Mukti 1

[Guest guest]

Namaste to all,

 

 

Can I please ask two questions about Shankara's view of mukti:

 

1) Shankara of course says that jivanmukti is possible, but is there any

alternative ie is there such a thing as realisation of liberation without a

living mind which comprehends the truth? Or is the point of jivanmukti is that

of course a body-mind is required to realise liberation but the fullness of

liberation is immediate and does not require the body-mind to die before

reaching completion?

 

thank you

 

Ju

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " ju_r1 " <ju_r1 wrote:

> Can I please ask two questions about Shankara's view of mukti:

 

Namaste,

 

If you do not mind me asking so, may I ask if these questions are for any

course? The group members would be interested in knowing. If these are not,

then you are most welcome to ask these questions and they would be willing

to help you (as they had before). If they are, then I hope you are aware of

rules regarding using of newsgroups for classroom-questions. The professor

(himself/herself) may be lurking in the newsgroup, albeit with a false ID.

 

Again, I apologize for asking such question, but I participate in some Math

and CS-Theory newsgroups, and over there it is pretty easy to figure out a

pattern in questions, and I am afraid that your questions (past and current)

remind me of such questions.

 

praNAms,

Ramakrishna

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Yes I am studying Vedanta at university but I am also personally interested in

Vedanta and would be asking the same questions without any course, sooner or

later. I am not aware of the newsgroup rules but I didn't think there was

anything wrong in asking short questions. None of my questions have been set by

my professor, so it is not that I am being lazy by asking questions here. Rather

they are questions that have occurred to me during my reading.

 

Ju

 

 

advaitin , " Ramakrishna Upadrasta " <uramakrishna

wrote:

>

> advaitin , " ju_r1 " <ju_r1@> wrote:

> > Can I please ask two questions about Shankara's view of mukti:

>

> Namaste,

>

> If you do not mind me asking so, may I ask if these questions are for any

> course? The group members would be interested in knowing. If these are not,

> then you are most welcome to ask these questions and they would be willing

> to help you (as they had before). If they are, then I hope you are aware of

> rules regarding using of newsgroups for classroom-questions. The professor

> (himself/herself) may be lurking in the newsgroup, albeit with a false ID.

>

> Again, I apologize for asking such question, but I participate in some Math

> and CS-Theory newsgroups, and over there it is pretty easy to figure out a

> pattern in questions, and I am afraid that your questions (past and current)

> remind me of such questions.

>

> praNAms,

> Ramakrishna

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Ju-ji,

 

I sincerly apologize for questioning the intent.

 

Here are my answers to the questions. I think members more learned than me

would correct any mistakes.

 

The BSB reference that you gave seems to talk about the krama-mukti,

which is obtained by one has lived a life of dharma, following all the

rituals properly and at the end of it, leave forever (na-nivartante).

 

In this type of mukti, the liberated beings go to Brahma-loka, and get

instructed by the four faced hiraNyagarbha (also called as Brahma-ji) and

merge into the eternity at the end of the kalpa (perhaps at the end of His

lifetime). You can find explanation for this in Madhusudana Saraswathi's

Bhashya of the Gita, verse 8.16.

 

Though this seems simple (in theory only (!!!), as such a life purely

practised turns out to be extremely difficult in practise), we have to

remember that it is only when the accumulated karmas have been extinguished,

that such a non-returning exit is possible.

 

Otherwise, they return back, because of presence of the non-extinguished

saMcita-karma, as Lord Krishna says in verse 9.20-21 (kshiiNe puNye

martyalokaM vishanti).

 

This issue (of krama-mukti) was a big issue when the arguments were between

Vedantins and mImAMsakAs, the followers of the school of thought who

believe that Vedas talk only about karma and the later part (Upanishads) are

arthavAda.

 

Proponents of this mukti mainly intend to use the body as a vehicle to

attain mukti. These variety of people come as opponents in Shankara's

arguments, as people who think that " this body is mine. I will use it to

attain liberation " .

