What is common in adwaita and SAktaadwaita?

[Guest guest]

From :-  krishnarao    

Subject :-  What is common in adwaita and SAktaadwaita?

 

                                    SrIguruh sarvakAraNaBhUtASaktih |

                                     SrImahAgaNAdhipatayEnamah ||

pUjya SrIyutAh sadAji Evam SAstrIji,

                        SAdar namaskArs.  I am extremely pleased to go through the three messages.  I am very very small before you in the subject.  To go into any argument with stalwarts like you will become audacity like a ram striking its head with a mountain rock.  However, I wish to present some of my views just as a kid answering the questions of an examiner.  Please excuse me if any faults slip out due to my ignorance and false notions.

 

                        In my opinion, SAktaadwaita is not any cult but the way of sanAtana BhAratIya life itself.  It is not any newly accepted method of devotion.  It has been observed long since the manifestation of the vEda.  Because it is gupta vidya, it has been kept confidential by the sampradAyic pAramparic guru paramparas only, so as not to be misused by unauthorized miscreants.  Theory can be exposed but the practical methods should not be so easily made available for every tom dick and harry.  Isn`t it?  Please look in to the gayatrI upasthana mantra,  “uttamE SiKarE jAtEBhumyAm parvata mUrdhani| brAhmaNEBhyO~Bhyanuj~nAtA gacCa dEvi yAthA suKam ||”  We are asking the dEvi who is now seated on the mount of mEru, (in the sahasrAraantargata cintAmaNi gR^iha BhUmika) to come down on the permission of brahmavidas and go to her own place.  When did she ascended the mountain and how?  It is evident that the practical part was intentionally omitted.  Why because It is all to be learnt from the guru parampara only after undergoing so many tests by the SrIguru.

 

                        The adwaita says you must realize that you are the Brahman and you must get the adwaitic experience  But how can it be possible?  In SAkta adwaita there are so many nyAsas to make the person unknowingly experience that virAt avastha. 

 

               I said there is no scope for Bhakti in suddha adwaita, because when one realizes that he himself is the supreme of all the gods, and there is none else other than him (adwitIyah), where should he bow his head to express his Bhakti?  Is it possible to attain that state of consciousness, all of a sudden after reading a few theoretical books?  It would be just like becoming a muscleman only by reading some physical exercise books.

 

                       SAktaadwaita, in my opinion, is not worshipping feminine gods at all.  God will neither be masculine, nor feminine nor any neutral.  The masculinity will remain only in the stages of ‘asti’, and ‘BHaAti’.  In ‘priya’ avastha, it becomes “artha nArISwara” (half man and half woman).  By the attribution of ’nAma’ and ‘’rUpa’, “yah SivO nAma rUpABhyAm yA dEvI sarvamangaLA”.  The ‘sir’ becomes the ‘madam’ only.  The so called male gods with a name and a form, all should be considered feminine only.

“twayA hR^itwA vAmam vapor aparitR^iptEna manasA

 SarIrArtham SamBhOr aparamapi SankE hR^itamaBhUt ||”

 

                       About pancAyatana pUjA, I say, they are all vyaShti rUpAs of the samaShti.

Just as you don`t find anything as “forest”, except a number of trees only, the dEvI is not there anywhere except as “sarva dEvatA samaShTi rUpiNi”.  Almost all the dEvatas mentioned in  different “sahasra nAmas” are all certainly different from dEvi and the non existing dEvi is the ”samaShTi” of all of them. 

 

              I very strongly believe that “that sarva dEvatA swarUpam” is none else but my own “self”. All of the dEvatAs are simply the extensions of my own self as many of my limbs of my physical body.  Please excuse me sirs, if I have exceeded any limits.

 

.. Yours always in the service of the mother

 krishnarao (SrIparasuKAnandanAtha)       

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Krishnaraoji,

My replies are given below:

 

Krishnarao-- In my opinion, SAktaadwaita is not any cult but the way of

sanAtana BhAratIya life itself. It is not any newly accepted method of

devotion. It has been observed long since the manifestation of the vEda.

Because it is gupta vidya, it has been kept confidential by the sampradAyic

pAramparic guru paramparas only, so as not to be misused by unauthorized

miscreants. Theory can be exposed but the practical methods should not be so

easily made available for every tom dick and harry. Isn`t it? Please look in

to the gayatrI upasthana mantra, " uttamE SiKarE jAtEBhumyAm parvata mUrdhani|

brAhmaNEBhyO~Bhyanuj~nAtA gacCa dEvi yAthA suKam || " We are asking the dEvi who

is now seated on the mount of mEru, (in the sahasrAraantargata cintAmaNi gR^iha

BhUmika) to come down on the permission of brahmavidas and go to her own place.

When did she ascended the mountain and how? It is evident that the practical

part was intentionally omitted. Why because It is all to be learnt from the

guru parampara only after undergoing so many tests by the SrIguru.

 

SNS--I did not at all denigrate shAkta as a cult or as some newly created from

of devotion. You must have seen from my first post in this thread that I am

myself a Srividya worshipper. I have stated that I perform nava AvaraNa pUja,

which is worship of Tripurasundari in a Srichakra. This is shakti worship. This

being so, how can I ever denigrate shAkta? As I have said, the Gayatri mantra

itself is shakti worship. We first invoke Gayatri Devi with the mantra " AyAtu

varadA devi--- " . After the Gayatri japa is over, visarjanam has to be done. That

is what is done by the mantra " uttame shikhare devi--- " .

 

Krishnarao-- The adwaita says you must realize that you are the Brahman and

you must get the adwaitic experience But how can it be possible? In SAkta

adwaita there are so many nyAsas to make the person unknowingly experience that

virAt avastha.

 

SNS-- I do not dispute that shakti worship is one of the modes of worship. What

I said is that it is not the only mode. One may worship the supreme brahman in

various forms such as shiva, viShNu, Rama, Krishna, Ganapati, etc. In fact one

need not even be a Hindu to attain the advaitic experience. When westerners used

to ask Kanchi paramacharya whether they should convert to Hinduism, he would

tell them that they could remain in their own religion and practise advaita. Sri

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa proved that one could get the advaitic experience

through Christianity and Islam also. There is a book by Aldous Huxley entitled

" The Perennial Philosophy " in which he has shown that Christian saints and

Muslim Sufis attained the same advaitic experience as the Indian Rishis. This

being so, it would be too narrow a view to say that shakti worship is the only

means to advaitic realization. In our religion there are so many modes of

worship laid down. Krishna says in the Gita that he can be attained by whichever

mode of worship a devotee chooses. That is why we have the concept of iShTa

devata.

The upanishads do not merely say that you are beahman. They also lay down the

means by which this realization can be attained. First there is the

sAdhanacatuShTayam. Then br. up. 4.4.22 says— " The brAhmaNas seek to know It

through the study of the vedas, sacrifices, charity and austerity---- " . It is

this that is elaborated in the Gita as karma yoga and bhakti yoga.

 

Krishnarao-- I said there is no scope for Bhakti in suddha adwaita, because

when one realizes that he himself is the supreme of all the gods, and there is

none else other than him (adwitIyah), where should he bow his head to express

his Bhakti? Is it possible to attain that state of consciousness, all of a

sudden after reading a few theoretical books? It would be just like becoming a

muscleman only by reading some physical exercise books.

 

SNS--As you yourself have said, only when one has realized that he himself is

the supreme Being, there is no God to whom he can bow his head.

But we are talking about the stage before this realization. At this stage the

world and Ishvara are real for him, though they have only empirical reality. In

this stage worship of God is possible and it is necessary. Nobody says that it

is possible to realize the Self by reading a few books. That is why the paths of

karma, bhakti and jnAna have been laid down in advaitc works themselves.

 

Krishnarao-- SAktaadwaita, in my opinion, is not worshipping feminine gods at

all. God will neither be masculine, nor feminine nor any neutral. The

masculinity will remain only in the stages of `asti', and `BHaAti'. In `priya'

avastha, it becomes " artha nArISwara " (half man and half woman). By the

attribution of 'nAma' and `'rUpa', " yah SivO nAma rUpABhyAm yA dEvI

sarvamangaLA " . The `sir' becomes the `madam' only. The so called male gods

with a name and a form, all should be considered feminine only.

 

SNS—Did any one say that there are masculine and feminine gods or that shAkta is

worshipping female gods? All the gods, male and female, are forms of brahman.

Each one worships the form he or she likes.

 

Krishnarao- About pancAyatana pUjA, I say, they are all vyaShti rUpAs of the

samaShti.

Just as you don`t find anything as " forest " , except a number of trees only, the

dEvI is not there anywhere except as " sarva dEvatA samaShTi rUpiNi " . Almost all

the dEvatas mentioned in different " sahasra nAmas " are all certainly different

from dEvi and the non existing dEvi is the " samaShTi " of all of them.

 

SNS--This is some thing strange. The Lalita sahasranama gives the different

names attributed to Tripurasundari. I do not know how they are different from

the Devi. All these are forms of the one brahman.

 

Krishnarao-- I very strongly believe that " that sarva dEvatA swarUpam " is none

else but my own " self " . All of the dEvatAs are simply the extensions of my own

self as many of my limbs of my physical body. Please excuse me sirs, if I have

exceeded any limits.

 

SNS-- There is nothing but the Self or brahman from the absolute standpoint.

Nobody disputes this. This is the teaching of advaita. But brahman has no limbs.

It is homogeneous. So all the devatas are brahman itself and not extensions of

brahman. Extension would mean that there are things other than brahman. These

are all various names given to the one brahman.

Regards,

S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Krishnarao-ji.

 

Kindly permit me to say a couple of things.

 

I am in full agreement with your statement (1) quoted below. The only problem

is that Advaitins might not like the word 'experience' because most of them

can't appreciate the 'esotericity' a Shakta attches to it.

 

About your statement # 2 : I have been taught that jnAna and bhakti are just

the two sides of the same coin. In other words, jnAna is not any different from

bhakti. In Advaita, bhakti is not 'bowing one's head'. It is knowing that

everything is one oneself and, therefore, being in spontaneous love. There is

no bhakti without jnAna and no jnAna devoid of bhakti.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

___________________

 

advaitin , krishnarao lanka <lanka.krishnarao1 wrote:

 

(1)

 

> The adwaita says you must realize that you are the

> Brahman and you must get the adwaitic experience But how can it be

> possible? In SAkta adwaita there are so many nyAsas to make the person

> unknowingly experience that virAt avastha.

_______________>

 

 

(2)

>

> * * I said there is no scope for Bhakti in suddha adwaita,

> because when one realizes that he himself is the supreme of all the gods,

> and there is none else other than him (adwitIyah), where should he bow his

> head to express his Bhakti?

[Guest guest]

Dear Nairji and all ,

 

Personally I see nothing wrong in bowing our head ..It is said that

Madhusuda Saraswatii after finishing the great work "Adwaita Siddhi" wrote in conclusion, having said all these and that, I still bow down to that blue cowherd boy ShyamSundara who is ParamBrahman.

 

Pranams

 

ramesh

--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:

Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair Re: What is common in adwaita and SAktaadwaita?advaitin Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 10:46 AM

 

 

Namaste Shri Krishnarao-ji.Kindly permit me to say a couple of things.I am in full agreement with your statement (1) quoted below. The only problem is that Advaitins might not like the word 'experience' because most of them can't appreciate the 'esotericity' a Shakta attches to it.About your statement # 2 : I have been taught that jnAna and bhakti are just the two sides of the same coin. In other words, jnAna is not any different from bhakti. In Advaita, bhakti is not 'bowing one's head'. It is knowing that everything is one oneself and, therefore, being in spontaneous love. There is no bhakti without jnAna and no jnAna devoid of bhakti.Best regards.Madathil Nair____________ _______advaitin@ s.com, krishnarao lanka

<lanka.krishnarao1@ ...> wrote:(1)> The adwaita says you must realize that you are the> Brahman and you must get the adwaitic experience But how can it be> possible? In SAkta adwaita there are so many nyAsas to make the person> unknowingly experience that virAt avastha.____________ ___> (2) > > * * I said there is no scope for Bhakti in suddha adwaita,> because when one realizes that he himself is the supreme of all the gods,> and there is none else other than him (adwitIyah), where should he bow his> head to express his Bhakti?

[Guest guest]

Rameshji, I am sure you knew I only meant the ordinary physical act of bowing

one's head in a superior presence. My remarks was ony contextual. I am sure

Advaita bhakti can make one not only bow one's head but also prostrate and roll

on the ground in pure ecstasy. The head of an advaitin is always down in utter

humility.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

_____________

 

advaitin , ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv wrote:

>  

> Personally I see nothing wrong in bowing our head ..It is said that

> Madhusuda  Saraswatii  after finishing the great work " Adwaita Siddhi "   wrote

in conclusion, having said all these and that, I still bow down to that blue

cowherd boy ShyamSundara who is ParamBrahman.

________________

>

> --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:

 

>

....I have been taught that jnAna and bhakti are just the two sides of the same

coin. In other words, jnAna is not any different from bhakti. In Advaita, bhakti

is not 'bowing one's head'. It is knowing that everything is one oneself and,

therefore, being in spontaneous love. There is no bhakti without jnAna and no

jnAna devoid of bhakti.

> ____________ _______

>

> advaitin@ s.com, krishnarao lanka <lanka.krishnarao1@ ...>

wrote:

 

> > * * I said there is no scope for Bhakti in suddha adwaita,

> > because when one realizes that he himself is the supreme of all the gods,

> > and there is none else other than him (adwitIyah), where should he bow his

> > head to express his Bhakti?

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Nairji ,

 

Absolutely .. I apologise for having misunderstood.. Regarding humility there is a

nice saying from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu -

 

"Be more humble than a blade of grass, more tolerant than a tree, always offering respect onto others and never expecting any in return"

 

Pranams

ramesh

 

--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:

Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair Re: What is common in adwaita and SAktaadwaita?advaitin Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 1:10 PM

 

 

Rameshji, I am sure you knew I only meant the ordinary physical act of bowing one's head in a superior presence. My remarks was ony contextual. I am sure Advaita bhakti can make one not only bow one's head but also prostrate and roll on the ground in pure ecstasy. The head of an advaitin is always down in utter humility.Pranams.Madathil Nair____________ _advaitin@ s.com, ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv@ ...> wrote:> > Personally I see nothing wrong in bowing our head ..It is said that > Madhusuda Saraswatii after finishing the great work "Adwaita Siddhi" wrote in conclusion, having said all these and that, I still bow down to that blue cowherd boy ShyamSundara who is ParamBrahman.____________

____> > --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair@ ...> wrote:> ...I have been taught that jnAna and bhakti are just the two sides of the same coin. In other words, jnAna is not any different from bhakti. In Advaita, bhakti is not 'bowing one's head'. It is knowing that everything is one oneself and, therefore, being in spontaneous love. There is no bhakti without jnAna and no jnAna devoid of bhakti.> ____________ _______> > advaitin@ s.com, krishnarao lanka <lanka.krishnarao1@ ...> wrote:> > * * I said there is no scope for Bhakti in suddha adwaita,> > because when one realizes that he himself is the supreme of all the gods,> > and there is none else other than him (adwitIyah), where should he bow his> > head to express his Bhakti?>