Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 praNAms Hare Krishna I got the below from one of my friends...I wanted to know what exactly the intention of Sri Ramana when he said world is the mind creation only & apart from mind there is no existence to the world?? dont you think this is exactly the position of vijnAna vAdins?? Kindly share your thoughts...Here is the excerpt : // quote // // excerpt from " who am i " ---> Q 8: What is the nature of the mind? Ramana: What is called 'mind' is a wondrous power residing in the Self. It causes all thoughts to arise. Apart from thoughts, there is no such thing as mind. Therefore, thought is the nature of mind. Apart from thoughts, there is no independent entity called the world. In deep sleep there are no thoughts, and there is no world. In the states of waking and dream, there are thoughts, and there is a world also. Just as the spider emits the thread (of the web) out of itself and again withdraws it into itself, likewise the mind projects the world out of itself and again resolves it into itself. When the mind comes out of the Self, the world appears. Therefore, when the world appears (to be real), the Self does not appear; and when the Self appears (shines) the world does not appear. When one persistently inquires into the nature of the mind, the mind will end leaving the Self (as the residue). What is referred to as the Self is the Atman. The mind always exists only in dependence on something gross; it cannot stay alone. It is the mind that is called the subtle body or the soul (jiva). //<-- end of excerpt. // unquote // Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Bhaskarji - PraNAms First I find that the questions and answers should be understood in complete context and to whom it is addressed and what was prior discussion. The best thing is to study his Sat DarshaNa - to understand exact position of Ramana. He extensively uses the Vedantic background to analysis the jiiva-jagat-Iswara and ahankaara vichaara. Without the mind, world is not perceived as in deep sleep. There has to be ego to crystallize to have the notion that world that one sees is separate from me. In Sad darshaNa - he also analyses the vision of a jnaani in clear terms. Jnaani sees the world but does not see the world as separate from HIM the absolute consciousness but separate from the local reflected consciousness, chidaabaasa. Thus he sees, but does not see - and both statements are correct from two different references states. Jnaani can see though the local equipments as the world is separate from the equipments through which he sees and still knows from the point of absolute consciousness that He is there is no world separate from him. These are clearly explained in his 40 verses on sat DarshaNa. Vijnaana vaada is separate from the mind perceiving the world - According to Vedanta - mind does not create the world - mind is part of the world. It is the total mind that creates the world - which is Iswara. Local mind is needed to perceive the world that Iswara has created. Local mind can create the local world as in dream world. This in fact is the reason why the Iswara world does not disappear when the local mind realizes. About questions and answers, I would be careful in interpreting without correct context in which Bhagavaan answered. Hari Om! Sadananda --- On Tue, 11/18/08, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: Q 8: What is the nature of the mind? Ramana: What is called 'mind' is a wondrous power residing in the Self. It causes all thoughts to arise. Apart from thoughts, there is no such thing as mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > This in fact is the reason why the Iswara world does not disappear when the local mind realizes. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda praNAms Sadaji and all advaitins I have a doubt. Does the disappearance of the Iswara World is called praLaya? Then, since praLaya is certain, every one/thing will have become a realized entity - irrespective its karma. So like every thing else in advaitam, there is no real FreeWill it is all relative reality. Thank you Sudesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > I got the below from one of my friends...I wanted to know what > exactly the intention of Sri Ramana when he said world is the mind > creation only & apart from mind there is no existence to the > world?? dont you think this is exactly the position of vijnAna > vAdins?? Kindly share your thoughts...Here is the excerpt : > Q 8: What is the nature of the mind? > Ramana: What is called 'mind' is a wondrous power residing in the > Self. It causes all thoughts to arise. Apart from thoughts, there > is no such thing as mind. Hari OM! I confess I have no insights into it, but sharing few thoughts. We have Ramana's answer to a question and we now have questions about the answer. Ramana discussed about " mind " and we want to discuss