the personal God and by His grace.

 

Four Paths to God

First is the path of meditation (See Chapter 6 for greater details)

for the contemplative mind. Thinking of a chosen form of God all the

time is different from worshipping that form, but both practices are

the same in quality and effect. In other words, contemplation is also

a form of worship. If you are unable to focus your mind steadily on

Me then long to at¬tain Me by practice of any other spiritual

discipline; such as a ritual, or deity worship that suits you.

(12.09).

 

Second is the path of ritual, prayer, and devotional worship

recommended for people who are emotional, have more faith but less

reasoning and intellect (See also 9.32). Constantly contemplate and

concentrate your mind on God, using symbols or mental pictures of a

personal God as an aid to develop devotion. If you are unable even

to do any spiritual discipline, then dedicate all your work to Me, or

do your duty just for Me. You shall attain perfection by doing your

prescribed duty for Me - without any selfish motive - just as an

instrument to serve and please Me. (12.10)

 

Third is the path of transcendental knowledge or renunciation,

acquired through contemplation and scriptural study for people who

have realized the truth that we are only divine instruments. Lord

Himself guides every endeavor of the person who works for the good of

humanity, and success comes to a person who dedicates his or her life

to the service of God. If you are unable to dedicate your work to

Me, then just surrender unto My will and renounce the attachment to,

and the anxiety for, the fruits of all work by learning to accept all

results with equanimity as God's grace. (12.11).

 

The fourth is the path of KarmaYoga, the selfless service to

humanity, discussed in Chapter 3, for householders who cannot

renounce worldly activity and work full-time for God, as discussed in

verse 12.10, above. The main thrust of verses 12.08-11 is that one

must establish some relationship with the Lord ¾ such as the

progenitor, fa¬ther, mother, beloved, child, savior, guru, master,

helper, guest, friend, and even an enemy. KarmaYoga, or the

renunciation of the selfish attachment to fruits of work, is not a

method of last resort ¾ as it may appear from verse 12.11.

 

Karma-Yoga is the Best Way

The transcendental knowledge of scriptures is better than mere

ritualistic practice; meditation is better than scriptural knowledge;

renunciation of selfish attachment to the fruits of work (KarmaYoga)

is better than meditation; because peace immediately follows

renunciation of selfish motives. (See more on renunciation in 18.02,

and 18.09) When one's knowledge of God increases, all Karma is

gradually eliminated because one who is situated in knowledge thinks

he or she is not the doer but an instrument working at the pleasure

of the creator. Such an action in God-consciousness becomes devotion

¾ free from any Karmic bondage. Thus, there is no sharp demarcation

between the paths of selfless service, spiritual knowledge, and

devotion.

 

 

What are the Key Attributes of a Devotee:

 

One is dear to Me who does not hate any creature, who is friendly and

compassion¬ate, free from the notion of " I " and " my " , even-minded in

pain and pleasure, forgiving; and who is ever content, who has

subdued the mind, whose re¬solve is firm, whose mind and intellect

are engaged in dwelling upon Me, and who is devoted to Me. (12.13-

14) To attain oneness with God, one has to become per¬fect like Him

by cultivating moral virtues. Virtues and discipline are two sure

means of devotion. A list of forty virtues and values are provided

through verses 12.13 to 12.19 by describing the qualities of an ideal

devotee, or a Self-realized person. The true devotee is fully

committed to these forty noble qualities. It should be pointed out

the true devotion implies " COMMITTMENT " without " ATTACHMENT. "

 

One is also dear to Me who is free from joy, envy, fear and anxiety

and does not agitate others and also not agitated by them. (12.15)

 

One who is desireless, pure, wise, impartial, and free from anxiety;

who has renounced the doership in all undertakings - such a devotee

is dear to Me. (12.16)

 

One who neither rejoices nor grieves, neither likes nor dislikes, who

has renounced both the good and the evil, and is full of devotion ¾

is also dear to Me. (12.17)

 

One who remains the same towards friend or foe, in honor or

dis¬grace, in heat or cold, in pleasure or pain; who is free from

attach¬ment; who is indifferent to censure or praise; who is quiet,

and content with whatever one has, unattached to a place, a country,

or a house; who is tranquil, and full of devotion ¾ that person is

dear to Me. (12.18-19)

 

It is said that divine Controllers with their exalted qualities, such

as the knowledge of God, wisdom, renunciation, detachment, and

equanimity, always reside in the inner psyche of a pure devotee.

Thus, perfect devotees who have renounced affinity for the world and

its objects and have love for God are rewarded by the Lord with

divine qualities. They are dear to the Lord.

 

What about those who are imperfect, but trying sincerely for

perfection? Lord Krishna answers this question in the very the next

verse suggesting that One Should Sincerely Strive to Develop Divine

Qualities:

 

But those faithful devotees are very dear to Me who set Me as their

supreme goal and follow — or just sincerely strive to develop — the

above mentioned nectar of (forty) moral values. (12.20)

 

One may not have all the virtues, but a sincere effort to develop

virtues is most appreciated by the Lord. Thus the striver is very

dear to the Lord. The upper-class devotees do not desire anything,

including salvation from the Lord, ex¬cept for the boon to

permanently at the lotus feet of a personal God, birth after birth.

Lower class devotees use God as a ser¬vant to fulfill their material

demands and desires. The development of unswerving love and devotion

to the lotus feet of the Lord is the ultimate aim of all spiritual

discipline and meri¬torious deeds as well as the goal of human birth.

A true devotee con¬siders oneself the servant, the Lord as the

master, and the entire creation as His body.

 

The path of devotion is a better path for most people, but Devotion

does not develop without a combination of personal effort, faith, and

the grace of God. Nine techniques for cultivating devotion ¾ an

intense love for God as a personal Being - based on Tulasi Ramayana

are:

 

(1) The company of the holy and wise,

(2) Listening and reading the glories and stories of Lord's

incarnations in the religious scriptures,

(3) Seva or serving God through service to the needy, the saints, and

society,

(4) Congregational chanting and singing of the glories of God,

(5) Repeating the Lord's name and mantra with firm faith,

(6) Discipline, con¬trol over the six senses, and detachment,

(7) Seeing your personal God everywhere and in everything,

(8) Contentment and lack of greed as well as overlooking others'

faults, and

(9) Simplicity, lack of anger, jealousy, and hatred.

 

The best thing a person should do is to develop love of God. Lord

Rama said that one needs to follow any one of the above methods with

faith to develop love of God and become a devotee.

Good company of saints and sages is a very powerful tool for God-

realization. It is said that friendship, discussions, dealings, and

marriage should be with equals or those who are better than oneself,

not with persons of lower level of intellect (MB 5.13.117). A person

is known by the company he or she keeps. According to most saints and

sages, the path of devotion is very simple and easy to perform. One

can begin by simply chanting a personal mantra or any holy name of

God. There is no restriction on the correct time or place for

chanting the holy name of God. The process of devotional service

consists of one or more of the following practices: Hearing

discourses, chanting the holy name of God, remembering and

contemplating God, worshipping Him, praying to Him, serving God and

humanity, and surrendering to His will.

The four inter-connected paths of yoga discussed in the first twelve

chapters of the Gita may be summarized as follows:

 

The practice of KarmaYoga leads to purification of the mind from the

stain of selfishness that paves the way for knowledge of God to be

revealed. Knowledge develops into devotional love of God. Constant

thinking of God, the object of our love due to devotion, is called

meditation and contemplation that eventually lead to enlightenment

and salvation.

Is there the Only Right Way to God?

 

Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifest

aspects of God in the previous chapters (See for example 9.4 and

9.5). Arjuna's question has been answered in great detail in this

chapter, but people still argue that one method of worship or certain

religious practices are better than others. Such persons will

continue to argue and will be only able to understand half the truth.

 

From what is presented in Chapter 12, it is clear that the method of

worship depends on the nature of the individual. The person or the

person's guru should find out which path will be most suitable for

the individual, depending on the person's temperament. To force his

or her own method of worship on other people is the greatest

disservice a guru can do to disciples. The most important thing is to

develop faith in and love of God. God has the power to manifest

before a devotee in any form, regardless of the devotee's chosen form

of worship. What has worked for one may not work for all, so what

makes you think your method is universal? There was no need for the

Lord to discuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for

all. If the chosen path of spiritual discipline does not give one

peace or God-realization, then it must be understood that one is not

practicing correctly or the path is not right for the individual. It

should be kept in mind that a drop of water, no matter what route it

takes, will eventually reach the ocean.

 

Note: It should be pointed out that the recipes presented in this

chapter are quite useful for cooks who want to prepare tasty meals

for seekers who like the flavors of Dwaita or Visistadwaita or

Advaita! That may explain why this chapter is well-liked by the

followers of different schools of thought.

 

We will continue with the Satsangh of Chapter 13 starting from the

New Year. I do plan to post some preliminary postings in the later

part of December so that we begin the Satsangh on the New Year Day.

We follow the same format (2 to 3 verses posted on Sunday followed by

discussion during the week).

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Happy Holidays!

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Ram Chandran

 

thank you for your work compiling this treat

it is a wonderful work

 

happy holidays to you too

 

which holidays are on or coming now for Hindus?

 

 

in Sri Ramana Maharshi

 

 

michael

 

 

 

-

Ram Chandran

advaitin

Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:50 PM

Re: Gita Satsangh Chapter 12: The Path of Devotion to God Realization

 

 

Namaste:A month back, I have posted the following key questions that highlighted the conversation between Arjuna and Lord Krishna:Should One Worship a Personal or an Impersonal God?What are the four Paths to God Realization explained in this chapter? Why Karma-Yoga is considered the Starting Point for God Realization?What are the Key Attributes of a True Devotee Why One Should Sincerely Strive to Develop Divine Qualities?We had lots of interesting points provided by the learned members of the list. Now let me provide a complete summary of the chapter with a specific focus on the above questions:Summary of the Path of DevotionShould One Worship a Personal or an Impersonal God?Arjuna asked: Which of these has the best knowledge of yoga ¾ those ever-steadfast devotees who wor¬ship personal aspect, or impersonal aspect (the formless Absolute)? Lord Krishna said – "I consider the best yogis to be those ever steadfast devotees who worship with supreme faith by fixing their mind on Me as their personal God." This is a restatement of what He said in chapter 6, verse 47. True devotion is defined as the highest order of love for God. True devotion is motiveless intense love of God to attain Him. It is seeking God's grace and serving with love and dedication to please Him . Thus, devotion is doing one's duty as an offering to the Lord with love of God in one's heart. It should be also understood that devotion is granted by the grace of God. A loving relationship with God is easily developed through a personal God. The faithful followers of Rama, Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Christ, and Muhammad are considered the steadfast devotees. All spiritual practices in the absence of steadfast devotion will become useless. The pearl of Self-knowledge is born on the nucleus of faith and devo¬tion only. What Lord Krishna has said with respect to those who worship the impersonal God? He assures that they also attain Me who worship the unchangeable, the inexplicable, the invisible, the omnipresent, the inconceivable, the unchanging, the immov¬able, and the formless. Their worship of the impersonal God come in the form of change in their attitude to life by restraining all the senses, even-minded behavior under all circumstances by en¬gaging in the welfare of all creatures. A person who is competent to worship the formless aspect of God must have a complete mastery over the senses, be tranquil under all circumstances, and be engaged in the welfare of all creatures. Lord Krishna implicitly points out that worshiping the personal God is relatively easier than worshiping the impersonal God. One must be free from body-feeling and be established in the feeling of the existence of the Self alone, if one wants to succeed in worship of formless Absolute. One becomes free from the bodily conception of life when one is fully purified and acts solely for the Supreme Lord. Attainment of such a state is not possible for the average human being, but only for advanced souls. Therefore, the natural course for the ordinary seeker is to worship God with a form. Thus the method of worship depends on the individual. One should find out for oneself which method suits one best. It is quite fruitless to ask a child to worship a formless God, whereas a sage sees God in every form and does not need a statue or even a picture of God for worship. At the starting point there are likely differences between these two approaches to the worship of God. But those practice with steadfast devotion the differences get melted away. Then there will be no real difference between the two paths. - the path of devotion to a personal God and the path of Self-knowledge of the impersonal God - as they attain full spiritual maturity. In the highest stage of realization they merge and become one. The personal and the impersonal, the physical form and the transcendental form, are the two sides of the coin of ultimate Reality. A per¬son must learn to focus the mind with the one and only thought on a personal God with a form. After succeeding therein by fixing their mind, their mind get purified and they are able to transcendent all attachments to names and forms. The highest lib¬eration is possible only by realization of God as the very Self in all beings, and it comes only through maturity of devo¬tion to the personal God and by His grace. Four Paths to God First is the path of meditation (See Chapter 6 for greater details) for the contemplative mind. Thinking of a chosen form of God all the time is different from worshipping that form, but both practices are the same in quality and effect. In other words, contemplation is also a form of worship. If you are unable to focus your mind steadily on Me then long to at¬tain Me by practice of any other spiritual discipline; such as a ritual, or deity worship that suits you. (12.09).Second is the path of ritual, prayer, and devotional worship recommended for people who are emotional, have more faith but less reasoning and intellect (See also 9.32). Constantly contemplate and concentrate your mind on God, using symbols or mental pictures of a personal God as an aid to develop devotion. If you are unable even to do any spiritual discipline, then dedicate all your work to Me, or do your duty just for Me. You shall attain perfection by doing your prescribed duty for Me - without any selfish motive - just as an instrument to serve and please Me. (12.10)Third is the path of transcendental knowledge or renunciation, acquired through contemplation and scriptural study for people who have realized the truth that we are only divine instruments. Lord Himself guides every endeavor of the person who works for the good of humanity, and success comes to a person who dedicates his or her life to the service of God. If you are unable to dedicate your work to Me, then just surrender unto My will and renounce the attachment to, and the anxiety for, the fruits of all work by learning to accept all results with equanimity as God's grace. (12.11).The fourth is the path of KarmaYoga, the selfless service to humanity, discussed in Chapter 3, for householders who cannot renounce worldly activity and work full-time for God, as discussed in verse 12.10, above. The main thrust of verses 12.08-11 is that one must establish some relationship with the Lord ¾ such as the progenitor, fa¬ther, mother, beloved, child, savior, guru, master, helper, guest, friend, and even an enemy. KarmaYoga, or the renunciation of the selfish attachment to fruits of work, is not a method of last resort ¾ as it may appear from verse 12.11. Karma-Yoga is the Best Way The transcendental knowledge of scriptures is better than mere ritualistic practice; meditation is better than scriptural knowledge; renunciation of selfish attachment to the fruits of work (KarmaYoga) is better than meditation; because peace immediately follows renunciation of selfish motives. (See more on renunciation in 18.02, and 18.09) When one's knowledge of God increases, all Karma is gradually eliminated because one who is situated in knowledge thinks he or she is not the doer but an instrument working at the pleasure of the creator. Such an action in God-consciousness becomes devotion ¾ free from any Karmic bondage. Thus, there is no sharp demarcation between the paths of selfless service, spiritual knowledge, and devotion. What are the Key Attributes of a Devotee:One is dear to Me who does not hate any creature, who is friendly and compassion¬ate, free from the notion of "I" and "my", even-minded in pain and pleasure, forgiving; and who is ever content, who has subdued the mind, whose re¬solve is firm, whose mind and intellect are engaged in dwelling upon Me, and who is devoted to Me. (12.13-14) To attain oneness with God, one has to become per¬fect like Him by cultivating moral virtues. Virtues and discipline are two sure means of devotion. A list of forty virtues and values are provided through verses 12.13 to 12.19 by describing the qualities of an ideal devotee, or a Self-realized person. The true devotee is fully committed to these forty noble qualities. It should be pointed out the true devotion implies "COMMITTMENT" without "ATTACHMENT." One is also dear to Me who is free from joy, envy, fear and anxiety and does not agitate others and also not agitated by them. (12.15) One who is desireless, pure, wise, impartial, and free from anxiety; who has renounced the doership in all undertakings - such a devotee is dear to Me. (12.16) One who neither rejoices nor grieves, neither likes nor dislikes, who has renounced both the good and the evil, and is full of devotion ¾ is also dear to Me. (12.17)One who remains the same towards friend or foe, in honor or dis¬grace, in heat or cold, in pleasure or pain; who is free from attach¬ment; who is indifferent to censure or praise; who is quiet, and content with whatever one has, unattached to a place, a country, or a house; who is tranquil, and full of devotion ¾ that person is dear to Me. (12.18-19) It is said that divine Controllers with their exalted qualities, such as the knowledge of God, wisdom, renunciation, detachment, and equanimity, always reside in the inner psyche of a pure devotee. Thus, perfect devotees who have renounced affinity for the world and its objects and have love for God are rewarded by the Lord with divine qualities. They are dear to the Lord. What about those who are imperfect, but trying sincerely for perfection? Lord Krishna answers this question in the very the next verse suggesting that One Should Sincerely Strive to Develop Divine Qualities: But those faithful devotees are very dear to Me who set Me as their supreme goal and follow — or just sincerely strive to develop — the above mentioned nectar of (forty) moral values. (12.20) One may not have all the virtues, but a sincere effort to develop virtues is most appreciated by the Lord. Thus the striver is very dear to the Lord. The upper-class devotees do not desire anything, including salvation from the Lord, ex¬cept for the boon to permanently at the lotus feet of a personal God, birth after birth. Lower class devotees use God as a ser¬vant to fulfill their material demands and desires. The development of unswerving love and devotion to the lotus feet of the Lord is the ultimate aim of all spiritual discipline and meri¬torious deeds as well as the goal of human birth. A true devotee con¬siders oneself the servant, the Lord as the master, and the entire creation as His body. The path of devotion is a better path for most people, but Devotion does not develop without a combination of personal effort, faith, and the grace of God. Nine techniques for cultivating devotion ¾ an intense love for God as a personal Being - based on Tulasi Ramayana are: (1) The company of the holy and wise, (2) Listening and reading the glories and stories of Lord's incarnations in the religious scriptures, (3) Seva or serving God through service to the needy, the saints, and society, (4) Congregational chanting and singing of the glories of God, (5) Repeating the Lord's name and mantra with firm faith, (6) Discipline, con¬trol over the six senses, and detachment, (7) Seeing your personal God everywhere and in everything, (8) Contentment and lack of greed as well as overlooking others' faults, and (9) Simplicity, lack of anger, jealousy, and hatred. The best thing a person should do is to develop love of God. Lord Rama said that one needs to follow any one of the above methods with faith to develop love of God and become a devotee.Good company of saints and sages is a very powerful tool for God-realization. It is said that friendship, discussions, dealings, and marriage should be with equals or those who are better than oneself, not with persons of lower level of intellect (MB 5.13.117). A person is known by the company he or she keeps. According to most saints and sages, the path of devotion is very simple and easy to perform. One can begin by simply chanting a personal mantra or any holy name of God. There is no restriction on the correct time or place for chanting the holy name of God. The process of devotional service consists of one or more of the following practices: Hearing discourses, chanting the holy name of God, remembering and contemplating God, worshipping Him, praying to Him, serving God and humanity, and surrendering to His will.The four inter-connected paths of yoga discussed in the first twelve chapters of the Gita may be summarized as follows: The practice of KarmaYoga leads to purification of the mind from the stain of selfishness that paves the way for knowledge of God to be revealed. Knowledge develops into devotional love of God. Constant thinking of God, the object of our love due to devotion, is called meditation and contemplation that eventually lead to enlightenment and salvation. Is there the Only Right Way to God?Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifest aspects of God in the previous chapters (See for example 9.4 and 9.5). Arjuna's question has been answered in great detail in this chapter, but people still argue that one method of worship or certain religious practices are better than others. Such persons will continue to argue and will be only able to understand half the truth. From what is presented in Chapter 12, it is clear that the method of worship depends on the nature of the individual. The person or the person's guru should find out which path will be most suitable for the individual, depending on the person's temperament. To force his or her own method of worship on other people is the greatest disservice a guru can do to disciples. The most important thing is to develop faith in and love of God. God has the power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless of the devotee's chosen form of worship. What has worked for one may not work for all, so what makes you think your method is universal? There was no need for the Lord to discuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for all. If the chosen path of spiritual discipline does not give one peace or God-realization, then it must be understood that one is not practicing correctly or the path is not right for the individual. It should be kept in mind that a drop of water, no matter what route it takes, will eventually reach the ocean.Note: It should be pointed out that the recipes presented in this chapter are quite useful for cooks who want to prepare tasty meals for seekers who like the flavors of Dwaita or Visistadwaita or Advaita! That may explain why this chapter is well-liked by the followers of different schools of thought. We will continue with the Satsangh of Chapter 13 starting from the New Year. I do plan to post some preliminary postings in the later part of December so that we begin the Satsangh on the New Year Day. We follow the same format (2 to 3 verses posted on Sunday followed by discussion during the week).With my warmest regards,Happy Holidays! Ram Chandran

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Michael:

 

Thanks for your kind remarks. I am not mentioning any special Holidays

or Hindus and it is just reference to the end of the year Holidays

(most people try to use their vacation days during this time of the

year in the USA commonly observed. As a matter of fact, for Hindus, all

Holidays are " Holy Days! " .

 

With my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin , " Michael Bindel " <michael.bindel

wrote:

>

> which holidays are on or coming now for Hindus?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

yes HOLY DAYS should be HOLY

 

but very very few indeed take care of this....

 

 

in ITS Grace

 

 

michael

 

 

-

Ram Chandran

advaitin

Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:04 PM

Re: Gita Satsangh Chapter 12: The Path of Devotion to God Realization

 

 

Namaste Sri Michael:Thanks for your kind remarks. I am not mentioning any special Holidays or Hindus and it is just reference to the end of the year Holidays (most people try to use their vacation days during this time of the year in the USA commonly observed. As a matter of fact, for Hindus, all Holidays are "Holy Days!".With my warmest regards,Ram Chandranadvaitin , "Michael Bindel" <michael.bindel wrote:>> which holidays are on or coming now for Hindus?> >

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namasthe,

 

The compilation of the discussion is very worthwhile. Thanks a lot Ramji for the dedication.

 

'His' 'Gita' has all that one needs to begin, continue and persevere till the goal of attaining Brahman is reached; and that too in very simple practical steps.

 

Hope to see more of such steps that will take more people to the correct understanding of one's existence.

 

Regards

 

Balagopal

 

 

 

 

 

 

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Ramji:

Thank you for this inspiring and helpful post.

It is a good time of year to post the qualities

a devotee should strive for as we approach

the new year and contemplate on it and what

our goals might be. May we be gentle with

ourselves as we endeavor to achieve them.

 

For those of us who are emotional, have more faith but

less reasoning and intellect :-), I have copied an excerpt

to my website which explores some other Divine qualities...

 

---http://www.omshaantih.com/Lord_Krishna/Radha/Krishna.htm

 

 

And while there I found this old webpage with an article by

ProfVKji. Harshaji also has it somewhere on his blog...

 

 

http://www.omshaantih.com/Lord_Krishna/Raasa/LeelA.htm

 

In His service,

 

Joyce