Guest guest Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Namaste Mounaji. Yours 43215. Your thoughts are interesting. However, I like to look at the whole thing from a different angle - rather the other way around. Supposing a sound is heard, we take it for granted that sound waves entered the ear, hit the ear drum, some neuronal activity took place whereby it reached the brain, some chemical changes occurred in the brain, and then sound-awareness took place. Ignorance consummate. I tend to take the opposite route. Pure Awareness first manifests as sound awareness (due to ignorance) and then the outward journey of objectification begins. Explanations are then needed. Sound becomes waves which need a medium (air) to travel. An organ of perception (ear) is called for, which need certain parts and a mechanism. Then it all ends with neuronal transmission and some chemical activity in the brain. This is exactly what happens in creation. Something that is beyond change seems to change and creation of hell of a lot of things takes place! Thus, we have upanishadic statements like vAcArambhaNam vikAro nAmadheyaM… etc., praNava, the primal sound, and the spanda theory of creation. To apply this to your example: Pure awareness manifests in us as software ideas, which then need the material of a floppy, CD or hard- drive for their sustenance first and then a PC/monitor for their expression. We then stand apart and watch the final show as an objectification not knowing that we are in it through and through. Ignorance consummate. Thus, when the senses and mind have come to permanent rest at their source (Pure Awareness), a jnAni is `born'. To look for chemical changes in *his brain* is therefore ignorance consummate. However, there is no denying that that might be an exalted scientific pursuit. Well, science too is nothing but ignorance. Best regards. Madathil Nair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Mouna <maunna wrote: Consciousness and the brain has been the focus of many studies in the recent past. ............. Thinking along these lines one start to ask the question as whether the mind determines the brain cells wiring or is the other way around, brain determining mind processes? Or... Is it possible that is both at the same time? ........... The recent discussion of Jnani's " perception " of the world after the dawn of Knowledge of the Self could be interestingly linked to these processes. ----------- Mounaji PraNAms You have raised some interesting questions which require a critical study of the brain before and after realization - the modification of the matter by knowledge. There is an experiment in the Ch. Up - the teacher asked his student to starve for 15 days but drink lot of water, as much as he wants. After 15 days student is asked to repeat the slokas that he knew very well - which he could not. The Teacher proves by this experiment that mind is subsisted by food- thus the connection of mind to the matter and praaNa or life to water are established - dehydration is more serious than not eating food. Thinking or mental exercises are harder to do than physical exercises -Any equipment not used over time becomes useless since nature minimizes energy expenditure in nourishing the equipment that is less useful. What is the effect of self-realization on the BMI - is the question you are posing. BUT Questions that are being addressed are – if these powers exist - whether these are byproducts of self-realization or the essentials of self-realization. Are these necessary aspects of self-realization or happens depending on the praarabda of the jiiva before his self-realization. Second aspect is, are these external modifications of BMI, if there are there, as essential byproducts or incidental byproducts - that is if one is jnaani - he will have this and this etc which ajnaani does not have. Or some jnaani show depending on the nature of the prarabda of the BMI – Raama did not show lot of powers like Krishna did since the BMI required for the tasks that they are born are different. Krishna's description of jnaani is very clear in Giita - in Shitaprajna lakshaNas. Most important aspect is - samatvam - equanimity in all his transactions - dukheshu anudvighna manaaH sukheshu vigata sphRihaH..who does not get depressed by the uncomfortable situations from the point of BMI not over elated by comforts; naabhi nandati na dveShTi .. neither over joys nor hates .. etc. Other than that no other specific aspects of physical, mental or intellectual powers have been specified. From this we conclude that those powers can come or many not come with knowledge - that is neither they are necessary or sufficient to recognize a jnaani. This means to address your questions – all external changes including changes in brain wave pattern do not have specificity to evaluate a jnaani from ajnaani? Quite and self-contended mind will have well defined brain wave patterns and consistent quietude reflecting less energy dissipation and making the mind more sharp and concentrat on any problem that it encounters. Hence the sankalpa or determined effort of a jnaani can be very powerful since he is tapping infinite energy available to him which he uses for laka kalyaanam only since he does not have any selfish desires - prajahaati yadaa kaamaan sarvaan mano gataan - all self-centered desires are washed out with knowledge. Hence He will be very efficient - yogaH karmasu kousalam - dexterity in action happens automatically - this we see even during saadhana time as one pulls away from all the energy-dissipating activities. There is lot of difference between efficiency and proficiency that Swami Chinmayanandaji talks about a lot in his texts. Just some thoughts Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 > There is an experiment in the Ch. Up - the teacher asked his student to starve > for 15 days but drink lot of water, as much as he wants. After 15 days student > is asked to repeat the slokas that he knew very well - which he could not. The > Teacher proves by this experiment that mind is subsisted by food- thus the > connection of mind to the matter and praaNa or life to water are established - > dehydration is more serious than not eating food. Dear and respected Sri Sadaji,Following your thoughts, a few more thoughts/questions.It is the memory of this passage in your wonderful last year's presentation of Chandogya Up. Chapter 6 that prompted me to reflect on these questions and made me think about all this, since it is the clear demonstration that the mind is material in nature, the only difference in relation to the gross body being levels of subtlety.If we take Maya/Prakriti as and from the whole with all its levels, it seems clear that all processes are so interconnected that one cannot establish cause and effect when it comes to Consciousness/Matter (or Matter/Consciousness) relationship (Science trying desperately to prove just one side of causality: brain -> mind).My reflection/question is that Jnani is the "embodiment" (to "our" eyes, functioning "from" the waking and relative state) of both courses of action. It is the window, at "our" level, that allows the light of Self to shine through and at the same time the mirror that makes us understand that that light is no other than our very Ultimate Nature (or Substratum). Or put it in another terms, the world of matter (Jnani's and/or Ajnani's brain) needs to be re-arranged (or "wired") in such a form as to create the harmonic resonance that will eventually dissolve the veil of vasanas. And one cannot "do" this, one can only "prepare" for this.It is another way to say that vasanas are embeded in the very core of our DNA strips, maybe going as far as to say that DNA IS the gross form of vasanas (maybe the the music that moves the multidimensional strings of String Theory are vasanas, the cornerstones of Maya! I wonder if any scientist will agree with this!!).With all my Pranams,Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Dear Mounaji, Yours 43221. You are right if you think that the thoughts you are thinking or the ideas that arise in 'your mind' are really 'yours'. We call it reflected consciousness here. No problem with that. The problem is with reading a meaning of 'my consciousness' into it. That is why we find it so very difficult to get rid of the BMI, to which we foolishly think we are unfortunately anchored. Thoughts and ideas are flashes on the screen that is you (Consciousness). The 'you' that has got hooked to a BMI identity has no control or say over them. If it thinks there is, which it does always, then that is another additional problem. Getting back and being fully 'the screen', i.e. ones original identity, is jnAna. To such a one who is fully that 'screen', to what avail is body, mind, brain and the neuronal/chemical activity going on in there? Best regards. Madathil Nair _______________ advaitin , " Mouna " <maunna wrote: > From another point of view (how many could there be??!), wouldn't you > agree that software ideas can only manifest through an implemented > hardware? They wouldn't even apear as software ideas without the concept > of hardware. > It will be the same as saying that first came the seed and then the > tree, but then, where did that seed come from? > The problem, from my point of view, cannot be traced to its origin, > because mythia. > Couldn't we say that mind is our interface with the Whole while brain > (even at the molecular level) is the localised hardware at the gross > level? and one cannot manifest without the other? > > ............... Again, chemical changes in Jnanis' brain are facts, not merely theories. > Science is coming to the conclusion that emotions have their counterpart > in hormones of different types, but hormones also can produce certain > emotions, ergo, which comes first?. Senses and mind coming to a > permanent rest has to have a counterpart in the body, otherwise just > intellectual jugglery. Wouldn't you agree? > Science is just one side of the equation, we can't take only the " other " > side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 hare krishna,namaskaramsassuming that we all have the computer ,the softwre and hardware what use it will be if we dont have the power to operate the same. also who programmed the software for application.the power is brahman and the software all designed by him in as may ways.may lord krishna bless us all with his grace. baskaran Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Namste MounajiSo then, how does a Jnani perceive the world? The answer maybe lies rephrasing the question: How are we perceiving "it" and "ourselves" in this very moment?After all, this maybe, eventually, the only matter that really counts.Finally you have said it !!Instead of "How are we perceiving" may be replaced with "How am I perceiving?" would be a statement of assimilation.Good luck!pranamsLakshmi Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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