Guest guest Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Hi Dennis, Yes, you would think it is the same mind in both states. The antah-karana is part of the suble body hence common to both states of 'waking' and 'sleeping'. The dream state is minus the input from the physical senses and invlolves the identification of ahankara ('I-thought') with the dreamer ego. The organs of perception (jnanendriyas) are also part of the suble body which is perhaps why the term 'perception' is used in reference to the dream state rather than 'imagination'. Best wishes, Peter advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Dennis Waite28 March 2009 16:11advaitin Subject: RE: Re: An apparent contradiction in Shankara's comments Dear Nair-ji, That is a very interesting point. But it does have to be the same mind, otherwise the advaitin explanation of dream – namely that it is events, desires etc in the waking world that are manifest in the dream – would make no sense. The memory-vAsanA-s have to be available for this to work. I don’t know that anyone (scholars-scriptures etc) says that the waking mind differs from the dreaming mind do they? This is not the same as differentiating the waker-ego and dream-ego (i.e. ‘waker’ and ‘dreamer’). We differentiate gross waking objects from ‘gross’ dream objects but is there anywhere that a distinction is made between subtle dream thoughts and waking thoughts? In fact, the assumed ‘gross’ dream objects turn out to be subtle, mind projected ‘objects’. No one ever suggests that the mind that is projecting these is itself not real in a vyAvahArika sense. (If it were not, then where would it come from? Projected from another mind? But then where would that mind come from? And so on…) Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Madathil Rajendran NairSaturday, March 28, 2009 12:52 PMadvaitin Subject: Re: An apparent contradiction in Shankara's comments By the explanation now proffered, the same mind is implied to exist in both the dream and waking states. This would mean that it is the waker who entered the dream state quite contrary to the non-inter-dependence (insularity) of the states held sacrosanct by some of our scholars.Besides, it sounds like mind exists, outside and inside, independent of the two worlds perceived, which means it is rather other worldly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: " > > Even the deep sleep state is a continuous thought of nothingness but a > > thought all the same. " > > > > Dear Sri Tony OClery, > > Your above quoted statement is not in tune with the thought position > > of the Upanishads and your statement goes against anuBava also. I > > request you to study mantras 4-3-21, 4-3-22 to > > 4-3-32 and also mantras 5 and 6 0f Mandukya Upanishad . A study of the > > mantras will help you to evaluate the correctness of your statement. > > > > with warm and respectful regards, > > Sreenivasa Murthy. Namaste,SM, Yes I am familiar with the mandukya of course; However if deep sleep is not of the mind or thought it would result in liberation but it doesn't..........Sushupti is a state of ignorance, the veil to be sundered before realisation......... --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 > > Swami Paramarthanda- ji’s analysis of BSB II.ii.28 - 29, wherein he gives the same explanation! > .... > In the BSB sutra, the yogachAra philosopher is attempting to argue that the waking world (jAgrat prapa~ncha) and the dream world (svapna prapa~ncha) are the same because both are inside the mind. Shankara argues that this is not the case; that the waking world is very much outside the mind. > ---------- > Dennis - PraNAms > > The second chapter of Brahma suutra is centered on dismissing the aastika philosophies and should be correctly understood with that reference in mind. > > I think, it is one of the reasons why it is simpler to understand Shankara's interpretations (without any apparent contradictions)through the prakaraNa granthaas. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda Namaste Dennis and Sadananda, We have semantics here methinks....The world may appear to be outside the individual illusion of mind, but this total illusion is nothing but mind. In that way the waking, dream and deep sleep states are the same thing to a different degree. For example which plane is this on? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7967575.stm It is the waking looking at a dream bardo.......I think one has to not take things out of context with Sankara and Ramana because they reflect the immediate audience in many cases......... --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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