what was discussed. He explained, and we want to explain how it goes with other and others' explanations. This is understandable in objective sciences, but the fascinating thing is this is all about mind, using which alone all of this is done to begin with. It only seems to show, that nature of mind still eludes us even after reading, discussing and even asking. May be they are helpful and even necessary, but certainly not sufficient conditions. We may study every book available on swimming, but learn it only by doing. So too, unless I learn to observe mind and its moods, and gain some control, really knowing it, let alone transcending it, seems as elusive as always. All I seem to gain is information, but no transformation. --- Hari OM! -Srinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 advaitin , " Srinivas Nagulapalli " <srini_nagul wrote: > > advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr@> wrote: > > > I got the below from one of my friends...I wanted to know what > > exactly the intention of Sri Ramana when he said world is the mind > > creation only & apart from mind there is no existence to the > > world?? dont you think this is exactly the position of vijnAna > > vAdins?? Kindly share your thoughts...Here is the excerpt : > > > Q 8: What is the nature of the mind? > > Ramana: What is called 'mind' is a wondrous power residing in the > > Self. It causes all thoughts to arise. Apart from thoughts, there > > is no such thing as mind. > > Hari OM! > I confess I have no insights into it, but sharing few thoughts. > > We may study every book available on swimming, but learn it only by > doing. So too, unless I learn to observe mind and its moods, and > gain some control, really knowing it, let alone transcending it, > seems as elusive as always. All I seem to gain is information, > but no transformation. Namaste, A study of David Godman's 'musings' on this subject, with quotations from Sri Ramana, would adequately answer the questions: http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 advaitin , " Sudesh Pillutla " <sudeshpillutla wrote: > > advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda > <kuntimaddisada@> wrote: > > > This in fact is the reason why the Iswara world does not disappear > when the local mind realizes. > > > > Hari Om! > > Sadananda > > praNAms Sadaji and all advaitins > > I have a doubt. > > Does the disappearance of the Iswara World is called praLaya? > > Then, since praLaya is certain, every one/thing will have become a > realized entity - irrespective its karma. So like every thing else in > advaitam, there is no real FreeWill it is all relative reality. > > Thank you > > Sudesh > Namaste,S Samskaras survive pralaya and even mahapralay except for those in brahmaloka consciousness..........Cheers Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji Hare Krishna thanks for your kind clarification...I too was wondering about the context when I saw this mail...I am curious to know what Sri RamaNa had offered when questions asked about Ishwara / creator / srushtikarta...would anybody throw light on this.. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Sudeshji - PraNAms Laya is at individual level and pralaya is at macro level. Just as in the case of individual level the world does not disappear but goes into a potential form to be ready to be projected when the mind is ready and capable. Similarly the universe of things and beings go into potential form at the level of Iswara. The absolute disappearance of the world happens only when jnaani upaadhiis dissolves - that is when ego dies. The potential form in pralaya provides the seed for the next creation - Thus the cycle goes on and it is beginning less and endless - until of course all the jiivas in the universe realize then jiiva-jagat-Iswara have become one - and no more creation also. But as long as there is one jiiva left for realization, the cycle continues. Hari Om! Sadananda --- On Tue, 11/18/08, Sudesh Pillutla <sudeshpillutla wrote: Sudesh Pillutla <sudeshpillutla Re: Bhagavan Ramana on world !! advaitin Tuesday, November 18, 2008, 12:11 PM advaitin@ s.com, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada@ ...> wrote: > This in fact is the reason why the Iswara world does not disappear when the local mind realizes. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda praNAms Sadaji and all advaitins I have a doubt. Does the disappearance of the Iswara World is called praLaya? Then, since praLaya is certain, every one/thing will have become a realized entity - irrespective its karma. So like every thing else in advaitam, there is no real FreeWill it is all relative reality. Thank you Sudesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Bhaskarji - PraNAms Bhagavan - clearly states in his Sat Darshan - Any philosophy starts with the analysis of jiiva-jagat-Iswara. But all three arises with the rise of ahankaara - the ego. Without analyzing the ahankaara any analysis of jagat and Iswara will be futile. Hence the emphasis is on the analysis of who am I. Many of the Ramana followers think there is nothing else is needed - and only few realizes the true depth of the analysis of Bhagavan Ramana - in the analysis of who am I, the I has to be understood as the substantive of jiiva-jagat and Iswara. Without that understanding, so called the direct inquiry of who am I - will lead no where other than I am not this and that. But in the 'I am not this' – it should include ‘I am this too’ also. That kind of vicaara happens only with the clear understanding of 'who that I really stands for' - in the direction Mandukya points out as turiiyam. For that study of Vedanta is required. Hari Om! Sadananda --- On Wed, 11/19/08, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr Re: Bhagavan Ramana on world !! advaitin Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 2:50 AM praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji Hare Krishna thanks for your kind clarification. ..I too was wondering about the context when I saw this mail...I am curious to know what Sri RamaNa had offered when questions asked about Ishwara / creator / srushtikarta. ..would anybody throw light on this.. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 until of course all the jiivas in the universe realize then jiiva-jagat-Iswara have become one - and no more creation also. But as long as there is one jiiva left for realization, the cycle continues. praNAms Sri sadananda prabhuji Hare Krishna This is clearly the view of nAnA jIva vAda...but it has been mentioned that jIva svarUpa is only from the point of upAdhi saMparka...there is nothing called *jIva* as a separate chaitanya apart from THAT to realize the truth..Shankara clearly says in sUtra bhAshya that Jivatva is wrongly attributed to Atman... Interestingly, this nAnA jIva vAda is not the baby of the vivaraNa school...if we see the nyAna nirNaya, in vivaraNa school it holds the view of eka jIva vAda and vehemently refutes the theory of nAnA jIva vAda...Perhaps, our respected Sri Sastri prabhuji or Sri Devanathan prabhuji would throw more information on this. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 --- On Wed, 11/19/08, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: praNAms Sri sadananda prabhuji Hare Krishna This is clearly the view of nAnA jIva vAda...but it has been mentioned that jIva svarUpa is only from the point of upAdhi saMparka...there is nothing called *jIva* as a separate chaitanya apart from THAT to realize the truth..Shankara clearly says in sUtra bhAshya that Jivatva is wrongly attributed to Atman... ---------------- Bhaskarji - PraNAms. my statement has been interpreted incorrectly. My statement is only at vyavahaara level. Jiiva-jagat-Iswara are at vyavahaara level only and not at paaramaarthika level. At paaramaarthika level there is no creation no jiiva no jagat separate from Brahman. Naanaa jiiva vaada applies at the absolute level - as in VishiShTaadvaita or dvaita. My statement is valid at vyavhaara level and any further extrapulation is not valid or not intended. Hope I am clear. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Pranam dear Sri.Sadananda-ji, advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > At paaramaarthika level there is no creation no jiiva no jagat separate from Brahman. Naanaa jiiva vaada applies at the absolute level - as in >VishiShTaadvaita or dvaita. True. But, in advaita, if not nAna jIva vAda, is itn't " nAna level " vAda applies in absolute level? Meaning, this " two-fold level " vAda has to be " absolute " and real in order to say nAna-jIva are valid only at vyavahAra level. Either way, we both hold nAntva in absolute level. In one case it is nAna-jIvas and in other it is nAna-levels! Regards, Srinivas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 > until of course all the jiivas in the universe realize then jiiva- jagat-Iswara have become one - and no more creation also. But as long as there is one jiiva left for realization, the cycle continues. Namaste all: I think what Bhagwan Ramana meant on Jiva (and hence mind) was, as Ghalib would say, " dil ke khush rakhne ko ... Ghalib ye khayaal achha hai... " --Its a pleasant enough thought Galib, but I know the reality of the Heavens There is really no Jiva (and hence no mind, no ego... etc) , and one does not have to wait till pralaya or Mahapralaya for the Jiva to disappear; each night, in deep sleep the Jiva disappears...it merges into the real and only thing. And I think that Bhagwan is recommending this course of action in waking life too: figure out who is really causing the 'acting' to happen, trace it to its source, and then merge into it. Or as Galib would say again: Naqsh faryadi hal kiski shokhi-e-tehrir ka. Kaghazi hal payrahan her peykar-e-tasveer ka In this sher, Galib uses the analogy of the words