Does a jnani have a mind or not?

[Guest guest]

 

In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramama", Suri Nagamma relates the following reply from Bhagavan Ramana to someone who asked "Do the Jnanis have a mind or not?"

 

Sri Ramana replies:

 

"There is no question of one realising Brahman without a mind; realisation is possible only if there is a mind; mind always functions with some upadhi (support); there is no mind without upadhi: it is only in connection with the upadhi that we can say one is a jnani. Without the upadhi, how can one say that someone is a jnani? But how does the upadhi function without mind? It does not; that it why it is said that the jnani's mind itself is Brahman. The jnani is always looking at Brahman. How is it possible to see without a mind? That is why it is said that the jnani's mind is Brahmakara and akandakara. But in reality his mind itself is Brahman. Just as an ignorant man does not recognise Brahman but only recognises the external vrittis (things), so also though the jnani's body moves about in the external vrittis, he always recognises only Brahman within. That Brahman is all-pervading; when once the mind is lost in Brahman to call the mind Brahmakara is like saying that a river is like an ocean; when once all the rivers get lost in the ocean, it is all one vast sheet of water; can you then distinguish in that vast sheet of water, 'This is Ganges, this is the Goutami, this river is so long, that river is so wide', and so on? It is the same with regard to the mind also.

 

". . . Sat is what exists; Sat is sarvam; it is the natural thing; it is the subtle movement of the mind.By its contacts with rajas and tamas it creates the world with its innumerable forms. It is only its contact with rajas and tamas that the mind looks at the world which is abhasa and gets deluded. If you remove that contact, satva shines pure and uncontaminated. That is called pure Satva or Sudhasatva; this contact cannot be eliminated unless you enquire with the subtlest of the subtle mind and reject it. All the vasanas have to be subdued and the mind has to become very subtle; that means, subtle among the subtlest - they say anoraneeyam (atom within an atom); it should become atomic to the atom. If it becomes subdued as an atom to the atom, then it rises to the infinite among infinities, 'mahato maheeyam'; call it the mind seeing, or the mind acquiring powers; call it whatever you like; by whatever name it is called, we sleep; the mind, with all its activities lies subdued in the heart; what do we see then? Nothing. Why? Because the mind lies subdued; we wake up from our sleep; as soon as we wake up there is mind, there is Sat and Brahman; as soon as the mind that is awake is attached to the gunas, every activity emerges; if you discard those guna vikaras (vagaries of the mind), the Brahman appears everywhere, self luminous and self evident, the Aham, 'I'. Then everything appears thanmayam (all pervading). See the technical language of the Vedanta: they say, Brahma-vid, (Brahman-knowing), Brahma Vidvarishta (supreme among Brahman-knowing) and so on, and they say, Brahmaiva Bhavati (he becomes Brahman itself). He is Brahman itself. That is why we say that the jnani's mind itself is Brahman."

 

Some else asked, "They say that the jnani conducts himself with absolute equality towards all?

 

Bhagavan replied "Yes! How does a jnani conduct himself?" [then quotes the following in Sanskrit...]

 

"Maitri (friendship), karuna (kindness), muditha (happiness) and upeksha (indifference) and such other bhavas become natural to them. Affection towards the good, kindness towards the helpless, happiness in doing good deeds, forgiveness towards the wicked, all such things are natural characteristics of the jnani."

 

(Letters from Sri Ramanasraman, letter 90)

-------------

 

(Note: The source of the above quote "Maitri, karuna, muditha...[etc]" is given in the book as Patanajali Yoga Sutra, 1.:37. which seems incorrect. It seems more related to Vivekachudamani 1:37/38. Perhaps someone else know the exact source.)

 

Regards,

 

Peter

[Guest guest]

--- On Sat, 2/14/09, Peter <not_2 wrote:

 

Beautiful peter - I was just going over the first sloka of Bhagavaan in Sat

Darshanam which is very contemplative invocation sloka that describes the

Brahman as sat - chit - ananda - and contemplation is just Be where one

transcends all the objective plurality to see the reality underlying it - No way

to describe - and jaani is one who is established in that state of

understanding.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Peter " <not_2 wrote:

>

>

> > (Note: The source of the above quote " Maitri, karuna, muditha...

[etc] " is

> given in the book as Patanajali Yoga Sutra, 1.:37. which seems

incorrect.

> It seems more related to Vivekachudamani 1:37/38. Perhaps someone

else know

> the exact source.)

 

Namaste,

 

The source is correct (Patanjali Yoga Sutra); only the number

should be 1:33.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

 

This discussion about the Jnani, the " mind " of the Jnani and our

mind " thinking " about the Jnani's mind, at some point

it's not only interesting but funny. I wonder what someone like

Bhagavan Ramana would have said if discussions of this kind would have

happened in the Halll where he was staying. Well, actually, I kind of

guess what he would have said, it's mostly what he wouldn't have

said!

 

One of the features of this discussion reminds me the arguments and

counterarguments that different scientific schools of science share to

arrive to some conclusions regarding consciousness and the brain and

their interelationship.

It's clear that most of the scientific world (not all, fortunately

in recent times) ascribed or ascribes consciousness as a function of the

brain. But as many times was suggested even in this forum, science had

and has the " tendency " to leave out the " one " who is

observing the brain and its functions.

And that makes the whole difference!

 

Discussions about the Mind of the Jnani comes under the same scope.

First of all we need to convey of which term we are discussing, of which

mind are we talking about: notional mind? perceptual mind? emotional

mind? Are we thinking about the " inner organ, when we think in

english the term mind? or the buddhi?

We can provide many quotes also from Bhagavan describing how to

" kill the mind " or " the mind dies " , etc..

And eventually, him saying that all this explanations are just for the

onlooker, the ignorant, for the unprepared (a little bit like in Vedanta

Adhyaropa Apavada).

 

What does it prove all this?

How to understand all these " apparent " contradictions when

Jnanis come to describe their " own " functioning?

It's very simple, we are leaving the " observer " out, we are

leaving " us " or " I " out of the equation.

We are falling pray to the externallization of " our " own mind.

We take ourselves to be the waker and see the Jnani as a " separate

object " . It is a little bit like trying to explain what could be

happening in the mind of someone having an LSD experience. I don't

know if many members here in this forum have had that

" experience " , but is definitely something that someone who

didn't, will never guess, even if we described it in minutious

details.

 

When it comes to the words of a Jnani, is it Turiya speaking or a body?

Turiya doesn't speak and a body being insentient either!! So, Where does

the question arises from?

But most important, who is doing the listening?

Bhagavan the Maharshi incessantly " mirrored " the question back

to the questioner.

" Leave the Jnani alone!, wait to be one to speak about it! "

(paraphrasing)

What He was trying to convey behind these words is that these kind of

questions takes us away from what we are really " looking for " ,

supposing we are looking for " something " and not merely passing

time in intellectual pursuits.

There's nothing wrong in that either, but in that case, well...

That's another " trip " altogether.

 

Yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna

 

***********

Not many Jnanis,

Not one Jnani,

Only Jnana

************

[Guest guest]

--- On Sat, 2/14/09, Mouna <maunna wrote:

 

PraNAms to all.

 

Ultimately question boils down to do is whether I have mind or not - since I

cannot know or say whether a jnaani has a mind or not. The purpose of the

previous discussion is only do not to take the absence of the mind as as a

litmus test to know you are jnaani or not. Only litmus test the scriptuer

provides is - given in Cj. Up 6th ch. - that is if are getting burned in contact

with the world - then you are yet to realize the truth. If you have the

equanimity of the mind that does not get affected by the contact with the world

then you are realized.

 

Mind and every 'thing' else that has vikaara or modifications are part of

Kshetam only as 13ch that we are discussing or have been discussing says. we

know mind undergoes vikaara or change since we keep changing our minds all the

time!

 

Do I have a mind? - If I am conscious of the mind then mind that I am conscious

of.. is not I but a thing that belongs to kshetram.

 

Since I am the knower of the mind since I am conscious of the mind.

 

But Krishna say - kshetrajnam ca api maam viddhi sarva kshetreshu bhaarata -

Know me that I am the knower of the all minds which are fields of experiences.

 

Since I am the knower of my mind while Krishna says he is the knower all minds

too - then 'I am' as to be understood correctly- Hence the sloka

 

UpadraShTaanumantaaca comes to complete the equation.

 

Back to 13th Ch.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda