Waking and Dream States - II

[Guest guest]

PraNAms to all.

 

This is a continuation of the precious post on the waking and dream states.

---------

 

3. Microcosm and Macrocosm:

 

If you examine closely the manDukya mantras 3 and 4 that describe the waking and

dream states, they run almost parallel. Mantra 3 says:

jaagaritasthAno bahiprajnaH| saptaangaH| ekonavishatimukhaH|

sthuulabhRigvaisvaanaraH| prathamaH paadaH||

and Mantra 4 says:

svapnasthaano anthaH prajnaH| saptaangaH| ekonavishatimukhaH|

praviviktabhuktaijasaH| dvitiiya paadaH||

 

The two aspects that are common are – saptaangaH| and ekonavishatimukhaH|

From the point of the waking state, BMI (body, mind and intellect) it is called

bahiprajnaH as the waking world is external to the waker’s mind; and the dream

state is ‘antaH prajnaH’ internal to the waker’s mind. The reference point

here is quite clear since Vedic teaching is for a waker not for a dreamer.

 

As we discussed, it is the suppressions or oppressions –or subtle impressions

- in the waking mind that form the cause for projection of the dream world.

While explaining the difference between the waking and dream states, Shankara

leaves the comment on the mantra 4 with the statement that the rest is similar

to the waking state or mantra 3, where he has explained the significance of the

two terms – saptaangaH and ekonavimshati mukhaH|

 

This is where the macrocosmic and microcosmic aspects are brought into a single

scoop using parallel statements both in the description of the waking and dream

worlds. In this aspect it is easier to follow for a seeker the dream experience

that everyone is very much familiar with and look at the problem, and then

relate to the parallel statement applicable to the waking state using the

scripture as pramANa. Thus we have Shruti statements supported by individual

dream experience helping us to resolve the issue. The clear understanding of the

two becomes a saadhana for both upaasana and jnaana.

 

Parallelism of the two: In this we will first look at the creative cause for the

two worlds to appreciate the parallelism – also emphasize the Vedic vision in

bringing out the parallelism in emphasizing the unifying principles in the micro

and macro cosmic visions.

 

The cause for the creation of the dream world is the suppressions and

oppressions in the waking mind as it goes through the waking-world experiences.

Immediate as well as some deeper impressions form the basis for the dream world.

We can expresses this in a generic form that there is a (dream) sanchitakarma

(total suppressed or oppressed desires, fears, anxieties, or lingering

vaasanaas, etc) parts of which (dream-praarabda karma) that are ready to

germinate and form the basis of the particular dream world of creation. For

dream projection, the waker’s intellect is at its low level (lack of clear

discrimination of what is real and what is the mind’s projection – similar

to nitya-anitya vastu viveka) and there appears to be no will or freewill to

act. Therefore we do not accumulate new account (dream aagaami karma) to be

deposited for waker’s mind. Dream is only a clearing house for the (waker’s)

mind. I do not have any control on the praarabda

karma – as the seeds are already there to germinate which expresses in the

dream world of creation and experience. Therefore waker’s mind supported by

consciousness is a creator of the dream world and the vaasanaas provide the

basis for the creation. For those vaasanaas that are ready for exhaustion, the

dream field (kshetram or loka) is provided. Thus the previous karmas or

previous samskaara provides the basis for the dream creation. Creative power of

the mind with consciousness behind is the maayaa shakti – that power which

makes one to appear as many. What is the proof of the existence of maayaa

shakti? The very fact that one mind has become many is the proof. What is the

proof for the existence of any force? – the fact that object at rest is start

moving is the direct proof that there is a force that causes that motion – in

fact that is how a force is defined. Similarly the maayaa is defined as the

creative force that rests with the

conscious entity behind the waker’s mind.

 

In the dream there are varieties of objects as well as many subjects, i.e.

beings with various types of anatomies, while one total mind permeates all those

chara and achara or movables and immovables. Another interesting aspect of the

dream is not only the whole world of plurality of beings and non-beings are

created, I, the waker also project myself as one tiny subject, a seer or

experiencer of the dream world of plurality. The dream world that I perceive is

different from me, who became one of the dream subjects in my own dream that are

distinctly different from the other dream subjects and the inert matter.

Scripture confirms that like a waker, I, who is the one of the dream subjects in

the dream, also have nineteen gates (ekonavimshati) or nineteen outlets to

experience the dream world (mantra 4).

 

Now we can ask the question - is the dream world external or internal? It is

internal from the point of the waker’s mind but it is also external from the

point of the dream subject that I have become in the dream. Hence one has to be

clear from what reference the statements are made. Just as I have body, mind and

intellect associated with the tiny (not physically tiny but tiny in relation to

the rest of the dream world) entity in the dream, there are other subjects who

have their own tiny bodies, minds and intellects. My mind in the dream is

different from the others minds that are operating in the dream world. I am a

microcosmic entity in my own dream which differs from the rest of the cosmos in

the dream. Looking from the waker’s mind, it forms the Hiranya garba for the

dream world, the total mind that constituting all the minds of all the jiivas in

the dream world put together. One can also visualize total gross body or matter

that is made up of

all the matter in the dream world put together that forming the viraat purushaH

of the dream world who has the saptaangaH –the seven limbs - of the total

purusha of the dream world. Since waker’s mind is all pervading it is the

total mind in all the diversified minds of the all the subjects in the dream.

Every object that is perceived or perceivable that exists in the dream universe

is a creation from the point of the waker’s mind. No object in the dream world

can exist without the knowledge of the waker’s mind. But from the point of the

'I', the dream subject, I have to use essentially the ekonavishati – the 19

gateways to experience the world outside the dream subject that I am. I, the

dream subject, will be operating the pramANa or means of knowledge to establish

the existence of the objects in the dream, while I the waker’s mind know

exactly what are all objects in the dream world that exists. Hence from the

point of the dream, the

waker’s mind is sarvajnaH or and from the point of dream subject, I am only

alpajnaH – or only knows the existence of those that I know.

 

By emphasizing the parallel aspect of the two worlds in the two mantras, 3 and 4

of ManDukya, the Upanishad provides us the inconceivable perception (divya

dRishTi) of the total world of the waking state in relation to the tiny world

that I perceive through my 19 gate ways of the subject that I am as a waker. The

waking world can be conceived using the dream world as an example that we

experience everyday. There are verities of objects or inert materials

constituting galaxies and galaxies away as well as other 13 lokas that we can

only from the scriptures that constitutes this universe as well as various

living beings in various anatomies, all part of the total projection of one mind

that pervades the whole universe as both the efficient, instrument as well as

the material cause of the universe. No object in this universe can ever exist

without the knowledge of that total mind. Consciousness identified with the

total mind is called Iswara of the

creation. He cannot be inside or outside the creation – He is the creation

itself. The total subtle body of all the jiivas put together can form Hiranya

garba of the waking world, as the creator that has all the knowledge of the

creation. He is the sarvajnaH, all knower, of the waking world. Just as in the

case of the dream, the total mind itself becomes a so-called tiny BMI of the

waking world. Hence looking from the tiny BMI, the individual that I am, I am

having the 19 gate ways to experience the total world in front of me. On the

other hand looking from the total BMI of all the beings put together, I become

Viraat swaruupa of the waking world with – seven limbs – saptaangaH. In

just two simple looking mantras, the whole creation brought in total perspective

from the point of micro and macro cosmic aspects in both waking world and the

dream world.

 

Just as for the dream world, the vaasanaas form the basis for the individual

dream world, the total vaasanaas of all jiivas put together form the samashTi

vaasanaas that from the basis for the creation of the total universe. The blue

print for the creation of the dream world come from the vaasanaas of the

individual and blue print for the creation of the waking world comes from the

samashTi vaasanaas of the all jiivas put together. The creative power (maayaa

shakti) manifests with Iswara when those part of the total vaasanaas are ready

to germinate in the cycle of creation. What is the proof for maaya shakti? One

becoming into many itself is the very proof for maaya – He visualized, let me

become many and He became many – is the essence of how the creation of one

becoming into many – the power of creation to become many is inherent in the

very becoming – just as in dream. The blue prints for this creation is

provided by the vaasanaas or karma

(sancita karma) of the previous creation cycle; and for the previous one,

previous to previous – this is beginning-less as

creation-sustenance-dissolution is a cyclic process.

 

The dream is not real – declares the waker. So is the waking world says

scripture since it has beginning – sustenance – and dissolution – what is

there is that all pervading waker, who is not the dream creation nor the dream

subject but a waker that transcends the dream objects and subjects. In the same

way what is there is only that all pervading reality that does not undergo any

changes in all the changes that is occurring and that remains as eternal –

pure existence-consciousness – limitless; and that you are – tat tvam asi

– says the scripture and that is the turiiyam that is described in the 7th

mantra of the ManDukya.

 

Any claims that one is more real than the other is also invalid from the point

of absolute but only relatively valid from the point each reference frame. Each

one is only a paada or part of the four paadas that scripture defines. The

fourth one is actually not a paada although people call it to differentiate it

from the other three (caturtam manyante) – it is the essential truth that

permeates all the three, which is adivatam sa aatma sa vijneyaH – the one

without a second and that is the self – the existence – consciousness that

you are.

 

Thus the parallelism that the scripter points out between the waking and dream

world has to be understood using our experience, logic and the scriptures; not

necessarily in that order.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

PraNams -I tried to respond to both pranipata caitanyaji and Michael in one post without realizing that they come from two different list serves. My apologies. Here is the response to Michael's comments, if any one else is interested since I know both of them are members of the other list.

--------------------

 

 

--- On Mon, 3/30/09, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:Namaste Sada-ji,To call the dream experience ‘perception’ is an imprecision that leads to mistakes. Perception applies to the waking state only. If I have a perception of the great hall of the temple at Tiruvanamalai I can proceed to count the pillars there. If I imagine or dream that I am there I can do no such thing.---------Michael – PraNams and thanks again.As I see, you are applying the perceptual process in the waking state directly to the mental states applicable in the waking. I, as a subject in my own dream also have 19 mouths according to

upanishad – which include five jnaana indiriyaas, eyes, ears etc and also five karma indriyaas, the speech, hands etc. So the dreamer also sees his dream created Tiruvannamalai temple and it pillars and he can count them with his karmendriyas –In fact he may even create more pillars to count than the original temple. He will not have any problem. Each system is fully equipped – that is what the 19 mouths imply in both waking and dream states. Hence I will not have any conflict in counting the pillars in Tiruvannamalai temple may be even count better than in the waking state. Hence perception can apply equally to the dream state. There also I will have impressions from the perception in my tiny mind in dream and those are internal perceptions where just as in waking state the memory rules apply. The parallelism of the dream in this respect is exact. It gets nullified if you try to analyze the dream perceptions with

the yard stick of the waker’s indriyaas.

-------------------

Michael:

 

Comment: This is an interesting idea. It seems fanciful particularly when

one considers that the world was here long before humans arrived on the

scene.

 

Sada: Agreed. Yes the world is created first – but after the creation as per Vedanta, the jiivas entered – anupravesha – and jiivas are eternal as per Vedanta and Krishna says in the 8th Ch. bhuutabhaavodbhavakaro visargaH karma sanjnitaH|| The creative force that causes beings to spring forth into manifestation is called ‘karma’ or work. The samashTi vaasanaas form that Karma – impressions from the previous creation cycle. Hence as per the blue print, the fields are created – as you say way before the being entered so that experiences can yoked out. The fields that are created depends on the vaasanaas the jiiva’s have. The analogy is extended to the dream world too since what is created is the fields to exhaust the suppressions or vaasanaas that cannot be exhausted in the waking state.

Hope I am clear.

Hari om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

on Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:00:11 +0100, kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada wrote:

 

> PraNams -I tried to respond to both pranipata caitanyaji and Michael in

> one post without realizing that they come from two different list

> serves. My apologies. Here is the response to Michael's comments, if any

> one else is interested since I know both of them are members of the

> other list.

> --------------------

>  

>  

> --- On Mon, 3/30/09, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

>

> Namaste Sada-ji,

> To call the dream experience ‘perception’ is an imprecision that leads to

> mistakes. Perception applies to the waking state only. If I have a

> perception of the great hall of the temple at Tiruvanamalai I can proceed

> to count the pillars there. If I imagine or dream that I am there I can

> do no such thing.

> ---------

> Michael – PraNams  and thanks again.

>

> As I see, you are applying the perceptual process in the waking state

> directly to the mental states applicable in the waking. I, as a subject

> in my own dream also have 19 mouths according to upanishad  – which

> include five jnaana indiriyaas, eyes, ears etc and also five karma

> indriyaas, the speech, hands etc. So the dreamer also sees  his dream

> created Tiruvannamalai temple and it pillars and he can count them with

> his karmendriyas –In fact he may even create more pillars to count than

> the original temple.  He will not have any problem. Each system is fully

> equipped – that is what the 19 mouths imply in both waking and dream

> states. Hence I will not have any conflict in counting the pillars in

> Tiruvannamalai temple may be even count better than in the waking state.

>

> Hence perception can apply equally to the dream state. There also I will

> have impressions from the perception in my tiny mind in dream and those

> are internal perceptions where just as in waking state the memory rules

> apply.  The parallelism of the dream in this respect is exact. It gets

> nullified if you try to analyze the dream perceptions with the yard

> stick of the waker’s indriyaas.

> -------------------

 

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Namaste Sada-ji,

Politicians would love this concept of counting. Nobody would ever lose

nor for that matter would anybody ever win when the dream ballot could be

as good as the waking one. The concept of counting when all results are

equivalent falls apart.

 

Best Wishes,

Michael

[Guest guest]

Sada-ji wrote:

Sada: Agreed. Yes the world is created first – but after the creation as

per Vedanta, the jiivas entered – anupravesha – and jiivas are eternal as

per Vedanta and Krishna says in the 8th Ch. bhuutabhaavodbhavakaro

visargaH karma sanjnitaH|| The creative force that causes beings to spring

forth into manifestation is called ‘karma’ or work. The samashTi vaasanaas

form that Karma – impressions from the previous creation cycle. Hence as

per the blue print, the fields are created – as you say way before the

being entered so that experiences can yoked out. The fields that are

created depends on the vaasanaas the jiiva’s have. The analogy is extended

to the dream world too since what is created is the fields to exhaust the

suppressions or vaasanaas that cannot be exhausted in the waking state.

 

Hope I am clear.

Hari om!

Sadananda

 

||||||||||||||||||||||

 

Namaste Sada-ji,

You've lost me there. Maybe someone else can step in

and elucidate. What is the position of Darwinian evolution in this

scheme? Can it be adapted to include it?

 

Best Wishes,

Michael

[Guest guest]

--- On Tue, 3/31/09, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

Namaste Sada-ji,

Politicians would love this concept of counting. Nobody would ever lose

nor for that matter would anybody ever win when the dream ballot could be

as good as the waking one. The concept of counting when all results are

equivalent falls apart.

 

-----

Michael - PraNAms

 

Agreed again. But remember the politicians in the dream will be happy as long as

counting is correct, particularly if their job depends on that. If not, they

will go to dream court to make sure the count is correct or appoint a dream

commision is appointed to insure proper counting. Everything is self-consistent.

If it is a dictotorial dream country, I may loose my dream head for not counting

according to their rules.

 

Anyway I think that is what the implication of the 19 mouths in the dream state

also mean.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

--- On Tue, 3/31/09, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

 

You've lost me there. Maybe someone else can step in

and elucidate. What is the position of Darwinian evolution in this

scheme? Can it be adapted to include it?

 

-----

Michael - PraNAms

 

Let me try again.

 

1. Jiivas are eternal - no creation of jiivas as per Vedanta. Krishna starts his

teaching to Arjuna with this statement - natvevaaham .. There was never a time I

was not there, nor you, nor all these kings --Therefore there is no reason for

you to cry. He nails it down with absolute law of conservation - that which

exists can never cease to exist and that which is not existent will never come

into existence.

 

2. Creation as accounted in say Cha. Up. 6th Chapter - The Lord first visualized

- tat aikshataa - This visualization is essentially establishes 1) the sat that

was existent is a conscious existence (BS- uses this aikshata word to establish

that, and 2) it means he planned looking all the karmas of all the jiivas which

require a field for exhaustion - hence creation as per the sloka that I gave

from 8th ch where Krishna defines what is karma - it is that which is the cause

for the creation - That is the blue print. The samaShTi vaasanaas are the karmas

here that need a field for exhaustion - hence the lokas are created to provide

the field by panchiikaraNa process.

 

The jiivas entered into the grosser forms - that is the BMI depending on their

praarabda karma.

 

Hence vaasanaas existing previous pralaya, form the seeds for next creation.

This cycle of creation, sustenance and dissolution is cyclic - the dissolution

is not absence of jiivas - they go into potential form just as when we go to

laya or deep sleep, the subtle body goes into potential form with all its latent

impressions or vaasanaas.

The same thing happens at local scale when waker's mind act as creation field

when one goes to dream state. That in condensed form represents the parallel

statements in the ManDukya quoted.

 

Hope this time it is clear. Otherwise I am sure someone will pick it up.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda