Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Namaskarams to all, I have a doubt. This has to do with the practical aspects of Vedanta. When we look at disasters like the earthquake in India, the tsunami of 2004 (?), volcanic eruptions etc., why is it that so many innocent people die? Is it that their karmas, somehow coincidentally, were all equally bad at the same time and some power had determined that they should all die? All at the same time? Secondly, in the case of man made disasters like the Jewish holocaust, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, why does man have to behave in such a way as to annihilate 000's of fellow humans? How can we find answers to the satisfaction of the 'normal' dualist? With pranaams, Sai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Shree sai - PraNAms I think I had responded to a similar question after the mumbai terrist attack. Dennis has this in his website. Hari Om! Sadananda--- On Mon, 3/30/09, Indian Rediff <indianrediff wrote: Indian Rediff <indianrediff What is Vedanta's reasoning behind disastersadvaitin Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 9:31 PM Namaskarams to all,I have a doubt. This has to do with the practical aspects of Vedanta.When we look at disasters like the earthquake in India, the tsunami of2004 (?), volcanic eruptions etc., why is it that so many innocentpeople die? Is it that their karmas, somehow coincidentally, were allequally bad at the same time and some power had determined that theyshould all die? All at the same time?Secondly, in the case of man made disasters like the Jewish holocaust,Hiroshima and Nagasaki, why does man have to behave in such a way asto annihilate 000's of fellow humans?How can we find answers to the satisfaction of the 'normal' dualist?With pranaams,Sai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 The link is: http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/terror_sadananda.htm Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of kuntimaddi sadananda Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:20 AM advaitin Re: What is Vedanta's reasoning behind disasters I think I had responded to a similar question after the mumbai terrist attack. Dennis has this in his website. Hari Om! Sadananda << I have a doubt. This has to do with the practical aspects of Vedanta. When we look at disasters like the earthquake in India, the tsunami of 2004 (?), volcanic eruptions etc., why is it that so many innocent people die? Is it that their karmas, somehow coincidentally, were all equally bad at the same time and some power had determined that they should all die? All at the same time? >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Sadaji, namastE! Your posting only, ofcourse beautifully, answers the question " what should be the attitude of the Vedantin when faced such situation? " ... But if I understood it right, Sri Sai is asking " why this happens at all... " Saiji, if anything is happening to anyone ... there is a reason behind it. If one is angry there is a reason behind that anger, if one feels guilty there is a reason for that guilt to be there. All things in this nature run by the invisible laws, just like the law of grativation. Your question " why so many innocent people die " can only be answered if we objectively see the judge in the person who is arriving at a conclusion " innocance " ... This is a daiviguna (an act of compassion) super-imposed on the object. Compassion belongs to you but the object will follow its own course. Why do these things happen? They did... they do... they will... We have a choice to fight like Rama and Krishna or flight.. Choice is ours. Love & Light, Madhava Love & Light, Madhava advaitin , Indian Rediff <indianrediff wrote: > > Namaskarams to all, > > I have a doubt. This has to do with the practical aspects of Vedanta. > When we look at disasters like the earthquake in India, the tsunami of > 2004 (?), volcanic eruptions etc., why is it that so many innocent > people die? Is it that their karmas, somehow coincidentally, were all > equally bad at the same time and some power had determined that they > should all die? All at the same time? > > Secondly, in the case of man made disasters like the Jewish holocaust, > Hiroshima and Nagasaki, why does man have to behave in such a way as > to annihilate 000's of fellow humans? > > How can we find answers to the satisfaction of the 'normal' dualist? > > With pranaams, > > Sai > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dennisji, Sadaji and Madhavaji, Namaskarams. Thank you very much for taking the time to read my post. As Madhavaji put it, I am not asking how we should respond to such events. I am not even questioning why such events happen - who can control meteors, earthquakes, volcanoes, cyclones and tsunamis? These are workings of nature that happen because that is how the earth was shaped. My question is from the point of view of the people that suffer as a result of these happenings. I am asking why 'innocent' people get hurt. If the view is that 'a majority' of the people that suffer in these incidents have bad karma, then my question would be, why the 'collateral damage'? I have tried to rationalise this and attempted to answer it (in my mind) as follows: Mankind should know where danger lies within nature. Mankind should try to look at past events as guide posts to build residences in areas that minimise such damage. Unfortunately, mankind is greedy and wants to build at the sea coast, on top of fault zones, on mountain slopes of active volcanoes. If nature takes its course, then why blame nature for the consequences of living with danger? Past accidents, even thought they may have happened many years ago, had a purpose - to warn the future people of the dangers of choosing to live there. Even the present incidents (accidents) serve the same purpose. Does my explanation make sense? With pranams, Sai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 advaitin , Indian Rediff <indianrediff wrote: > > When we look at disasters like the earthquake in India, the tsunami > of 2004 (?), volcanic eruptions etc., why is it that so many > innocent people die? > ..[snip].. > Secondly, in the case of man made disasters like the Jewish > holocaust, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, why does man have to behave in > such a way as to annihilate 000's of fellow humans? Hari OM! Such questions may arise in every seeker attempting vichaar or enquiry- self-enquiry. Insofar as these make us reflect not brood, enthuse not depress, challenge not dishearten, to contemplate the mysteries of life and consciousness-they seem to help much Sadhana. If even such colossal events cannot make one question or conduct any vichaar, I doubt if even God knows what else would! When asking why so many die in natural disasters, we may also ask why so many more live. Millions, no billions of jeevas (living beings) are sustained, fed, and cared for every minute/second in universe in utter harmony without any fan fare by nature- outer and inner. Earth rotates, sun shines, with or without any one acknowledging or being grateful. Our hearts beat and breathing continues even when we are too tired to notice or even care! Food is prepared for new born in advance- not by father or even by mother or HMOs- but by nature to suit the needs of infant inside mother's breasts. Someone seems profoundly interested in us than we can even fully imagine. That life, or consciousness which lends vitality to every thing, without which we could not even ask these questions or do vichaar- seems immensely part of our core being. What can be done to prevent disasters, if any? Gita's verse III.32 seems very insightful. dhoomenaavriyate vahnir yathaadsarsho malena cha yatholbenaavrito garbhas tathaa tenedam aavritam|| " Just as smoke veils fire, dust particles cover a mirror, or the amnion envelops an embryo, so desire veils knowledge. " Three metaphors give us three pointers to prevent disasters. All wars or terrors begin in minds. Likewise minds should gain peace before it spreads to world around. In first metaphor, it is very easy to blow off smoke over fire. To remove dust over mirror takes some effort. And to deliver embryo, lot of patience, time and labor is needed. Before thought of hate/disaster takes root in mind, it is easier to blow off to keep fire of noble aspiration shining. Once disastrous thought development is complete in mind, it is veiled by it, and mind cannot see clearly now. It takes effort to substitute it with positive one by practising pratipaksha-bhavana. Finally when word or is let out, it gathers size, limbs and even life of its own! ========================== Hari OM! -Srinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 advaitin , " Srinivas Nagulapalli " <srini_nagul wrote: > > Finally when word or is let out, it gathers size, limbs and > even life of its own! Sorry! The word " ACTION " got missed(let out!) above! Please read as: ------------------------- Finally, when word or ACTION is let out, it gathers size, limbs and even life of its own! ------------------------- Hari OM! -Srinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Sai-ji, I do appreciate your concern but I doubt that you will find an answer that is satisfactory to the position that you are taking in asking the question. As you point out, the theory of karma seems to beg a few questions. But the point is that this is only one of those ‘interim’ explanations that I mentioned a couple of posts ago, that have to be discarded as your understanding grows. Your explanation is certainly in the spirit of karma. You might also note that jIva-s are said to ‘choose their own birth’, according to the saMskAra that needs to be worked out, so that could explain the apparent ‘collateral damage’. I answered a similar question some time ago on my website and the following part of this is relevant: “You then ask whether suffering is necessary or whether there is any point to the alleviation of suffering. The phrasing implies that the full consequences of the above have not been taken on board. To whom or for what could anything be ‘necessary’? For whom could anything have a ‘point’? Suffering is an intrinsic part of vyavahAra so will (appear to) continue for all of those jIva-s still mired in mAyA. Anything that appears to be done to alleviate this would itself still be a part of the dream and would inevitably only be temporary anyway. The only way out of it is through the realisation that it is only an appearance – name and form imposed upon the non-dual reality, which is always perfect and complete and totally unaffected by the seeming change, whether it be deemed (by the jIva) to be good or evil. Ultimately, nothing in the appearance matters because it is only an appearance. Whilst still apparently trapped in the appearance, it matters very much and the way out is through removal of the ignorance. This can only be achieved through knowledge, which can arrive from scriptures or from a guru or preferably both. But nothing can be done (because there is no one to do it) so we rely on the operation of cause and effect. E.g. reading this, someone might be caused to read more, track down a teacher etc. The teacher, similarly, teaches because teaching is part of the nature of that body-mind in the (apparent) creation.” There is a very nice quote from David Carse, which expresses this point (he is a neo-advaitin! and author of the excellent book ‘Perfect Brilliant Stillness’ – see http://www.advaita.org.uk/reading/read_neo.htm and http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/vision_carse.htm ). He says: " Taking the dream to be real is not what causes suffering; it is the suffering. " Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Indian Rediff Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:55 AM advaitin Re: What is Vedanta's reasoning behind disasters << I have tried to rationalise this and attempted to answer it (in my mind) as follows: Mankind should know where danger lies within nature. Mankind should try to look at past events as guide posts to build residences in areas that minimise such damage. Unfortunately, mankind is greedy and wants to build at the sea coast, on top of fault zones, on mountain slopes of active volcanoes. If nature takes its course, then why blame nature for the consequences of living with danger? Past accidents, even thought they may have happened many years ago, had a purpose - to warn the future people of the dangers of choosing to live there. Even the present incidents (accidents) serve the same purpose. Does my explanation make sense? >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 PraNAms to all There are two aspects - one is why and the other is what can I do? Considering that all these questions pertain to vyavahaara only. The simple answer for why? is just praarabda - Krishna himself answers since PaanDavaas who are on the good side of Krishna had to suffer more than the bad guys - Krishna advise is tan titikshasva bhaarata - forbearance is the only solution when one cannot do anything about them- aagamaapaynaH anityaaH - that which comes, goes and they are non-eternal. Noone suffers unnecessarily is the absolute law. Or one gets what one deserves - is the rule of the thumb. But that is not acceptance of what we have. Swami Chinmayanandaji puts this in beautiful form - what I have is praarabda and what I do with what I have is purushaartha. As long as I am in vyavahaara, the drama has to be played, with the notion that I am doer or notion that I am not a doer - I intentionally put both choices as notions only. In this regard the prayer of serenity comes to my mind - that should be the correct attitude in the action. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Saiji, Namaste This is no answer to your question but something I would like to point out. You ask: Why is it that so many innocent people die? Innocent or not, everybody dies. Whats wrong with dying? If someones karmas for this lifetime have all fructified, there is no reason to keep the body. So he will die - whether young or old, whether innocent or guilty, whether in an earthquake or through heart attack or measles, whether alone or with many others at the same time. Om Shanti Sitara advaitin , Indian Rediff <indianrediff wrote: > > Namaskarams to all, > > I have a doubt. This has to do with the practical aspects of Vedanta. > When we look at disasters like the earthquake in India, the tsunami of > 2004 (?), volcanic eruptions etc., why is it that so many innocent > people die? Is it that their karmas, somehow coincidentally, were all > equally bad at the same time and some power had determined that they > should all die? All at the same time? > > Secondly, in the case of man made disasters like the Jewish holocaust, > Hiroshima and Nagasaki, why does man have to behave in such a way as > to annihilate 000's of fellow humans? > > How can we find answers to the satisfaction of the 'normal' dualist? > > With pranaams, > > Sai > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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