Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Namaste, I was away for a month from my base, and i find that quite a number of discussions have taken place in our esteemed Group. Though I seldom participate in such discussions, as I have my own limitations, I do go through the posts. In a recent post Sri Bhaskarji has said " <<If jnAni is not identifying himself with a particular body...then who is saying jnAnis has the localized BMI & upahita chaitanya (bordered consciousness) ?? is it the assertion of jnAni or ajnAni?? kindly clarify.>> with regard to " identifying " or not, my very little understanding says, for a gnAni, any such identification or otherwise, is JUST FALSE and he never makes(?) any effort to identify or or unidentify with a particular body etc.. Pardon me for this intrusion. Warm regards, R. S. Mani --- On Fri, 30/1/09, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr > Re: Re: Enlightened Empirical Engagements!!! - School-1 > advaitin > Friday, 30 January, 2009, 5:59 PM > praNAms Sri Jaishankara prabhuji > > > Hare Krishna > > > I know, I owe you a reply (whether you like it or not :-)) > to your > previous post to me & my explanations for overlooking > your shankara quotes > in that..That I shall do in due course..Now to your latest > observation > below : > > > Sri J prabhuji : > > > The point under discussion is not whether a jnAni > identifies > himself/herself with a particular body. > > > bhaskar : > > > If jnAni is not identifying himself with a particular > body...then who is > saying jnAnis has the localized BMI & upahita chaitanya > (bordered > consciousness)?? is it the assertion of jnAni or ajnAni?? > kindly clarify. > > > Sri J prabhuji : > > > Everyone agrees that the jnAni cannot entertain any notion > about > himself/herself as a limited jiva with a Body-Mind-Sense > complex. But the > Body etc.. continues due to prarabdha karma and > > > bhaskar : > > > If it is true, then the theory of prArabhdha karma does not > suit the vigor > of jnAni..If jnAni does not entertain any notion about > himself / herself > there is no point in saying *he has* the prArabhdha karma > & hence > associates himself with the BMI complex.. > > > FYI, there are some interesting observations about > jnAni's prArabhdha karma > in an advaita prakaraNa granTha called *aparOkshAnubhuti* > Ofcourse, it is > in the name of Sri shankara BhagavadpAda...Kindly have a > look at it...The > Author also makes some unnatural observations about > praNAyAma (breathing > exercises) also. I am not saying this is an authorititive > source to refute > the theory of prArabhdha karma..but as a side note you can > refer it.. > > > Sri J prabhuji : > > > jnAni can function in this world as a Guru, father, > sannyasi etc. only > through the existing Body-mind-sense complex. Now the > discussion is about > whether the jnANi perceives his own BMI and the world or > not. Note that > perceiving something and functioning through something, is > different from > identifying with > something. > > > bhaskar : > > > this guru-shishya saMbandha (teacher-pupil relationship), > pramAtru-prameya > vyavahAra ( knower-known transactions), scriptural > teachings etc. etc. for > us not for the jnAni..No jnAni would say you are shishya, > you are ajnAni & > I am jnAni, take teaching from me..In Sutra bhAshya (1-1-4) > shankara says > All injunctions and all other means of knowledge can > function as such upto > the moment of realization that I am brahman..for after the > realization of > the non-dual Atman neither to be shunned nor to be > acquired, there can be > no means of knowledge whatever, since there would be no > object or cognizer > for them..( dont jump on me again by saying it is > paramArthA :-)) by > saying 'upto', 'after' cognition etc. > shankara definitely talking about the > post realization period of jnAni.. > > > Now to your particular observation that ' jnAni can > function like guru, > father, sannyAsi etc.' pUrva paxi in (2-1-14) raises an > objection that : if > absolute non-dualism to be taken literally there would be > no room for > diversity and perception and other empirical means of > knowledge would be > nullified since they would have then no object in the same > way as the idean > of a man etc. relating to a stump etc. And even the Sastra > teaching release > and the taught etc. on which alone its validity depends > ...For this > shankara gives an apt reply (CAPS or mine) : To this we > reply, no such > blame can be attached to our position..For all forms of > usage can very well > be real PREVIOUS TO THE REALIZATION of one's identity > with brahman, like > the PROCEDURE DURING DREAM BEFORE WAKING. So long as the > real oneness of > Atman is not realized, no one would think that the > modification, means of > knowledge, objects of knowledge and the resultant knowledge > are false > appearances. > > > What we would understand from the above bhAshya?? Does it > not say that > Atman is no agent of action and he is no more cognizer?? > Being secondless > by his very nature, agency and other properties (like guru, > father sannyAsi > etc.) seem to be real for the time being LIKE THE ILLUSORY > APPEARANCE in a > dream for the simple reason that WE THE IGNORANT ONES DONOT > KNOW OUR > SECONDLESS REAL NATURE?? > > > So, it is onceagain clear from shankara bhAshya that > jnAni-s vyavahAra, his > localized set of senses, his limited chaitanya etc. etc. > are the wrong > cognition of ajnAni who is yet to realize his real > nature... > > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > > > bhaskar Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! 