 

The second way is the krama-mukti, when the individual gets liberated after

the death. This type of mukti is present in dvaitin schools of Vedanta (and

perhaps some western religions too).

 

The third concept is the jIvanmukti, which has not been conceptualized

anywhere in the philosophical schools outside sanAtana-dharma (perhaps

outside Advaita too!) The one who obtains jIvanmukti is the seer, who has

truly realized the Unity of the Self everywhere.

 

Some opponents propogate that the theory of jIvanmukti has mainly been

propogated by later Advaitins, but they fail to realize that the thoughts

are sprinkled all over the literature, beginning from purusha-sukta

(amR^ita-iha-bhavati) itself. Note that jIvanmukti subsumes kramamukti.

These two are only one in " Human plane " , while the third one is in " other

worlds " .

 

It was Shankara who showed that the karma can never be exhausted, except by

(and only by) GYAna. This GYAna, which makes one realize that He is akarta

(non-doer) and abhoka (non-enjoyer) and realize His Infinity here and Now.

 

praNAms to all Advaitins,

Ramakrishna

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

advaitin , " ju_r1 " <ju_r1 wrote:

>

> 1) Shankara of course says that jivanmukti is possible, but is there

> any alternative ie is there such a thing as realisation of liberation

> without a living mind which comprehends the truth? Or is the point of

 

If I understand this question correctly, you are asking if dead-beings

(which do not have a living mind) or non-living beings like trees (which do

not have a mind) or animals (whose mind is " tuned " for their operation, with

no free-will) are eligible for mukti?

 

The answer to " dead " has already been covered under the subject of

krama-mukti and videha-mukti. I do not think that living beings without

free-will are eligible for mukti, as it inherently has to do with

dissociation of the will from the non-free entities. And Indian systems

(vaidic atleast) do not allow for such a thing (at least not that I am aware

of).

 

> jivanmukti is that of course a body-mind is required to realise liberation

> but the fullness of liberation is immediate and does not require the

> body-mind to die before reaching completion?

 

Yes. Before jIvanmukti, there is Body-Mind for the individual. After that

happens, there are various explanations (including levels of jIvanmukti).

Please refer jIvanmukti-viveka of Shri Vidyaranya, for more details.

 

Hope this helps,

Ramakrishna

[Guest guest]

Namaste to all,

 

Thank you very much to Ramakrishna-ji for your help.

 

Am I understanding correctly - can I distinguish between the realisation of

liberation and its `fruit'...

 

If knowledge is required for liberation, knowledge, at least on the level of

vyavaharika-sat, requires a living, functioning, mind in order to apprehend the

truth of Brahman. If the jiva fails to realise liberation, then it is reborn in

another body-mind form, which is a further opportunity to realise liberation,

and then another, until liberation.

 

As long as knowledge is required for liberation, then it seems that liberation

can only be realised by a living jiva. This can perhaps be contrasted with some

Dvaitin views in which liberation is awarded freely by God after the death of

the jiva and does not depend on the jiva's knowledge.

 

Therefore it seems to me that jivanmukti is not referring to the realisation of

liberation but to its `fruit' ie that in Shankara's view the fullness of

liberation is available immediately to the mukta, that the jiva is eternally

liberated and there is in reality no difference between jivanmukti and

videha-mukti.

 

This can perhaps be contrasted with a non-Advaitin view that although mukti can

be secured by a living jiva, the full fruit of that (eg Vaikuntha) must wait

until the death of the body, and therefore in this view, jivanmukti would be

inferior to videha-mukti.

 

Ju

 

 

 

Ramakrishna Upadrasta <uramakrishna

advaitin

Monday, March 30, 2009 12:42:08 AM

Re: Mukti 1

 

 

 

It was Shankara who showed that the karma can never be exhausted, except by

(and only by) GYAna. This GYAna, which makes one realize that He is akarta

(non-doer) and abhoka (non-enjoyer) and realize His Infinity here and Now.

 

praNAms to all Advaitins,

Ramakrishna