in a sentence: The words in the sentence complain, " Whose mischief is this that we appear as impressions, as if wearing paper-shirts, on this piece of paper? " (pun on 'paper-shirts' because plaintiff's of old had to wear paper shirts in court). In a sentence, the noun is the subject and the verb identifies what act he does. The noun is the Jiva and he wears paper-cloths (he is not immortal -- i.e. nashwar). The verb makes him act. Bhagwan(and Galib in this sher) recommends asking the question, " Who put me in this sentence, and who put the verb there that makes me act thus? " Rgds IK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 --- On Thu, 11/20/08, Srinivas Kotekal <kots_p wrote: > At paaramaarthika level there is no creation no jiiva no jagat separate from Brahman. Naanaa jiiva vaada applies at the absolute level - as in >VishiShTaadvaita or dvaita. True. But, in advaita, if not nAna jIva vAda, is itn't " nAna level " vAda applies in absolute level? Meaning, this " two-fold level " vAda has to be " absolute " and real in order to say nAna-jIva are valid only at vyavahAra level. Either way, we both hold nAntva in absolute level. In one case it is nAna-jIvas and in other it is nAna-levels! -------------- Sreenivas - PraNAms Advaita has to be understood from correct perspective. The very word implies there are no two - either in terms of jiiva-jagat-Iswara or in terms of levels too. The very word implies not two - It is not one - but not two. Implication is at the absolute level where there are no more levels, the apparent two or duality resolves into one. As the great advaitin Shree T.P. Mahadevan mentions -advaita - translated as non-dualism, the -non- refers not only to duality but to -ism as well - implying that all levels and isms get resolved into one - that is advaita. It is non-duality in spite of duality. Therefore we do not hold any naanaa at absolute level or even naanaa levels at absolute - even calling absolute level as level is only from the vyavahaara point – for the purpose of teaching or upaaya - as Goudapaada says it is not even to be called ADVAITA. Then what should one call? yato vaacho nivartante apraapya manasaa saH| The mind and the words return back. Let us be just silent since any further discussion is degradation of that glorious state - the turiiyam. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 MAHA YOGA written by Lakshamana Sarma explains the question in detail. The work was approved by Sri RamanapoduryOn Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: praNAms Hare Krishna I got the below from one of my friends...I wanted to know what exactly the intention of Sri Ramana when he said world is the mind creation only & apart from mind there is no existence to the world?? dont you think this is exactly the position of vijnAna vAdins?? Kindly share your thoughts...Here is the excerpt : // quote // // excerpt from " who am i " ---> Q 8: What is the nature of the mind? Ramana: What is called 'mind' is a wondrous power residing in the Self. It causes all thoughts to arise. Apart from thoughts, there is no such thing as mind. Therefore, thought is the nature of mind. Apart from thoughts, there is no independent entity called the world. In deep sleep there are no thoughts, and there is no world. In the states of waking and dream, there are thoughts, and there is a world also. Just as the spider emits the thread (of the web) out of itself and again withdraws it into itself, likewise the mind projects the world out of itself and again resolves it into itself. When the mind comes out of the Self, the world appears. Therefore, when the world appears (to be real), the Self does not appear; and when the Self appears (shines) the world does not appear. When one persistently inquires into the nature of the mind, the mind will end leaving the Self (as the residue). What is referred to as the Self is the Atman. The mind always exists only in dependence on something gross; it cannot stay alone. It is the mind that is called the subtle body or the soul (jiva). //<-- end of excerpt. // unquote // Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > > Bhaskarji - PraNAms > > Bhagavan - clearly states in his Sat Darshan - > Any philosophy starts with the analysis of jiiva-jagat-Iswara. But all three arises with the rise of ahankaara - the ego. Without analyzing the ahankaara any analysis of jagat and Iswara will be futile. Hence the emphasis is on the analysis of who am I. Many of the Ramana followers think there is nothing else is needed - and only few realizes the true depth of the analysis of Bhagavan Ramana - in the analysis of who am I, the I has to be understood as the substantive of jiiva-jagat and Iswara. Without that understanding, so called the direct inquiry of who am I - will lead no where other than I am not this and that. But in the 'I am not this' " it should include " I am this too " also. That kind of vicaara happens only with the clear understanding of 'who that I really stands for' - in the direction Mandukya points out as turiiyam. For that study of Vedanta is required. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda Namaste Sri Sadanandaji and others, At the time of reading this post some days ago, I very much appreciated this observation. It's been my experience that most people who are interested in advaita (but who have not been exposed to the teachings of Vedanta) do not know of the process which is called the 'positive assertion' (or the tat pada), nor when hearing about it, do they agree that it is necessary or even possible. We can knock off from the jiva all that the jiva's mind took the jiva's existence to be one with and dependent upon, (the changing body, mind and sense organs), and that neti, neti, process is necessary and useful, but without the positive assertion, without pointing out the ever present unchanging reality which I am, and which is already totally present, the student may very well miss the recognition of the self. I have found that many (and I include myself as having this misunderstanding prior to coming to Vedanta) think that somehow the 'reality' (although they don't know what that is) will just magically 'pop out' when one has successfully performed 'neti, neti.' And since those who think this way do not know that the self is unchanging, immutable, and timeless and already present as 'me,' they may be looking for something else altogether, some concept of what they think will or should happen. Many in the western community seem to equate their concept of what is going to 'pop out' as being a certain type of mental experience of peace and happiness. Then they think that the next logical step is to expand that happy and peaceful state of mind to be experienced all of the time, or as much as possible, and if it isn't experienced at all times, then somehow they have lost their understanding, and need to regain it. My teacher has referred to this as 'experience maintainance.' And since the self is the one 'thing' which doesn't need to be maintained, and which in fact, is maintaining the whole creation, including every experience, these wrongly informed people are looking in the wrong 'place' i.e. changing experience. So, I was happy to see the above pointed out by Sri Sadaji, and although no one else commented upon it, (perhaps because we are all such good students that we already know what he observed to be true), still I thought I would write and to say how important I feel this observation is, because I had to spend quite a bit of time shedding my own wrong notions before I could appreciate that the 'positive assertion' is necessary and possible. Pranams, Durga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Namaste as long as we are not ready to really accept that there is NOTHING but SELF GD LOVE or how you want to name it a n d that therefore all what we experience "feelthink" is n o t real our search remains theoretical only. wonderful intellectual discussions - yes. But where are the practical consequences?? Complete surrender to that SELF is necessary. Meaning giving up all expectations, hope...waiting for "reward" Knowing that this sacrifice is no sacrifice at all... "Just" plain acceptance of inwardly understood TRUTH living by this truth is absolute necessary - of course with all necessary "errors" which we have to accept as our "karma", as our lessons, out trials on the way back home.... in Sri Ramana Maharshi michael Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1807 - Release 23/11/2008 10.59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 Michael - PraNAms. Durgaji has rightly pointed out the nature of the search for the truth involved. Even though the truth that I am searching for the essence of I am - what that I am has to be clear understood. Vichaara or inquiry involves intellect only - there is no other knowledge other than intellectual knowledge, that includes 'self-knowledge' too. Meditation involves an inquiry within to see clearly the substantive of jiiva-jagat-Iswara - that I am. For any knowledge to take place we need a pramANa or means of knowledge - just as we need to open our eyes to see. Self knowledge does not happen without faith in the words of the scriptures as you are that - or this self that I am is the self in all and all that I see and experience - nay the whole world including the creator of this world all dissolve in to I the self that I am. That clear understanding comes only by the proper inquiry of who that I am. While emphasizing the who am I inquiry is needed - Ramana leaves the disciple to find out themselves who to do that inquiry. Since it is not specified in clear terms, many of Ramana followers feel that it is a direct path and there is no need to study the scriptures. Unfortunately without pramANa, no knowledge will takes place. We need an assertion that I am is the totality - that includes this that is the world and the creator of this - Iswara. Issha jiivayoH veShadhii bhidaa satva bhaavato vastu kevalam| says Bhagavaan Ramana in Upadesasaara. the substantive of jiiva and Iswara is the essence - the existence that I am - other than the existence, the difference between jiiva and Iswara is only the veSha or costume that makes them look different from each other. This is the essence of tat tvam asi - statement. To appreciate this clearly, on has to understand the implication of what that tat really stands for and how I am the same as that. - Hence I am not that should include I am that too - just as gold is not ring, bangle; yet gold is the ring and bangle too. Hari Om! Sadananda --- On Sun, 11/23/08, Michael Bindel <michael.bindel wrote: as long as we are not ready to really accept that there is NOTHING but SELF GD LOVE or how you want to name it a n d that therefore all what we experience " feel " " think " is n o t real our search remains theoretical only. wonderful intellectual discussions - yes. But where are the practical consequences? ? found Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 Dear All, my respectsIs not surprising that Bhagavan Ramana's devotees think that Self-Enquiry (as taught by Ramana himself) is all what is needed, since Ramana himself made this clear in many occassions throughout his dialogues.One of the points to take into account while studying Bhagavan Ramana's Teachings is that the core of them were directed specifically to mature, prepared and advanced minds. That might take care of why, in general, he almost never advised the study of the scriptures, as is often mentioned in Vedanta, to gain the Ultimate Knowledge of our Essential Nature/Brahman. He did advice people to 'complement' Atma-Vichara with the study of several text extracted often from the Srutis and Smritis.Although the neti-neti method ('negative' approach) made its way through the first two verses of one of his first teachings (Naan Yar - Who Am I?) echoing perhaps Adi Shankara's VivekaChudamani, in several other occasions he also clearly stated that this methodology wasn't no longer necessary for advanced stages of Self-Enquiry. The same with the positive 'approach' of the repetition of 'Aham Brahmasmi' (Nisargadatta's tool for Self-Realization).Ramana's Self-Enquiry basically traces the notional mind or I-Thought (pramata, aham-vritti) to its Source (and of course this has to be done 'from' the mind itself, thorn removing other thorn, both to be thrown out afterwards). Source wherefrom all manifested phenomena springs out (intellectual, emotional and sensorial). Abidance 'there', produces the dissolution of the I-thought, last step where the brillance of Self, without impediments, shine of its own accord (since Self-Effulgent). At this point no further intellectual, emotional or sensorial 'understanding' is needed, since ANY kind of understanding is just another function of that very same 'notional' mind that has been dissolved in the process. Idam-vritti (or otherness, prameia, the world, etc.) dissolving into Aham-vritti (the I-thought creator of the Idam-Vritti) and then both evaporating through the sustained effort to keep alive the Fire of Self-Enquiry (Abidance). In fact, the method focuses mainly in destroying what is covering the understanding (specially ignorance in the form of binding vasanas), it doesn't "create or attain" the Self since it is our nature by default (clearly stated by Ramana always)Basically it is very simple, turning one's mind's attention inward and sustaining that effort, this is all what's needed. But as we know 'simple' doesn't necessary equates with 'easy'. Here is where preparation of the mind enters, with all that it implies: in the Hindu Tradition Karma yoga, Upasana, Study of diverse Scriptures, etc... Now, from another perspective, this preparation doesn't necessarily has to happen in this lifetime and Bhagavan Ramana is a clear example of this point, attaining full Self-Realization while being a teenager. He was already prepared, ripe and ready.Being a Ramana devotee or 'follower' doesn't necessarily mean that one is doing Self-Enquiry correctly. It doesn't mean that one is doing Vichara wrongly either. We are all different and look at Bhagavan's finger pointing at the moon from different angles also. Many take Bhagavan as a famous saint, or an incarnation of Dakshinamurti, or even Subramaniam, perform pujas and tapas at his samadhi, repeat his name, circumvalate his shrine and may never ever enquire "Who is doing all this?". That is the paradox... the finger, not the moon....Maybe these times we are living, with the emergence of Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi (rare flowers in the vast garden of Advaita Vedanta in India), and even the satsang movement initiated in the western world, are opportunities for those prepared already, who need less "education", since performed already "before". There are several, even many proofs of devotees who attained Self-Realization only focusing their sadhana on Bhagavan's Teaching of Self-Enquiry. For them, it was all that was needed. Last but not least, one can only speak for oneself.Each one is a different thread in this vyavaharic carpet, and what a beautiful display of shapes and colors for the Eye who focus its gaze on the Whole!Pranams again to All,Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 Namaste Dearest Mouna your esteemed words reflect perfectly what this person feels about this theme Your wealth of real knowledge and your ability to put it in understandable language is admired indeed. You are blessed.... in Sri Ramana Maharshi michael - Mouna advaitin Monday, November 24, 2008 5:21 AM Re: Bhagavan Ramana on world !! Dear All, my respectsIs not surprising that Bhagavan Ramana's devotees think that Self-Enquiry (as taught by Ramana himself) is all what is needed, since Ramana himself made this clear in many occassions throughout his dialogues.One of the points to take into account while studying Bhagavan Ramana's Teachings is that the core of them were directed specifically to mature, prepared and advanced minds. That might take care of why, in general, he almost never advised the study of the scriptures, as is often mentioned in Vedanta, to gain the Ultimate Knowledge of our Essential Nature/Brahman. He did advice people to 'complement' Atma-Vichara with the study of several text extracted often from the Srutis and Smritis.Although the neti-neti method ('negative' approach) made its way through the first two verses of one of his first teachings (Naan Yar - Who Am I?) echoing perhaps Adi Shankara's VivekaChudamani, in several other occasio ns he also clearly stated that this methodology wasn't no longer necessary for advanced stages of Self-Enquiry. The same with the positive 'approach' of the repetition of 'Aham Brahmasmi' (Nisargadatta's tool for Self-Realization).Ramana's Self-Enquiry basically traces the notional mind or I-Thought (pramata, aham-vritti) to its Source (and of course this has to be done 'from' the mind itself, thorn removing other thorn, both to be thrown out afterwards). Source wherefrom all manifested phenomena springs out (intellectual, emotional and sensorial). Abidance 'there', produces the dissolution of the I-thought, last step where the brillance of Self, without impediments, shine of its own accord (since Self-Effulgent). At this point no further intellectual, emotional or sensorial 'understanding' is needed, since ANY kind of understanding is just another function of that very same 'notional' mind that has been dissolved in the process. Idam-vritti (or othern ess, prameia, the world, etc.) dissolving into Aham-vritti (the I-thought creator of the Idam-Vritti) and then both evaporating through the sustained effort to keep alive the Fire of Self-Enquiry (Abidance). In fact, the method focuses mainly in destroying what is covering the understanding (specially ignorance in the form of binding vasanas), it doesn't "create or attain" the Self since it is our nature by default (clearly stated by Ramana always)Basically it is very simple, turning one's mind's attention inward and sustaining that effort, this is all what's needed. But as we know 'simple' doesn't necessary equates with 'easy'. Here is where preparation of the mind enters, with all that it implies: in the Hindu Tradition Karma yoga, Upasana, Study of diverse Scriptures, etc... Now, from another perspective, this preparation doesn't necessarily has to happen in this lifetime and Bhagavan Ramana is a clear example of this point, attainin g full Self-Realization while being a teenager. He was already prepared, ripe and ready.Being a Ramana devotee or 'follower' doesn't necessarily mean that one is doing Self-Enquiry correctly. It doesn't mean that one is doing Vichara wrongly either. We are all different and look at Bhagavan's finger pointing at the moon from different angles also. Many take Bhagavan as a famous saint, or an incarnation of Dakshinamurti, or even Subramaniam, perform pujas and tapas at his samadhi, repeat his name, circumvalate his shrine and may never ever enquire "Who is doing all this?". That is the paradox... the finger, not the moon....Maybe these times we are living, with the emergence of Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi (rare flowers in the vast garden of Advaita Vedanta in India), and even the satsang movement initiated in the western world, are opportunities for those prepared already, who need less "education", since performed already "before". There are several, even many proofs of devotees who attained Self-Realization only focusing their sadhana on Bhagavan's Teaching of Self-Enquiry. For them, it was all that was needed. Last but not least, one can only speak for oneself.Each one is a different thread in this