Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 praNAms Sri Madathil Nair prabhuji Hare Krishna Thanks for your comments..IMO, jnAni's vyavahAra, jnAni's localized BMI, jnAni's parichinna chaitanya are all self defeating terms & 'bAdhaka' to advaita's non-dual, secondless knowledge...jnAte, dvaitam na vidyate says kArika...Shruti wonders about jnAni's vyavahAra and asks : yatra tvasya sarvaM AtmaivAbhoot tat kena kaM pashyet?? etc.. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Ishvara operates through the macrocosmic mind, while j~nAnI and aj~nAnI operate through local, microcosmic minds. The difference between j~nAnI and aj~nAnI is that the former knows that he is brahman, the latter does not. This is what distinguishes the j~nAnI form the aj~nAnI – the former has gained self-knowledge *in the mind*. Otherwise, they are the same (both are already brahman, whether they know it or not).praNAms Sri Dennis Waite prabhujiHare KrishnaI can go with your line of thinking with regard to jnAni & ajnAni prabhuji...But my question is with regard to jnAni & Ishwara..If we say Ishwara has the samashti upAdhi (macrocosmic mind) and jnAni has ONLY vyashti upAdhi...then it is as good as saying jnAni is 'still' entwined with limited adjuncts (localized BMI)..If that is the case then it is not an absolute state of realization (paripUrNa jnAna)...As you know there is no jeeva (paricchinna chaitanya) as such apart from chaitanya's seeming contact with limited adjuncts...So, IMO, a jnAni an embodiment (if I can say so!!) of jnAna itself does not have the burden of the vyashti upAdhi i.e. microcosmic mind!!Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Dear Bhaskar-ji, The j~nAnI is no longer identified with the vyaShTi mind. It is to this extent that he is no longer ‘limited by’ it. But clearly he still has one, until the death of the body. Otherwise, he would no longer be able to function in the world. If, for example, he only saw through samaShTi mind, how would he avoid having his body bump into things as it moved around? I think we have been around this circle before! If there are responses to the effect that it is only other, aj~nAnI-s who claim to see the j~nAnI’s body still there, I will give up! Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Bhaskar YR Monday, January 12, 2009 12:34 PM advaitin RE: Re: Gita Satsangh Chapter 13 Verses 1 to 2 I can go with your line of thinking with regard to jnAni & ajnAni prabhuji...But my question is with regard to jnAni & Ishwara..If we say Ishwara has the samashti upAdhi (macrocosmic mind) and jnAni has ONLY vyashti upAdhi...then it is as good as saying jnAni is 'still' entwined with limited adjuncts (localized BMI)..If that is the case then it is not an absolute state of realization (paripUrNa jnAna)...As you know there is no jeeva (paricchinna chaitanya) as such apart from chaitanya's seeming contact with limited adjuncts...So, IMO, a jnAni an embodiment (if I can say so!!) of jnAna itself does not have the burden of the vyashti upAdhi i.e. microcosmic mind!! Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar _ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > > praNAms Sri Madathil Nair prabhuji > Hare Krishna > > Thanks for your comments..IMO, jnAni's vyavahAra, jnAni's localized BMI, > jnAni's parichinna chaitanya are all self defeating terms & 'bAdhaka' to > advaita's non-dual, secondless knowledge...jnAte, dvaitam na vidyate says > kArika...Shruti wonders about jnAni's vyavahAra and asks : yatra tvasya > sarvaM AtmaivAbhoot tat kena kaM pashyet?? etc.. > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar Dear Bhaskar-ji, You have quoted the br up. atement " yatra tvasya---- " . Does this mean that the jnAni does not see, hear , smell etc., anything at all? My understanding is that it means that he sees, hears, etc., nothing different from himself because everything is AtmA or brahman for him. He sees the world of variety as any ignorant man sees, but he does not make any difference among them such as one is a friend, one is a stranger, or one is a dangerous animal,etc because all are the same as himself, being all brahman. He has a body and mind but unlike us he does not identify himself with his body and mind. The Ch. up.says " priyApriye na spRishatah " . That means that he is not affected by the pleasant and the unpleasant as we are. If he has no mind of his own at all, the question of his having ideas of pleasant and unpleasant cannot arise at all and so it would not be necessary for the shruti to make such a denial. As you know, the principle is that not even one word in the shruti is superfluous or without a specific pirpose. So what the shruti implies is that pleasant and npleasant things can happen to a jnAni also, but he is not touched by them. When Ramana Maharshi was speaking to his devotees was he not functioning in the vyAvahrika realm? Was he not using his own mind to give answers? He even used to joke with them like any ordinary person. But all the time he knew that he was brahman while we do not know. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 praNAms, I have just seen that people more learned than me have already asked the questions that I have raised, in a more suaver manner. My humble pranams to them. Ramakrishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I think we have been around this circle before! If there are responses to the effect that it is only other, aj~nAnI-s who claim to see the j~nAnI’s body still there, I will give up!praNAms Sri Dennis Waite prabhujiHare KrishnaYes, it is our own ajnAna that is the cause for seeing the 'body' & 'mind' of 'a' jnAni...it is our (ajnAni-s) own limited vision to attribute an entangled chaitanya to the jnAni/brahman. It is ajnAnis' perception that Bhagavan RamaNa, 'a' jnAni has a 6 feet tall thin body, which sneezes, coughs, thinks & sometimes jokes & undergoes surgery & finally goes & merge in paNcha bhuta..But as far as jnAni is concerned he is always ashareeri (trishvapi kAleshu, shankara insists here) nitya, shuddha, buddha, mukta sacchidAnanda Atman without any bodily limitations...chidAnanda rUpaM shivohaM shivohaM is the assertion of the jnAni.Hari Hari Hari Bol!!bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Humble sAshtAnga praNAms Respected Sri Sastri prabhuji Hare Krishna Sri Sastri prabhuji : You have quoted the br up. atement " yatra tvasya---- " . Does this mean that the jnAni does not see, hear , smell etc., anything at all? My understanding is that it means that he sees, hears, etc., nothing different from himself because everything is AtmA or brahman for him. bhaskar : Yes, you are absolutely right prabhuji...when there is 'nothing' different from himself then only shruti vAkya tat kena kaM pashyet?? etc. can be understood...After all for the jnAni, there is no second entity or anAtma vastu to say I've the limited localized BMI, through that, I'd see 'other' limited paricchinna chaitanya-s in different compartments of BMI..For HIM, left, right, top, bottom, inside, outside everything is brahman only, in short he is avikAri brahman or secondless brahman himself, how can we fabricate an anAtma inert body and say he still has a localized body & senses?? Dont you think it is the ajnAna drushti of mortals like me prabhuji ?? Sri Sastri prabhuji : He sees the world of variety as any ignorant man sees, but he does not make any difference among them such as one is a friend, one is a stranger, or one is a dangerous animal,etc because all are the same as himself, being all brahman. He has a body and mind but unlike us he does not identify himself with his body and mind. bhaskar : again, I'd like to humbly submit that, the statement 'jnAni has a body & mind' is our own limited vision of the jnAna / jnAni..When there is no friend or foe for him, when his vision is *sarvaM samaM*...how can we still say he has the paricchinna chaitanya in a localized BMI?? how can he still thinks that he is jnAni & " see " ajnAna in others?? atascha idaM shAtrIyaM brahmAtatvaM avagamyamAnaM svAbhAvikasya shArIrAtmatvasya bAdhakaM saMpadyate..says shankara in sUtra bhAshya...Does it mean immediately after jnAna, the body of the jnAni should go!! No, 'bAdhaka' (sublation) is the punch word here which explains the 'socalled' jnAni's vyavahAra to the inquisitive minds of mortals...But as far as jnAni is concerned shankara says : idaM brahma yekarasaM AptavyaM Atmaiva na anyadasteeti..avidyAyA nivrutatvAt iha brahmaNi nAnA nAsti kiNchana *aNumAtramapi*..Prabhuji, you can see, how shankara insisting the absolute non-duality in the state of realization by emphasizing the fact by saying 'aNumAtramapi'...Sarva vaidika and loukika vyavahAra is in the realm of avidyA, since jnAni transcends this avidyA, we cannot say jnAni is still doing this *avidyA vyavahAra* by seeing the reality in duality... Anyway, this is my understanding, kindly correct me if I am wrong here. Humble praNAms onceagain Sri Sastri prabhuji Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 The self-realized one's body and mind are simply the botheration of the not-self-realized-ones. praNAms Sri MN prabhuji Hare Krishna That is a beautiful summarization of whole issue...Sri Mouna prabhuji's apt quote from the dialogues of Sri Ramana is worth mentioning here to substantiate the claim that body of jnAni is the worry of bodily mortals :-)) : // quote // Question:In the jnani the ego subsists in the pure form and therefore it appears as something real. Am I right? Sri Ramana Maharshi: The existence of the ego in any form, either in the jnani or ajnani, is itself an experience. But to the ajnani who is deluded into thinking that the waking state and the world are real, the ego also appears to be real. Since he sees the jnani act like other individuals, he feels constrained to posit some notion of individuality with reference to the jnani also. // unquote // Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > > The self-realized one's body and mind are simply the botheration of the > not-self-realized-ones. > > > praNAms Sri MN prabhuji > > > Hare Krishna > > > That is a beautiful summarization of whole issue...Sri Mouna prabhuji's apt > quote from the dialogues of Sri Ramana is worth mentioning here to > substantiate the claim that body of jnAni is the worry of bodily mortals > :-)) : > > > // quote // > > > Question:In the jnani the ego subsists in the pure form and therefore it > appears as something real. Am I right? > > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: The existence of the ego in any form, either in the > jnani or ajnani, is itself an experience. But to the ajnani who is deluded > into thinking that the waking state and the world are real, the ego also > appears to be real. Since he sees the jnani act like other individuals, he > feels constrained to posit some notion of individuality with reference to > the jnani also. > > > // unquote // > > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > > > bhaskar > thanks for you message why do " jnani's " care soo much about " ajnani's " ....? are such " jnani's " realy " jnani's " ? Brahman could/should care about who?..... Where does " Grace " come from....if not from/within/by/to an ajnani's mind during the process of waking up...?... How could a jnani Be and act within the imaginary world of an ajnani.....? The appearence of a jnani within the imaginary world of an ajnani.....is it not the appearence of the Self....means, real Self.......to be realised.....?.... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Dear Dennis Travis, AjnAnis are Brahman in reality. Brahman is Love. Brahman has nothing other than It to love. It is LOVE or, in other words, It is in love with Itself. That is the reason why we love ourselves most. We are the dearest to ourselves is an oft-quoted statement of fact in Vedanta. In the phenomenal of duality, Brahman's love for Brahman (LOVE) expresses as Grace. Hope this answers your questions. Best regards. Madathil Nair ___________________ advaitin , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > why do " jnani's " care soo much about " ajnani's " ....? > are such " jnani's " realy " jnani's " ? > > Brahman could/should care about who?..... > > Where does " Grace " come from....if not from/within/by/to an ajnani's > mind during the process of waking up...?... > > How could a jnani Be and act within the imaginary world of an > ajnani.....? > > The appearence of a jnani within the imaginary world of an > ajnani.....is it not the appearence of the Self....means, real > Self.......to be realised.....?.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 advaitin , " Madathil Rajendran Nair " <madathilnair wrote: > > Dear Dennis Travis, > > AjnAnis are Brahman in reality. Brahman is Love. Brahman has > nothing other than It to love. It is LOVE or, in other words, It is > in love with Itself. That is the reason why we love ourselves > most. We are the dearest to ourselves is an oft-quoted statement of > fact in Vedanta. In the phenomenal of duality, Brahman's love for > Brahman (LOVE) expresses as Grace. Hope this answers your questions. > > Best regards. > > Madathil Nair > ___________________ > Dear Madathil Nair, thank you for your words... You talk much about Love....it's clear that Love is the " key " ....no doubt.... " Brahman is Love " ?.....nice statement.... ...... Ajnanis are Brahman in reality....indeed, they aren't this their imaginary world & ego appearence....but they are Brahman. " Brahman is Love " ?.....nice statement.... ..... Personally, would say that " God is Love " ..... Maybe my view isn't the view of a real advaitin....i'm not a learned member into Advaita and the scriptures....but it's interesting to follow some talks in here..... how to find " God " ....other than in Self-realisation...?.....means, by this power and energy of Love...which hold on wholeness (Oneness) of imaginary world and the related more or less ego-minded perciever... God and world are always related.... A " jnani " can't watch the world without the energy of Love....represented by the presense of " God " so......wholeness of Being. So " where " is Brahman then?.... Brahman is Home.....for/of all jnanis and ajnanis.... Kind Regards, Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Well, dear Dennisji. If that were the case, I am a jnAni now, which I know I am not because even trifles irritate me. In 8, I didn't mean any deliberate action. It has to happen. You won't fail to notice the quotation marks around the verb/noun I have used in order to drive this point home. Thank you for reading the whole thing. I have been sadly misinterpreted in the past because my listeners never had time to go through my arguments. Perhaps, they thought I can never say anything right and they were always right. Best regards. Madathil Nair ____________________ advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Dear Nair-ji, > > It is very valuable to set out your position, point by point, in this way. I > suggest that the place where you diverge from the teaching of Shankara is > point 8. As I pointed out in a recent post, Shankara states that brahman is > not a sAdhya (something to be accomplished); it is not something that is the > result of action, acquisition, production, transformation, purification. It > is already the case; the aj~nAnI simply does not realize this truth in his > mind. (This is elaborately explained in BSB I.i.4) All that happens (!) on > enlightenment is that this realization dawns in the mind and instantly it is > known that 'I have always been brahman; there is only brahman'. *Nothing > else changes!* There is no 'merging' or 'blossoming'; there is simply the > oneness that there always was - but the j~nAnI now knows this to be the > case. The world still appears in all its seeming plurality; there are still > apparent, other jIva-s etc. But it is now known that this is only mithyA. > > Best wishes, > > Dennis > > > > advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf > Of Madathil Rajendran Nair > Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:12 AM > advaitin > Re: Gita Satsangh Chapter 13 Verses 1 to 2 > > > > 8. This means that, in self-realization, an erstwhile individual > entity `goes' whole into fullness without duality which it > unknowingly was even before. Since BMI is the seat of individuality, > the `transformation' of the individual entity into universal fullness > connotes transcendence of BMI - a full blossoming of the individual > mind into universal consciousness. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Dear Dennis-ji, I prefer to go by fact than terminology. That is why I studiously avoided the excessive use of Sanskrit terms in my mail.I am neither jIvanmukta nor jnAni. I am a talker. I refuse to be deluded into believing that Vedanta can deliver any result beforfe chittashuddhi results in spontaneous akhaNdAkAravritti. Best regards. Madathil Nair ____________________ advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Dear Nair-ji, > > I suggest that you are not differentiating between j~nAna and jIvanmukti. > You can know the truth and yet still be irritated by trifles. Whether or not > you are a j~nAnI is determined by whether or not you have eliminated > self-ignorance in the mind. Whether or not you have peace of mind etc > (j~nAna phalam) is determined by whether or not you completely gained > sAdhanA chatuShTaya sampatti prior to eliminating the self- ignorance. If > not, you need to do further nididhyAsana. This is discussed by Gaudapada and > Shankara in the kArikA-s. > > Best wishes, > > Dennis > > > > advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf > Of Madathil Rajendran Nair > Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:56 AM > advaitin > Re: Gita Satsangh Chapter 13 Verses 1 to 2 > > > > Well, dear Dennisji. > > If that were the case, I am a jnAni now, which I know I am not > because even trifles irritate me. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Dear Dennis Travis-ji, Yes. God is Love. The IsAvAsyopanishad thunders that all this is pervaded by God. Elsewhere in the upanishads, it is stated that all this is Brahman. So, for practical purposes, we need not distinguish between God and Brahman. If Brahman is Love, God too is love. No two opinions about it. If God is all this, then you don't have to find Him. Do you? Isn't He right here everywhere? If you love everyone as you love yourself knowing that everything is the Lord, you will defiitely self-realize. In fact, that is self-realization. Best regards and best of luck. Madathil Nair _________________ advaitin , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Personally, would say that " God is Love " ..... > > Maybe my view isn't the view of a real advaitin....i'm not a learned > member into Advaita and the scriptures....but it's interesting to > follow some talks in here..... > > how to find " God " ....other than in Self-realisation...?.....means, by > this power and energy of Love...which hold on wholeness (Oneness) of > imaginary world and the related more or less ego-minded perciever... > > God and world are always related.... > A " jnani " can't watch the world without the energy of > Love....represented by the presense of " God " so......wholeness of > Being. > > So " where " is Brahman then?.... > > Brahman is Home.....for/of all jnanis and ajnanis.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Why would a jnAni like Shankara say " mano buddhyanakara chittani naham " ?? When He has transcended all duality without a trace what would He be talking about? and with what instrument? and to whom? Do you really want to take a position that it is only us ajnAnis who think he is saying that - in reality there is no Shankara who is saying that? You lay so much emphasis - rightly so - on his prasthana trayi bhashyas to expound the mula siddhanta of advaita - if in reality it is just our ignorance that we think He labored to write those voluminous bhashyas on (?illusory) palmyra leaves, then what to speak of our faith in what is written? praNAms Sri Shyam prabhuji Hare Krishna First of all, sorry I forgot to congratulate you on becoming one of the moderators of this august & decorous forum prabhuji... I heartily welcome you & wish you all success in your special endeavor prabhuji. Hope to see more scholarly mails from your goodself. With regard to your series of questions, why?, who?, what?, when? where? etc. I would like to say, yes these questions could arise only in the realm of avidyA vyavahAra & there is no need for a jnAni to impose himself with this type of space & time bound questions...His jnAna annihilates all samshaya-s like above (chidyante sarva saMshayAH)...So, questions you are asking about shankara and shankara's writings of comprehensive bhAshya, our adhyayana and socalled enlightenment etc. etc. are in the broader umbrealla of avidyA only (sarva loukika, vaidika vyavahAra & mOksha too says shankara in adhyAsa bhAshya)..So, for your question : in reality there is no shankara?? yes, in reality there is no shankara, nor bhaskara nor shankara-bhaskara :-)) Since we are in avidyA vyavahAra, doing vyavahAra with upAdhi-s, these are appearing as solid reality to us...but from siddhAnta drushti, for which shAstra is the ultimate pramANa, yourself, myself & socalled shankara self etc. etc. kevala vAchArambhaNam...You know, we cannot carry this vAchAraMbhaNam nAma dheyaM to the 'post realization period' (sorry words are defeating the purpose here :-)) & put fence to the jnAni with localized indriya-s & chaitanya :-)) Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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