Guest guest Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3 Detachment is the key to lasting happiness. True and lasting happiness can result only if the mind is permanently kept calm. This can be achieved only if desires, which are the cause of mental agitation, are completely eliminated. We are therefore led to the conclusion that total detachment towards all worldly pleasures (Vairagya) is the only means for the attainment of true and lasting happiness, which is brahmAnanda. Vairagya is the most essential requisite for a person who wishes to attain Self-knowledge, which alone will lead to eternal bliss. It is said in vivekachUDAmaNi that one who attempts to attain Self-knowledge without cultivating dispassion is like a person trying to cross a river on the back of a crocodile, mistaking it for a floating log of wood. He is sure to be eaten up by the crocodile midway. The essential requisite for a spiritual aspirant is purity of mind. There are six enemies of the spiritual aspirant and all these arise in the mind These are desire, anger, greed, infatuation, pride, and jealousy. Of these, the first, desire, is the cause of all the other five. That is why so much stress is laid on rooting out of desire from the mind. The chandogya upanishad explains how the mind can be made pure. ch. up. 7.26.2 says: AhArashuddhau sattvashuddhiH—--- "From purity of food follows purity of the internal organ (mind). From the purification of the internal organ unfailing memory results. When memory is attained, all the knots of the heart are cut asunder". Shri Shankara explains this passage thus in his bhAshya: By food is meant all that is enjoyed through the senses. What is meant is that all enjoyments should be free of all defects such as attachment, repulsion or delusion. When all enjoyments are pure, the internal organ becomes pure. From the purification of the internal organ there arises continuous memory of the Infinite Self. Then follows the destruction of all the bonds born of nescience which had become hardened by the vAsanas accumulated over innumerable lives. Therefore one should ensure that everything that one enjoys is pure. (Concluded) S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Namasthe, B.G. verses 3/33, 34 & 35 (sadR^isha.n..... bhayAvahaH) have, I think, shown a practical way to move towards detachment. Identifying and practising 'swadharma', it seems, the key to purge 'vasanas'. This is where most fumble mainly due to lack of proper guidance and encouragement. Regards Balagopal Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 " When there is stillness and peace, it is called Pure Consciousness. When there is ocsillation and agitation, it is mind. " Some months back, I saw this in Sri Sastriji's web page if I remember well (may be in Panchadasi). Jai Guru, Natarajan advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote: > > The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3 > > > *Detachment is the key to lasting happiness.* > > * * > > True and lasting happiness can result only if the mind is permanently > kept calm. This can be achieved only if desires, which are the cause of > mental agitation, are completely eliminated. We are therefore led to the > conclusion that total detachment towards all worldly pleasures (Vairagya) is > the only means for the attainment of true and lasting happiness, which is > brahmAnanda. > > Vairagya is the most essential requisite for a person who wishes to > attain Self-knowledge, which alone will lead to eternal bliss. It is said in > vivekachUDAmaNi that one who attempts to attain Self-knowledge without > cultivating dispassion is like a person trying to cross a river on the back > of a crocodile, mistaking it for a floating log of wood. He is sure to be > eaten up by the crocodile midway. > > > > The essential requisite for a spiritual aspirant is purity of mind. There > are six enemies of the spiritual aspirant and all these arise in the mind > These are desire, anger, greed, infatuation, pride, and jealousy. Of these, > the first, desire, is the cause of all the other five. That is why so much > stress is laid on rooting out of desire from the mind. The chandogya > upanishad explains how the mind can be made pure. > > ch. up. 7.26.2 says: AhArashuddhau sattvashuddhiH—--- > > " From purity of food follows purity of the internal organ (mind). From the > purification of the internal organ unfailing memory results. When memory is > attained, all the knots of the heart are cut asunder " . > > Shri Shankara explains this passage thus in his bhAshya: By food is meant > all that is enjoyed through the senses. What is meant is that all enjoyments > should be free of all defects such as attachment, repulsion or delusion. > When all enjoyments are pure, the internal organ becomes pure. From the > purification of the internal organ there arises continuous memory of the > Infinite Self. Then follows the destruction of all the bonds born of > nescience which had become hardened by the vAsanas accumulated over > innumerable lives. Therefore one should ensure that everything that one > enjoys is pure. > > > > (Concluded) > > S.N.Sastri > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 From : H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all advaitin , " P R Natarajan " <ntrjnpr wrote: > > > " When there is stillness and peace, it is called Pure Consciousness. > > When there is ocsillation and agitation, it is mind. " > > Some months back, I saw this in Sri Sastriji's web page if I remember > well (may be in Panchadasi). Dear Sri Natarajan, A small ammendment to the statement " When there is ocsillation and agitation, it is mind. " The ammendment is : When there is oscillation and agitation, it is Pure Consciousness (Brahman/Atman/Self) appearing as mind. Oscillation and agitation are Brahman only since they arise from Brahman, and dissolve back to Brahman. Venerable Sri Sastriji,I may please be corrected if my understanding is erroneous. With warm and respectful regards, Sreenivasa Murthy. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Pranams to all,How can you give some attributes to Brahman and call it still BRahman?Brahman is Nirgunam;nirvikalpa;nirswarupam;s.rajah iyerhttp://www.acupressuresocks.com http://www.srajahiyer.sulekha.com/--- On Mon, 1/5/09, narayana145 <narayana145 wrote:narayana145 <narayana145 Re: The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3advaitin Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 6:53 AM From : H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all advaitin@ s.com, "P R Natarajan" <ntrjnpr > wrote: > > > "When there is stillness and peace, it is called Pure Consciousness. > > When there is ocsillation and agitation, it is mind." > > Some months back, I saw this in Sri Sastriji's web page if I remember > well (may be in Panchadasi). Dear Sri Natarajan, A small ammendment to the statement "When there is ocsillation and agitation, it is mind." The ammendment is : When there is oscillation and agitation, it is Pure Consciousness (Brahman/Atman/ Self) appearing as mind. Oscillation and agitation are Brahman only since they arise from Brahman, and dissolve back to Brahman. Venerable Sri Sastriji,I may please be corrected if my understanding is erroneous. With warm and respectful regards, Sreenivasa Murthy. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Dear Shri Shastri Ji, Jai Guru! Beautiful exposition of how to attain everlasting happiness! Detachment of the mind is the key to perpetual happiness. But, how would this detachment come about? Mind has a natural tendency to be attracted to the very objects it must stay away from in order to realise the Self and the resulting pure bliss, so why would it agree to be reined in and diverted away from these objects it takes so much of pleasure in? One has to try & restrain it. That restraint may be tried to be effected through intellectual counselling, but such restraint would be temporary and might be lost anytime, under moments of weakness, unless & until such intellectualisation (which is highly desirable - essential too) is sincerely, regularly & rigorously supported by meditation. It is in the highest stage of meditation, which is nadanusandhAn, that the mind is totally conquered and develops spontaneous complete detachment leading to pure bliss which is never lost or diminished in intensity even while performing worldly acts. So, grasping or perceiving the Quintessential unstruck sound, the anAhat nAda, is of the umost importance. Regards! Praveshadvaitin , "S.N. Sastri" <sn.sastri wrote:>> The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3> > > *Detachment is the key to lasting happiness.*> > * *> > True and lasting happiness can result only if the mind is permanently> kept calm. This can be achieved only if desires, which are the cause of> mental agitation, are completely eliminated. We are therefore led to the> conclusion that total detachment towards all worldly pleasures (Vairagya) is> the only means for the attainment of true and lasting happiness, which is> brahmAnanda.> > Vairagya is the most essential requisite for a person who wishes to> attain Self-knowledge, which alone will lead to eternal bliss. It is said in> vivekachUDAmaNi that one who attempts to attain Self-knowledge without> cultivating dispassion is like a person trying to cross a river on the back> of a crocodile, mistaking it for a floating log of wood. He is sure to be> eaten up by the crocodile midway.> > > > The essential requisite for a spiritual aspirant is purity of mind. There> are six enemies of the spiritual aspirant and all these arise in the mind> These are desire, anger, greed, infatuation, pride, and jealousy. Of these,> the first, desire, is the cause of all the other five. That is why so much> stress is laid on rooting out of desire from the mind. The chandogya> upanishad explains how the mind can be made pure.> > ch. up. 7.26.2 says: AhArashuddhau sattvashuddhiH—---> > "From purity of food follows purity of the internal organ (mind). From the> purification of the internal organ unfailing memory results. When memory is> attained, all the knots of the heart are cut asunder".> > Shri Shankara explains this passage thus in his bhAshya: By food is meant> all that is enjoyed through the senses. What is meant is that all enjoyments> should be free of all defects such as attachment, repulsion or delusion.> When all enjoyments are pure, the internal organ becomes pure. From the> purification of the internal organ there arises continuous memory of the> Infinite Self. Then follows the destruction of all the bonds born of> nescience which had become hardened by the vAsanas accumulated over> innumerable lives. Therefore one should ensure that everything that one> enjoys is pure.> > > > (Concluded)> > S.N.Sastri> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Reverence to All! Mind has to be completely stilled to experience that everlasting peace, never-diminishing bliss, to be one with Him. However, it is not easy to quieten the mind. We have to keep intellectually counselling it to detach itself from things worldly, from the objects of senses. But the affinity of the mind for these objects is so strong that mere intellectualisation may fail at times, and hence, has to be supplemented with, more importantly at that, sincere, regular & rigorous meditation. It is only during the higher stages of meditation, that of nAdAnusandhAn, that mind comes to be completely reined in. As the practitioner grasps or perceives the Quintessential Unstruck Sound, the anAhat NAda, or the sAra shabda, that mind gets completely controlled...it turns away, quite spontaneously at that, from the sensory objects, finding them too tasteless to fall back upon. That is why, nAdAnusandhAn, or surat shabd yoga has been treated to be the highest, most exquisite form of worship or meditation by the sants. Regards! Pravesh advaitin , SURI <SURI441 wrote: > > Pranams to all, > How can you give some attributes to Brahman and call it still BRahman? > Brahman is Nirgunam;nirvikalpa;nirswarupam; > s.rajah iyer > > http://www.acupressuresocks.com > > http://www.srajahiyer.sulekha.com/ > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, narayana145 <narayana145 wrote: > narayana145 <narayana145 > Re: The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3 > advaitin > Monday, January 5, 2009, 6:53 AM > > > > > From : H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy > > Pranams to all > > > > advaitin@ s.com, " P R Natarajan " <ntrjnpr@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > " When there is stillness and peace, it is called Pure Consciousness. > > > > > > When there is ocsillation and agitation, it is mind. " > > > > > > Some months back, I saw this in Sri Sastriji's web page if I remember > > > well (may be in Panchadasi). > > > > Dear Sri Natarajan, > > > > A small ammendment to the statement " When there is ocsillation and > > agitation, it is mind. " The ammendment is : > > When there is oscillation and agitation, > > it is Pure Consciousness (Brahman/Atman/ Self) appearing as mind. > > > > Oscillation and agitation are Brahman only since they arise from > > Brahman, and dissolve back to Brahman. > > > > Venerable Sri Sastriji,I may please be corrected if my understanding > > is erroneous. > > > > With warm and respectful regards, > > Sreenivasa Murthy. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 advaitin , " P R Natarajan " <ntrjnpr wrote: > > > " When there is stillness and peace, it is called Pure Consciousness. > > When there is ocsillation and agitation, it is mind. " > > Some months back, I saw this in Sri Sastriji's web page if I remember > well (may be in Panchadasi). > > Jai Guru, > > Natarajan Dear Natarajan-ji, Please do not make such statements and attribute them to me without making sure. You have said that you vaguely remember some such statement. Others take it as true and begin to give their remarks. I do not remember to have made any such statement. I am not capable of making such profound-looking statements.Please point out where it is on my website. It is wrong to attribute some statement to some one without making sure. If you point out where it is, then I shall see in what context it has been made and whether it is a quotation. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri > > > > > > advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri@> wrote: > > > > The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3 > > > > > > *Detachment is the key to lasting happiness.* > > > > * * > > > > True and lasting happiness can result only if the mind is permanently > > kept calm. This can be achieved only if desires, which are the cause > of > > mental agitation, are completely eliminated. We are therefore led to > the > > conclusion that total detachment towards all worldly pleasures > (Vairagya) is > > the only means for the attainment of true and lasting happiness, which > is > > brahmAnanda. > > > > Vairagya is the most essential requisite for a person who wishes to > > attain Self-knowledge, which alone will lead to eternal bliss. It is > said in > > vivekachUDAmaNi that one who attempts to attain Self-knowledge without > > cultivating dispassion is like a person trying to cross a river on the > back > > of a crocodile, mistaking it for a floating log of wood. He is sure to > be > > eaten up by the crocodile midway. > > > > > > > > The essential requisite for a spiritual aspirant is purity of mind. > There > > are six enemies of the spiritual aspirant and all these arise in the > mind > > These are desire, anger, greed, infatuation, pride, and jealousy. Of > these, > > the first, desire, is the cause of all the other five. That is why so > much > > stress is laid on rooting out of desire from the mind. The chandogya > > upanishad explains how the mind can be made pure. > > > > ch. up. 7.26.2 says: AhArashuddhau sattvashuddhiH—--- > > > > " From purity of food follows purity of the internal organ (mind). From > the > > purification of the internal organ unfailing memory results. When > memory is > > attained, all the knots of the heart are cut asunder " . > > > > Shri Shankara explains this passage thus in his bhAshya: By food is > meant > > all that is enjoyed through the senses. What is meant is that all > enjoyments > > should be free of all defects such as attachment, repulsion or > delusion. > > When all enjoyments are pure, the internal organ becomes pure. From > the > > purification of the internal organ there arises continuous memory of > the > > Infinite Self. Then follows the destruction of all the bonds born of > > nescience which had become hardened by the vAsanas accumulated over > > innumerable lives. Therefore one should ensure that everything that > one > > enjoys is pure. > > > > > > > > (Concluded) > > > > S.N.Sastri > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote: > > The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3 > > > *Detachment is the key to lasting happiness.* > > > (Concluded) > > S.N.Sastri Pranams Sri Sastriji, Thank you for posting the above essays in three parts. It has been most instructive and informative. May I seek some clarifications? 1. Relational and mediate/ Non-relational and immediate Could you kindly elaborate on this concept a bit for my understanding? 2. `Antahakarana' vs ` Trikarana' It has been clarified that the term `Antahakarana' as used by various texts refers to the Mind and conceives it as comprising the four aspects of manas, buddhi, chitta and ahamkAra. One comes across the term `Trikarana shuddhi'. The three instruments are normally clarified as manas, buddhi and ahamkAra. Presumably the idea of chitta is included in the term ahamkAra. This is understandable because there appears to be a cause-effect relationship between chitta and ahamkAra . That is, egoity or individuality results from the chitta or memories or vasanas. Kindly confirm this understanding. 3. Detachment or Vairagya AhamkAra is also described as the six `enemies', that is, Kama (desire), Krodha(anger), Moha(attachment), Lobha(greed), Mada (conceit) and Matsarya(jealousy). How does one eradicate these feelings? Buddhi or intellect alone has to play a part, by the exercise of its inherent power of discrimination or viveka. It is this viveka that bestows vairagya, It is the intellect that helps the mind to turn away towards the Reality. Kindly confirm this understanding. 4. Individual and Cosmic Mind It is stated that in advaita, the mind is considered of medium dimension (madhyama pariNAma) and can be considered to pervade the body. In the Mandukya Upanishad (sloka 3), the individual Mind (sukshma sharirA) is described as ` Taijasa'. Sri Sankara in his Bhashya on this sloka mentions a Cosmic mind as the aggregate subtle body of the universe as `HiranyagarbhA'. Thus it can perhaps be said that the individual mind is a part of the Total or Cosmic mind. This could explain the `mental' interconnection between human beings such as telepathy, hypnosis, clairvoyance etc. Kindly confirm this understanding. These basic queries must surely have arisen in the past on this forum and there may be records of the same. I will definitely refer to them. I am also aware that Sri Sadanandaji in his beautiful work `An Introduction to Vedanta' (available on Sri Dennisji's website) has covered them and I am in the process of assimilating the same. Meanwhile I seek your kind advice on the four points above. Warm regards and Pranams Mohan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Dear Sastri-ji, I am sorry for stating from my vague rememberence that the nice explanation was seen in your web site. I shall be careful in future. I recollect that it was from a Tamil book with commentaries on Satasloki and not from your web page. I apologize for the mistake. That explanation was very good and I thought that I should share it with the members. Jai Guru. With regards, Natarajan advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote: > > advaitin , " P R Natarajan " ntrjnpr@ wrote: > > > > > > " When there is stillness and peace, it is called Pure > Consciousness. > > > > When there is ocsillation and agitation, it is mind. " > > > > Some months back, I saw this in Sri Sastriji's web page if I > remember > > well (may be in Panchadasi). > > > > Jai Guru, > > > > Natarajan > > Dear Natarajan-ji, > Please do not make such statements and attribute them to me without > making sure. You have said that you vaguely remember some such > statement. Others take it as true and begin to give their remarks. I > do not remember to have made any such statement. I am not capable of > making such profound-looking statements.Please point out where it is > on my website. It is wrong to attribute some statement to some one > without making sure. If you point out where it is, then I shall see > in what context it has been made and whether it is a quotation. > Best wishes, > S.N.Sastri > > > > > > > > > > > > advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri@> wrote: > > > > > > The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3 > > > > > > > > > *Detachment is the key to lasting happiness.* > > > > > > * * > > > > > > True and lasting happiness can result only if the mind is > permanently > > > kept calm. This can be achieved only if desires, which are the > cause > > of > > > mental agitation, are completely eliminated. We are therefore > led to > > the > > > conclusion that total detachment towards all worldly pleasures > > (Vairagya) is > > > the only means for the attainment of true and lasting happiness, > which > > is > > > brahmAnanda. > > > > > > Vairagya is the most essential requisite for a person who wishes > to > > > attain Self-knowledge, which alone will lead to eternal bliss. > It is > > said in > > > vivekachUDAmaNi that one who attempts to attain Self-knowledge > without > > > cultivating dispassion is like a person trying to cross a river > on the > > back > > > of a crocodile, mistaking it for a floating log of wood. He is > sure to > > be > > > eaten up by the crocodile midway. > > > > > > > > > > > > The essential requisite for a spiritual aspirant is purity of > mind. > > There > > > are six enemies of the spiritual aspirant and all these arise in > the > > mind > > > These are desire, anger, greed, infatuation, pride, and > jealousy. Of > > these, > > > the first, desire, is the cause of all the other five. That is > why so > > much > > > stress is laid on rooting out of desire from the mind. The > chandogya > > > upanishad explains how the mind can be made pure. > > > > > > ch. up. 7.26.2 says: AhArashuddhau sattvashuddhiH—--- > > > > > > " From purity of food follows purity of the internal organ > (mind). From > > the > > > purification of the internal organ unfailing memory results. When > > memory is > > > attained, all the knots of the heart are cut asunder " . > > > > > > Shri Shankara explains this passage thus in his bhAshya: By food > is > > meant > > > all that is enjoyed through the senses. What is meant is that all > > enjoyments > > > should be free of all defects such as attachment, repulsion or > > delusion. > > > When all enjoyments are pure, the internal organ becomes pure. > From > > the > > > purification of the internal organ there arises continuous > memory of > > the > > > Infinite Self. Then follows the destruction of all the bonds > born of > > > nescience which had become hardened by the vAsanas accumulated > over > > > innumerable lives. Therefore one should ensure that everything > that > > one > > > enjoys is pure. > > > > > > > > > > > > (Concluded) > > > > > > S.N.Sastri > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 PranAms Mohan-ji I await with you Respected Shastri-ji's answers to your questions. Wanted to make a couple of minor points in the meantime *** "The three instruments are normally clarified as manas, buddhi and ahamkAra. Presumably the idea of chitta is included in the term ahamkAra. This is understandable because there appears to be a cause-effect relationship between chitta and ahamkAra ." *** According to the Vedanta Sara by Sadananda - the chitta is included in the intellect(buddhi) and the ahankAra in the mind(manas) respectively. (Ch 2: 66-67). AhankAra in the sense of a i-sense and do-ership(aham kartA) is of course due to avidyA, which itself is beginningless. This kartrva bhAva alone leads to infinite karmas which inturn lead to formation of innumerable vAsanAs as well, all from beginningless time. Further, *** "How does one eradicate these feelings? Buddhi or intellect alone has to play a part, by theexercise of its inherent power of discrimination or viveka." *** Yes - the intellect alone is in the driver's seat - reference to the beautiful rathakalpana [chariot imagery] in the Katha Up - the intellect alone by its control over the mind(reins) and in turn horses(sense organs) determines the path for the jivA - towards shreyas or preyas. Hari OM Shri Gurubhyoh namah Shyam --- On Mon, 1/5/09, smnm1010 <smnm1010 wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Further to my original response to Mohan-ji in the ‘'AWARENESS', 'CONSCIOUSNESS' AND 'UNDERSTANDING' IN THE CONTEXT OF VEDANTA’ thread, I would just like to add that Swami Paramarthananda does translate chitta as ‘consciousness’, *not* ‘memory’ in Ch. 4 V. 54 of the kArikA, whereas Swamis Chinmayananda and Nikhilananda, as well as Manilal Divviedi translates it as ‘mind’. In that context (whether matter comes out of chitta or vice versa), it certainly seems that ‘consciousness’ is the correct translation. (Swami Gambhirananda also uses ‘consciousness.) Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Shyam Monday, January 05, 2009 8:32 PM advaitin Re: Re: The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3 PranAms Mohan-ji I await with you Respected Shastri-ji's answers to your questions. Wanted to make a couple of minor points in the meantime *** " The three instruments are normally clarified as manas, buddhi and ahamkAra. Presumably the idea of chitta is included in the term ahamkAra. This is understandable because there appears to be a cause-effect relationship between chitta and ahamkAra . " *** .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Namaste, The analysis of 'antaHkaraNa' or 'sUkShma sharIra' (subtle body) and its 'components' is bound to remain without a solution, for language is not capable of handling it. Every 'part' has an impact on every other part when it is in 'action', just as in the gross body ('sthUla sharIra') any act, eg walking, induces changes in the heart, blood sugar, hormones, etc. Reality is beyond these two and the 'kAraNa sharIra' (causal body), hence preoccupation with such analysis will have a very limited value for the maturation of the requisite 'sAdhana-chatuShTaya' (the 4 pillars to qualify one for j~nAna). Coincidentally, while reading Sw. Vidyaranya's Panchadashi, I came across this verse: yanmanaa~NmananiiM shaktiM dhatte tanmana uchyate || 13:19 || which Sri Sastri-ji has translated as: " ..When Brahman assumes the power of cognition it is called the mind.... " It intrigued me, and would greatly appreciate Sastri-ji's elaboration. Regards, Sunder advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Further to my original response to Mohan-ji in the ''AWARENESS', > 'CONSCIOUSNESS' AND 'UNDERSTANDING' IN THE CONTEXT OF VEDANTA' thread, I > would just like to add that Swami Paramarthananda does translate chitta as > 'consciousness', *not* 'memory' in Ch. 4 V. 54 of the kArikA, whereas Swamis > Chinmayananda and Nikhilananda, as well as Manilal Divviedi translates it as > 'mind'. In that context (whether matter comes out of chitta or vice versa), > it certainly seems that 'consciousness' is the correct translation. (Swami > Gambhirananda also uses 'consciousness.) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 advaitin , " P R Natarajan " <ntrjnpr wrote: > > > Dear Sastri-ji, > > I am sorry for stating from my vague rememberence that the nice > explanation was seen in your web site. I shall be careful in future. I > recollect that it was from a Tamil book with commentaries on Satasloki > and not from your web page. I apologize for the mistake. That > explanation was very good and I thought that I should share it with the > members. > > Jai Guru. > > With regards, > > Natarajan Dear Natarajan-ji, I doubt whether what you call a nice statement is a correct statement. Please check the Tamil work and see whether your translation is correct. I used Shri Guruswamy Sastrigal's Tamil translation for making my English translation which is on my website. He would not have made such a statement. So please see the Tamil translation again. What must have been said is that when pure Consciousness has mind as upadhi it appears to undergo changes. Consciousness by itself cannot undergo any change. Regards, S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 What must have been said is that when pure Consciousness has mind as upadhi it appears to undergo changes. Consciousness by itself cannot undergo any change. Humble praNAms Sri Sastri prabhuji Hare Krishna As per my readings of Sri Nataraj prabhuji's translation, in a broader sense, I dont think it goes against the advaita tattva...The author might have figuratively narrated this point...For example, in the gospel of Sri Ramakrishna paramahamsa, you might have read, paramahamsa used to say when the kundalini is dormant it is shiva & when it moves it is shakti etc. In bruhad saMbhanda vArtika somewhere Sureshwara poetically says *asaMkuchita chit padmaH*..This we cannot take literally & argue that it goes against advaita...I think these are all there in advaita literature to drive home certain points contextually. Just my first 2 naya paisa thoughts for the new year :-)) Kindly correct me if I said anything wrong here. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 advaitin , " Sunder Hattangadi " <sunderh wrote: > Coincidentally, while reading Sw. Vidyaranya's Panchadashi, > I came across this verse: > > yanmanaa~NmananiiM shaktiM dhatte tanmana uchyate || 13:19 || > > which Sri Sastri-ji has translated as: > > " ..When Brahman assumes the power of cognition it is called the > mind.... " > > It intrigued me, and would greatly appreciate Sastri-ji's > elaboration. > > > Regards, > > Sunder Dear Sunder-ji, Please see br. up. 1.4.7 which says—When he (brahman) is breathing he is named prana, when speaking he is named speech, when seeing, eye, when hearing, ear, when thinking, mind; these are only names of actions (karmanAmAni eva). By this it is pointed out that the jIva who is really brahman identifies himself with the sense organs and the mind. The Panchadasi statement which you have quoted says that brahman is identified with the mind when the function of thinking is being performed. This is the same as the br. up. statement quoted above. Regards, S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Pranam to All! Truly said, ["How does one eradicate these feelings? Buddhi or intellect alone has to play a part, by the> exercise of its inherent power of discrimination or viveka."> ***> Yes - the intellect alone is in the driver's seat - reference to the beautiful rathakalpana [chariot imagery] in the Katha Up - the intellect alone by its control over the mind(reins) and in turn horses(sense organs) determines the path for the jivA - towards shreyas or preyas.] However, i'd like to reemphasise the point I'd made eariler. Buddhi no doubt can control and direct mind to a great extent. But its control is not permanent and is likely to slip at times. Mind can be completely subjugated only after nAdAnusandhAn: "Manomatta gajendrasya vishayodyAnachArinah NiyAman samarthoayam ninAdo nishitAnkushah" Several of such similar references can be found in Upanishads regarding conquering the mind. Unless this happens, mind can't be completely & permanently controlled and hence chances of falling back into the trap of the duality of pains & pleasures, of transmigration, would always remain lurking. Regards! Jai Guru! Pravesh advaitin , Shyam <shyam_md wrote:>> PranAms Mohan-ji> I await with you Respected Shastri-ji's answers to your questions.> Wanted to make a couple of minor points in the meantime> ***> "The three instruments are normally clarified as manas, buddhi and ahamkAra. Presumably the idea of chitta is included in the term ahamkAra. This is understandable because there appears to be a cause-effect relationship between chitta and ahamkAra ." > ***> According to the Vedanta Sara by Sadananda - the chitta is included in the intellect(buddhi) and the ahankAra in the mind(manas) respectively. (Ch 2: 66-67). AhankAra in the sense of a i-sense and do-ership(aham kartA) is of course due to avidyA, which itself is beginningless. This kartrva bhAva alone leads to infinite karmas which inturn lead to formation of innumerable vAsanAs as well, all from beginningless time.> > Further,> ***> "How does one eradicate these feelings? Buddhi or intellect alone has to play a part, by the> exercise of its inherent power of discrimination or viveka."> ***> Yes - the intellect alone is in the driver's seat - reference to the beautiful rathakalpana [chariot imagery] in the Katha Up - the intellect alone by its control over the mind(reins) and in turn horses(sense organs) determines the path for the jivA - towards shreyas or preyas.> > Hari OM> Shri Gurubhyoh namah> Shyam> > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, smnm1010 smnm1010 wrote:> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 " jIva who is really brahman identifies himself with the sense organs and the mind. " Namasthe, Does B.G verse 13/23 (upadraShTAnumantA.............paraH) say something similar? Regards Balagopal Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger./invite/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 praNAms Hare Krishna Yes, as Sri Sastri prabhuji kindly pointed out when brahman is hearing it is ears, when seeing it is eyes, when it is sentient it is prANa but in its svarUpa it is absolute nirvishesha...Hence mundaka shruti points out that brahman is : ' apraNOhyamanAH shubhraH' ....But shruti continues to declare from THIS only prANa, manaH & all senses would originate..(etasmAjjAyate prANaH manassarvendriyANi cha)...No need to mention this assertion made by shruti for those who have the *satyatva buddhi* in upAdhi-s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Mind can be completely subjugated only after nAdAnusandhAn: praNAms Sri Singh prabhuji Hare Krishna I respect your emphasization on nAdAnusaNdhAna...But for restricting the mind, *nAda* is not the ONLY means as you have been insisting in all your mails. krishna says in gIta through abhyAsa & vairAgya one can control the mind..(unfortunately he did not say here abhyAsa of nAda is the only means, to prove your point :-)). Hope you would agree with me, nAda is not a common dose of medicine for all the minds. As you might be aware, if nAdAnusaNdhAna being done only for material gains & fame, it only leads further and deeper to vicious circle of saMsAra :-)) Just a few thoughts from a non-nAdAnusandhAni :-)) Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Further to my original response to Mohan-ji in the ''AWARENESS', > 'CONSCIOUSNESS' AND 'UNDERSTANDING' IN THE CONTEXT OF VEDANTA' thread, I > would just like to add that Swami Paramarthananda does translate chitta as > 'consciousness', *not* 'memory' in Ch. 4 V. 54 of the kArikA, whereas Swamis > Chinmayananda and Nikhilananda, as well as Manilal Divviedi translates it as > 'mind'. In that context (whether matter comes out of chitta or vice versa), > it certainly seems that 'consciousness' is the correct translation. (Swami > Gambhirananda also uses 'consciousness.) > > > > Dennis > Hari Om Shri Dennisji, Pranaams! Reg. Karika 4th ch. verse 54. You will find in Swami Chinmayananda's commentary in word to word translation, the word chitta is given both meanings mind as well consciousness. Verses 53 and 54 together refute cause and effect theory. The apparant difference in translation between Sw. Gambheerananda with Sw. Nikhilananda and Sw. Chinmayananda is the interpretation of 'anyat anyasya caiva hi' pada in verse 53. Sw. Gambhiranandaji translated as ' one thing can be the cause of other' whereas the other two swamis translated as 'a non substance can be the cause of non substance'. Both are acceptable according to Shankara Bhashya. Ananda Giri's Tikka gives the interpretation that chitta here means Atman itself and hence with that basis Sw. Gambhiranandaji maintains the link between shlokas 53 & 54 by translating chitta as consciousness. Whereas to maintain the translation of 'anyat anyasya' the other translations say chitta is mind. Both are fine because finally Atman is proved as NOT Cause. In Shri Guru Smriti Br. Pranipata Chaitanya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 advaitin , " pranipatachaitanya " > --- In advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite@> wrote: > > > chitta as > > 'consciousness', *not* 'memory' in Ch. 4 V. 54 of the kArikA > > it certainly seems that 'consciousness' is the correct translation. > > > > Dennis > > > Hari Om Shri Dennisji, Pranaams! > > Reg. Karika 4th ch. verse 54. > > > Both are fine because finally Atman is proved as NOT Cause. > Hari Om Shri Dennisji, Pranaams! Just a reflection how both interpretations are giving the same final conclusion. alAtashAntiprakaraNam.h verses 53 & 54 dravyam dravyasya hetuH syAd anyad anyasya ca eva hi. Dravyatvam anyabhAvaH vA dharmANAM na upapadyate. 53. evaM na cittajA dharmAH cittam vA api na dharmajam. evaM hetuphalajAtiM pravishanti manIShiNaH.54. These two verses negate the cause effect theory. The first line of verse 53 can give four possible theories. 1. dravyam dravyasya hetuH – A substance can be a cause of substance. 2. dravyam anyasya hetuH – A substance can be a cause of a non- substance. 3. anyat dravyasya hetuH – A non-substance can be a cause of substance. 4. anyat anyasya hetuH – A non-substance can be a cause of non- substance. Instead of the meaning of non-substance as the meaning of anyat (dravyAt anyat) ; 3 & 4 can be clubbed as a thing can be cause of another thing different from itself by taking dravyAt anyat implies Self/Atman which is not a substance. Atman/Self is the thing(vastu) by interpreting `asti vai yat tat vastu'. The second line of first verse gives the reason why cause and effect theory cannot hold good – dharmANAm (jIvAnAm) 1. dravyatvam 2. anyabhAvaH – AtmanaH anyabhAvaH is not accepted. The first line of second verse summarises the two possibilities the reason stated will drive us to: 1. dharmAH na cittajA 2. cittam na dharmajam To connect the earlier verse with this verse where dharma has been interpreted in the first shloka as jIva and in the second as external objects, Anandagiriji says the dharma referring to jIva in the first shloka is the same of citta in the second shloka as ananyabhava with AtmA is already given as hetu. In line with this argument Swami Gambhirananda has translated citta as consciousness. Taking the other reason cited, jIva's adravyatvam the other two translators gave the meaning of ego-center/mind for the word citta. The conclusion of declared in the fourth line hetuphala-ajAti – incompatibility of cause effect is proved in all the four alternatives of first line. If the two verses are not connected the meaning of evam cannot be arrived in shloka 54. In Shri Guru Smriti Br. Pranipata Chaitanya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Dear Shri Chaitanya-ji, Many thanks for that information – very useful and interesting (I am in the slow process of studying the Ma. U and K for a new book on the subject – aimed at the ‘ordinary’ seeker rather than scholars.) I wonder if you know if it is possible to buy an English version of Ananda Giri’s Tikka? It does seem that it would be a valuable addition to my background study. Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of pranipatachaitanya Tuesday, January 06, 2009 1:48 PM advaitin Re: The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3 Hari Om Shri Dennisji, Pranaams! Reg. Karika 4th ch. verse 54. …. Ananda Giri's Tikka gives the interpretation that chitta here means Atman itself and hence with that basis Sw. Gambhiranandaji maintains the link between shlokas 53 & 54 by translating chitta as consciousness. Whereas to maintain the translation of 'anyat anyasya' the other translations say chitta is mind. Both are fine because finally Atman is proved as NOT Cause. In Shri Guru Smriti Br. Pranipata Chaitanya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Dear Sastri-ji, I have not stated that Consciousness undergoes any change nor it is implied so in that statement. Because of Its presence only the presence of every other things and actions are illumined. But, It is ever changeless. Mind is certainly a upadhi. However, I liked the crisp description of Pure Conciousness and the mind in that manner. Long time back I have returned the book to the owner and now I do not have access to it. Very rarely I take part in the discussion on these matters as it is extremely difficult to express the thoughts clearly, though it is clear in the mind. May be,I do not have the skill. But I do appreciate some of the writings on very subtle matters by some of the members in this group. Jai Guru. Regards, Natarajan advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote: > > advaitin , " P R Natarajan " ntrjnpr@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sastri-ji, > > > > I am sorry for stating from my vague rememberence that the nice > > explanation was seen in your web site. I shall be careful in > future. I > > recollect that it was from a Tamil book with commentaries on > Satasloki > > and not from your web page. I apologize for the mistake. That > > explanation was very good and I thought that I should share it > with the > > members. > > > > Jai Guru. > > > > With regards, > > > > Natarajan > > Dear Natarajan-ji, > I doubt whether what you call a nice statement is a correct > statement. Please check the Tamil work and see whether your > translation is correct. I used Shri Guruswamy Sastrigal's Tamil > translation for making my English translation which is on my > website. He would not have made such a statement. So please see the > Tamil translation again. What must have been said is that when pure > Consciousness has mind as upadhi it appears to undergo changes. > Consciousness by itself cannot undergo any change. > Regards, > S.N.Sastri > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 If anyone is interested, it is available as a (Sanskrit only) download/on-line read at http://www.archive.org/details/upanishadbhashya015936mbp. This is Volume 1 of the Shankara bhAShya-s by Sri S Subrahmanya Shastri, with commentaries of Anandagiri, published by the Mahesh Research Institute in 1979. Unfortunately, it does not seem that this has been translated. Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Pranipata Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:39 AM advaitin Re: Re: The mind, according to advaita Vedanta-3 Hari Om Shri Dennisji, Pranaams! I am unaware of any english translation of Anandagiri's tikka. Hope anyone having will share it in the forum. Thank you. In Shri Guru Smriti, Br. Pranipata Chaitanya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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