vyavaharic carpet, and what a beautiful display of shapes and colors for the Eye who focus its gaze on the Whole!Pranams again to All,Mouna Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1807 - Release 23/11/2008 10.59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 A PRAYER TO BH. RAMANA Oh, brilliant eyes! Yet to blossom smile! Visage profoundly serene! Show me the way sublime. Out of this mesh much knotted, In which I am woefully trapped, Made of mind and intellect Understanding and what not, Of teachers by whom I aver, Of books I don't close ever, Of a body demanding care, Of senses gone haywire. I know all these to be Not me, because I see. Yet, I know not the seeing me, For blind is my inner eye. " All you know is you are not, What knows is you " I am taught Knowing this much will suffice You are then verily self-realized. " A mere understanding, isn't this? " I question losing all my wits. " Yes, it is so by all the means, It does take place in the mind " . " Isn't mind in knowing? " I ask " So what? " " The wise does think " they remark " The wise does act, the wise does read, The wise does enjoy the food he eats " . " Granted all that " I concede " The wise knows not that he reads That he acts and that he eats The way you and me so incomplete " . Didn't our Sage say that he is like One in himself fast asleep On a shaky cart on potholed track Knowing not the shocking creaks. My soulful plea Oh, Lord Ramana, Dear Sage of Holy Arunachala! Cast your kind glance upon this me Truth of " Who am I? " so I see. So I realize what it is like Being in this tumultuous sea Knowing and yet knowing not Knowing all as me in me. Soaring up and up the sky Wingless, mindless, ever-free Unbridled by tiresome thinking Freed from burdensome understanding, In the sky of Pure Being To which Your eyes do beckon, To the beauty of spaceless expanse, Where Your smile shines and awakens. ramaNArpaNaM astu Madathil Nair __________________ advaitin , " Mouna " <maunna wrote: >> > Ramana's Self-Enquiry basically traces the notional mind or I- Thought > (pramata, aham-vritti) to its Source (and of course this has to be done > 'from' the mind itself, thorn removing other thorn, both to be thrown > out afterwards). Source wherefrom all manifested phenomena springs out > (intellectual, emotional and sensorial). Abidance 'there', produces the > dissolution of the I-thought, last step where the brillance of Self, > without impediments, shine of its own accord (since Self- Effulgent). At > this point no further intellectual, emotional or sensorial > 'understanding' is needed, since ANY kind of understanding is just > another function of that very same 'notional' mind that has been > dissolved in the process. Idam-vritti (or otherness, prameia, the world, > etc.) dissolving into Aham-vritti (the I-thought creator of the > Idam-Vritti) and then both evaporating through the sustained effort to > keep alive the Fire of Self-Enquiry (Abidance). In fact, the method > focuses mainly in destroying what is covering the understanding > (specially ignorance in the form of binding vasanas), it doesn't " create > or attain " the Self since it is our nature by default (clearly stated by > Ramana always) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 hare krishna, namaskarams mr.nairthat is a good one reflecting the mind in search of the truth.may lord ramana bless you with that vision to see your self.baskaran-- On Mon, 24/11/08, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote: So I realize what it is like Being in this tumultuous sea Knowing and yet knowing not Knowing all as me in me. Soaring up and up the sky Wingless, mindless, ever-free Unbridled by tiresome thinking Freed from burdensome understanding, In the sky of Pure Being To which Your eyes do beckon, To the beauty of spaceless expanse, Where Your smile shines and awakens. Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 List Moderators' Note: Members who want to send their appreciations, please just send a private email to the poster instead of to the list. Also please do not include the entire post of the previous sender while sending your reply. We appreciate your cooperation. ============================ This is a beautiful post... Thank you! Soul advaitin , " Mouna " <maunna wrote: > > Dear All, my respects > > Is not surprising that Bhagavan Ramana's devotees think that > Self-Enquiry (as taught by Ramana himself) is all what is needed, since Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > > Namaste, definitions about the " world " maybe are only possible by an imaginary entity, living & breathing (in) an imaginary world & ego. When such entity wake up, there is Self. Where there is Self, there is no " world " . ..... few thoughts only... thanks for the interesting discussions in here. Regards, Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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