Even Consciousness is not the Final Realy?!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Maniji

 

Sorry to barge in.

 

The last sentence of your post is the real clincher.

 

When even the thought of punarjani becomes a total impossibility, then one is

truly liberated. That happens when you are truly EXISTENCE expressed as

immortality in our language of the mundane. Till then, it is all a talk of

recognition, appreciation and attitude. Of course no problem with that. It is

always better than self-ignorance but not necessarily liberation, the end of

vedanta.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

_____________

 

-- In advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani wrote:

 

> However, at vyAvahaArika level, one can appreciate and recognize the fact that

Self, alone is there without a second, and in Reality one is that Self, i.e.

satchidAnanda Atma, and this appreciation and recognition itself has a very big

say on one’s attitude while transacting, which one cannot avoid, in

vyAvaharika level.

 

> Quite frankly, I do not know what exactly moksham or mukti involve, but with

this attitude IMHO Punarjanmam itself is not a problem.  I may be wrong here. 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mani-ji,

What you say is correct – there is no pAramArthika knower-knowing-known,

since there is no dualistic manifestation. All of ‘this’ is vyAvahArika –

including mokSha. Enlightenment is the event in the mind of the person, when the

truths of the mahAvAkya-s become known for certain. It is the end of punar

janma because it is now know that there never was a birth in the first place;

there is no person.

 

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of R.S.MANI

Thursday, April 02, 2009 6:21 AM

group

Even Consciousness is not the Final Realy?!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<<When

you say “that all of this is vyAvahArika knowledge, even though it is

according to shrutiâ€, is there “any knowledge†in pAramArthika sense,

as the “other†is not there in pAramArthika sense, and therefore what

knowledge can be there? And what you say “Knowledge, in our usually

understood sense of the word could have no meaning in a pAramArthika senseâ€,

is because at pAramArthika no knowledge is possible as triputi is absent.

>>

<<Quite frankly, I do not know what exactly

moksham or mukti involve, but with this attitude IMHO Punarjanmam itself is

not a problem.>>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Pranam to all

The knowledge is possible only in duality [what you are calling it

as vyAvahArika]. There is no knowledge in reality/non duality [what

you are calling it as [pAramArthika]. The word and thoughts has no

meaning in nondual true state [natural state/sahaj samadhi] of the

self/Ataman. No knowledge is possible in natural state of the

self/Ataman [pAramArthika] because the true self is free from duality

. The freedom or liberation [moksham or mukti] is freedom from

experiencing the duality as reality [illusion].

This is my conviction; please correct me if I am wrong.

With respect and regards

Santthosh

On 4/2/09, Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

> Dear Mani-ji,

>

> What you say is correct – there is no pAramArthika knower-knowing-known,

> since there is no dualistic manifestation. All of ‘this’ is vyAvahArika –

> including mokSha. Enlightenment is the event in the mind of the person, when

> the truths of the mahAvAkya-s become known for certain. It is the end of

> punar janma because it is now know that there never was a birth in the first

> place; there is no person.

>

>

>

> advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

> Of R.S.MANI

> Thursday, April 02, 2009 6:21 AM

> group

> Even Consciousness is not the Final Realy?!

>

>

>

>

> <<When you say “that all of this is vyAvahArika knowledge, even though it

> is according to shruti”, is there “any knowledge” in pAramArthika sense, as

> the “other” is not there in pAramArthika sense, and therefore what knowledge

> can be there? And what you say “Knowledge, in our usually understood sense

> of the word could have no meaning in a pAramArthika sense”, is because at

> pAramArthika no knowledge is possible as triputi is absent. >>

>

> <<Quite frankly, I do not know what exactly moksham or mukti involve, but

> with this attitude IMHO Punarjanmam itself is not a problem.>>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Respected Sir,

The knower knowing and known is absent in the natural state

of the self/Ataman, since there is no duality . The duality consists of man,

world and his desire for freedom. When the seeking mind gets enlightened of the

fact of its nondual true nature [Ataman/true self], it becomes aware of the fact

that, the duality is mere illusion, on the standpoint of Ataman as self. Thus, birth, life and death are part of the

illusion, on the standpoint of the true self/Ataman.

This is my reading from your message. Please correct me if I

am wrong.

With respect and regards

Santthosh

advaitin , "Dennis Waite" <dwaite wrote:>> Dear Mani-ji,> > What you say is correct â€" there is no pAramArthika knower-knowing-known, since there is no dualistic manifestation. All of ‘this’ is vyAvahArika â€" including mokSha. Enlightenment is the event in the mind of the person, when the truths of the mahAvAkya-s become known for certain. It is the end of punar janma because it is now know that there never was a birth in the first place; there is no person.> > > > advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of R.S.MANI> Thursday, April 02, 2009 6:21 AM> group> Even Consciousness is not the Final Realy?!> > > > > <<When you say “that all of this is vyAvahArika knowledge, even though it is according to shrutiâ€, is there “any knowledge†in pAramArthika sense, as the “other†is not there in pAramArthika sense, and therefore what knowledge can be there? And what you say “Knowledge, in our usually understood sense of the word could have no meaning in a pAramArthika senseâ€, is because at pAramArthika no knowledge is possible as triputi is absent. >>> > <<Quite frankly, I do not know what exactly moksham or mukti involve, but with this attitude IMHO Punarjanmam itself is not a problem.>>>

[Guest guest]

Dear Santthosh-ji,

 

What you say is correct. But, just to clarify your final sentence in case

anyone should misinterpret it:

 

We are already, always free. It is only self-ignorance that prevents us from

knowing this. What is called mokSha is, as I said, the event in the mind

when this is realized to be the case. Subsequent to this realization, the

apparent duality continues to be experienced but is now known to be only an

appearance upon the eternal non-dual substratum, which is my true nature.

(But let us not open up that discussion again!)

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

Of Santthosh Kumaar

Sunday, April 05, 2009 4:21 AM

advaitin

Re: Even Consciousness is not the Final Realy?!

 

Pranam to all

The knowledge is possible only in duality [what you are calling it

as vyAvahArika]. There is no knowledge in reality/non duality [what

you are calling it as [pAramArthika]. The word and thoughts has no

meaning in nondual true state [natural state/sahaj samadhi] of the

self/Ataman. No knowledge is possible in natural state of the

self/Ataman [pAramArthika] because the true self is free from duality

. The freedom or liberation [moksham or mukti] is freedom from

experiencing the duality as reality [illusion].

This is my conviction; please correct me if I am wrong.

With respect and regards

Santthosh

[Guest guest]

That is the correct understanding, yes.

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of santthoshkumaar

Sunday, April 05, 2009 4:41 AM

advaitin

Re: Even Consciousness is not the Final Realy?!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respected Sir,

The knower knowing and

known is absent in the natural state of the self/Ataman, since there is no

duality . The duality consists of man, world and his desire for freedom.

When the seeking mind gets enlightened of the fact of its nondual true nature

[Ataman/true self], it becomes aware of the fact that, the duality is mere

illusion, on the standpoint of Ataman as self. Thus, birth,

life and death are part of the illusion, on the standpoint of the true self/Ataman.

This is my reading from

your message. Please correct me if I am wrong.

With respect and regards

Santthosh

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite

wrote:

[Guest guest]

One wants to eat the case and have it too!

 

MN

_____________

 

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

 

>> Subsequent to this realization, the

> apparent duality continues to be experienced but is now known to be only an

> appearance upon the eternal non-dual substratum, which is my true nature.

[Guest guest]

Dear Dennisji,

Thank you sir, it is very kind of

you to respond. I am grateful for your guidance. My clarification to my last sentence is: Until

one is ignorant of the true self [Ataman], which is the formless substance and

witness of the duality, he is bound to experience the duality as reality. The dream

becomes unreal when waking takes place. Same way the waking becomes unreal,

when the non dual wisdom dawns in the midst of duality. When wisdom dawns in the

midst of duality, one becomes aware of the fact that, the whole experience of diversity

[illusion] is created out of Ataman, and sustained by Ataman, and finally dissolves

as Ataman. Thus, the true nature of the true self [Ataman] is not ego [i/my] but

it is formless and non dual. This is my conviction.

With respect and regards

Santthosh

advaitin , "Dennis Waite" <dwaite wrote:>> Dear Santthosh-ji,> > What you say is correct. But, just to clarify your final sentence in case> anyone should misinterpret it:> > We are already, always free. It is only self-ignorance that prevents us from> knowing this. What is called mokSha is, as I said, the event in the mind> when this is realized to be the case. Subsequent to this realization, the> apparent duality continues to be experienced but is now known to be only an> appearance upon the eternal non-dual substratum, which is my true nature.> (But let us not open up that discussion again!)> > Best wishes,> Dennis> > > advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf> Of Santthosh Kumaar> Sunday, April 05, 2009 4:21 AM> advaitin > Re: Even Consciousness is not the Final Realy?!> > Pranam to all> The knowledge is possible only in duality [what you are calling it> as vyAvahArika]. There is no knowledge in reality/non duality [what> you are calling it as [pAramArthika]. The word and thoughts has no> meaning in nondual true state [natural state/sahaj samadhi] of the> self/Ataman. No knowledge is possible in natural state of the> self/Ataman [pAramArthika] because the true self is free from duality> . The freedom or liberation [moksham or mukti] is freedom from> experiencing the duality as reality [illusion].> This is my conviction; please correct me if I am wrong.> With respect and regards> Santthosh>