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Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani wrote: > > with regard to " identifying " or not, my very little understanding says, for a gnAni, any such identification or otherwise, is JUST FALSE and he never makes(?) any effort to identify or or unidentify with a particular body etc.. Namaste, It would be hard to surpass a description of such a person, a jivanmukta, as that given in Gita Ch. 5, verses 7-30, and especially 19-20 : ihaiva tairjitaH sargo yeShaa.n saamye sthitaM manaH . nirdoShaM hi samaM brahma tasmaad.h brahmaNi te sthitaaH .. 5\-19.. na prahR^iShyetpriyaM praapya nodvijetpraapya chaapriyam.h . sthirabuddhirasammuuDho brahmavid.h brahmaNi sthitaH .. 5\-20.. 19. Here [i.e. even while living in the body.] itself is rebirth conquered by them whose minds are established on sameness. Since Brahman is the same (in all) and free from defects, therefore they are established in Brahman. 20. A knower of Brahman, who is established in Brahman, should have his intellect steady and should not be deluded. He should not get delighted by getting what is desirable, nor become dejected by getting what is undesirable. Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 > > Namaste Raj-ji, > Careless reading - tut tut. The paragraph no. is #120 and a note after > `feel' in `you will never again feel pain in waking or in dream.' (cf > above) refers us to an earlier #48 in which a similar statement had an > editorial note - (you will never again feel pain in the states of waking > and dream) As real and pertaining to the Self. > > The conception of a jnani as a sort of ghost is the result of over > literal and partial reading. > > Best Wishes, > Michael. > Michaelji, Both of us got it wrong. The paragraph no. is #110. Frankly, I am unable to get the import of your statement. I don't think anybody equated jnani to a ghost. The point of contention is whether jnani has a BMI or not. One group believes that jnani doesn't identify with the BMI, but perceive it. Jnani will continue to function through that BMI and experience duality until the fuel runs out. Other group categorically states that realization is an experiential transformation where known-instrument-knowledge triad is for ever sublated by the identification with all-pervading knowledge, which pervades waking, dream and deep-sleep states. I guess it is upto each one of us to strive to figure out what it is like to be a jnani, rather than fighting like blind-men trying to describe an elephant. Once again, Sankara categorically makes this statement at the end of first chapter of Upadesasahasri : " ... For when the knowledge that the one non-dual Self is beyond phenomenal existence is generated by the scriptures and reasoning, there cannot exist side by side with it a knowledge contrary to it. None can think of chillness in fire or immortality and freedom from old age in regard to the (perishable) body. One, therefore, who is eager to be established in the knowledge of the Reality should give up all actions with Yajnopavita and the rest, their accessories, which are the effects of ignorance " . Regards, Raj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 advaitin , " Sunder Hattangadi " <sunderh wrote: > > > 20. A knower of Brahman, who is established in Brahman, should have > his intellect steady and should not be deluded. He should not get > delighted by getting what is desirable, nor become dejected by > getting what is undesirable. > Hari OM! Thanks for sharing it. It can never be repeated too often. My question is HOW to get established? We see sometimes a single word breaking years of friendships, like small pickle piece breaking entire bowl of milk. And a rude look setting off chain of events leading to dejection or anger. Closer the person who caused it, greater the intensity. On extreme end, just an ignoring look of parent can make a toddler even cry! Not much difference for grown ups. This is a very real, practical problem. It is not rare to see at homes or offices, in sports or shops, in temples or roads- patience of a three-year old, attention span of a housefly and judgement of herd of sheep. How do we get established in Brahman with steady intellect? More than ever, this seems greatest and most urgent need for majority of us to be established in Brahman. Any inputs will be appreciated. ============================= Thanks and Hari OM! -Srinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Namaste Sri srinivasji, You have stated: †My question is HOW to get established?†to what Sri Sunderji has said: <<A knower of Brahman, who is established in Brahman, should have his intellect steady and should not be deluded. He should not get delighted by getting what is desirable, nor become dejected by getting what is undesirable.>> As the Lord says “Abhyasena†i.e. by practice, which involves continuous “sravana and manana†till the “establishment†takes place. Our esteemed Group is an excellent platform for this. Warm regards, R.S.Mani R.. S. Mani--- _,_.._,___ Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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