New Here, and questions about Self Inquiry

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I'm new here, from Israel, registered after I read some excerpts from Dennis Waite's book.

My spiritual search began with a lot of ecstasy. I was practicing some esoteric meditations and was thrown into many blissful higher states. When I first heard about Advaita (read Nissargadatta Maharaj), 3 years ago, I knew that nothing can't be more direct and true, so I stopped meditating, and started parcticing only Self Inquiry since then.

I had many glimpses, which would be hard to describe, but mainly the feeling that there is a much bigger entity in me that what I'm used to think, or that there is a sharp seperation between me as a subject and all other objects, as if I'm watching some movie, but kind of panoramic one .

I must admit that I feel some loss since I've started Self Inquiry. This body-mind misses all the higher states of bliss and peace produced directly by meditation. I know that chasing for higher states is an illusion, and that Self Inquiry is a right and gradual way to transcend/eliminate the persona, but I wonder - How can one know that he is on the right track when practicing Self Inquiry?

The fact is that after 3 years of practice I feel bad than ever in my spiritual journy, I feel imprisoned in my body-mind 24/7, the insights don't "hold", my mind is very active, and I can't meditate like before. It's been few months since there is no light (as if I used to have a connection to the divine, and now I'm detached), lots of identifications, there is unwillingness to surrender to unpleasant sensations, and a suffering, all the time. I'm afraid that I developed some conditions against the practice. I always expect certain things, and if they don't happen, I become depressed very quickly, and then my practice becomes more aggressive, which is worse (kind of a loop). Since I'm not interested in the mundane life at all, I kind of feel stuck, "not here and not there".

I read about a phenomenon called "dark night of the soul", which is similar to what I describe. I don't know if the hindu scriptures relate to this, but do other people who practice Self Inquiry have similar experiences over time which the mind interpet as regression?

Unfortunately, I don't know other people who follow this practice and what their experiences are.

Anyway, nice to see a group which is dedicated to Classical Advaita. Dennis, I would be grateful for your comment

 

[Guest guest]

--- On Mon, 4/6/09, Self Seeker <self.rememberence wrote:

 

.................

I always expect certain things, and if they don't happen, I become depressed

very quickly, and then my practice becomes more aggressive, which is worse (kind

of a loop). Since I'm not interested in the mundane life at all, I kind of feel

stuck,  " not here and not there " .

I read about a phenomenon called " dark night of the soul " , which is similar to

what I describe. I don't know if the hindu scriptures relate to this, but do

other people who practice Self Inquiry have similar experiences over time which

the mind interpet as regression?

Unfortunately, I don't know other people who follow this practice and what their

experiences are.

Anyway, nice to see a group which is dedicated to Classical Advaita. Dennis, I

would be grateful for your comment

---------------

 

Self Seaker, PraNAms

 

I would say you have come to the right place. I am sure Dennis would give you

very good advice how to seek the self without getting agitated or depressed.

 

Any experience is time bound and any new experience mind always wants to repeat

that, more so the blissful experience. Any time that comes, mind will always

slips back to the old experience and compare - that was better than this and

want to long again for that experience one had before. No new experience will

never be exactly will be the same as before since the state of mind before and

now are different. Before the mind did not have that experience and now the mind

something to compare.

That is the nature of the mind. It is not the experience that is problem but the

very longing for some experience that it has set as standard itself becomes a

problem. This is true even for many self seekers.

 

Advaita says you are already that what you are seeking. Seeking will not stop

until I realize that I am that what I am seeking. For that knowledge that I do

not seek and I am that already that I am that I am seeking, have to be deeply

understood as a fact for any seeking to stop.

 

There are some articles on 'Introduction to Vedanta' and also on Mind in the

Website of Dennis that may be of help to understand the problem and redirect the

mind in the right channel for inquiry - otherwise mind wants to experience

something that it had before and it will be always similar to a dog chasing its

tail. Hope this helps.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Good to see that reading the book has brought you here!

Many seekers unfortunately believe wrongly that experiences are

the aim; that somehow we can attain to a state wherein we experience permanent

bliss and the feeling of oneness with everything. This is not what it is about

at all. We each remain associated with these bodies until their death and

consequently are aware of their ups and downs, pains and pleasures. What we are

seeking is the knowledge that this is all mithyA; that the reality is non-dual

and we are That. This knowledge is only assuredly gained through proper teaching,

which really means finding a qualified guru and committing to studying with them

for as long as it takes.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Self Inquiry’. If

you are referring specifically to the technique advocated by Ramana Maharshi,

then read the recent discussions on this topic during the last couple of weeks –

it is unlikely *on its own* to be sufficient. If you mean simply investigating

on your own without the help of a teacher, then this is fraught with

difficulties. Of course, many simply do not have access to a good teacher, in

which case there is no choice in the matter (this was my own problem). If this

is the case, then you should embark upon a long study of key scriptures with

good commentaries and ask questions (e.g. in this group) if you do not

understand something.

You should also return to meditating regularly – and not

look for results or become impatient! This is one of the key practices for mind

preparation and is not intended on its own to lead to enlightenment.

Best wishes.

Dennis

 

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Self

Seeker

Monday, April 06, 2009 4:53 PM

advaitin

New Here, and questions about Self Inquiry

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<<

 

 

I must admit that I feel some loss since I've started

Self Inquiry. This body-mind misses all the higher states of bliss and peace

produced directly by meditation. I know that chasing for

higher states is an illusion, and that Self Inquiry is a right and

gradual way to transcend/eliminate the persona, but I wonder - How can one

know that he is on the right track when practicing Self Inquiry?

 

 

The fact is that after 3 years of practice I feel bad

than ever in my spiritual journy, I feel imprisoned in my body-mind 24/7, the

insights don't " hold " , my mind is very active, and I can't meditate

like before. It's been few months since there is no light (as if I used to have

a connection to the divine, and now I'm detached), lots of identifications,

there is unwillingness to surrender to unpleasant sensations, and a suffering,

all the time. I'm afraid that I developed some conditions against the practice.

I always expect certain things, and if they don't happen, I become depressed

very quickly, and then my practice becomes more aggressive, which is worse

(kind of a loop). Since I'm not interested in the mundane life at all, I kind

of feel stuck, " not here and not there " .

 

 

>>

[Guest guest]

Dennis-ji Wrote:

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Self Inquiry’. If you are referring

 

specifically to the technique advocated by Ramana Maharshi, then

 

read the recent discussions on this topic during the last couple

 

of weeks – it is unlikely *on its own* to be sufficient. If you

 

mean simply investigating on your own without the help of a

 

teacher, then this is fraught with difficulties. Of course, many

 

simply do not have access to a good teacher, in which case there

 

is no choice in the matter (this was my own problem). If this is

 

the case, then you should embark upon a long study of key

 

scriptures with good commentaries and ask questions (e.g. in this

 

group) if you do not understand something.

 

|||||||||||||||||

 

Namaste Dennis-ji,

The Divine Sage Ramana got his title by acclamation, it was not

 

self conferred as a marketing exercise. You are surely not so

 

literal as to suppose that 'That thou art' is the answer to 'Who

 

am I' or something of the sort. The considered response of the

 

wise heads here was that Ramana was the real thing and a sufficient

 

mentor, guide and guru.

 

Though I have a living teacher (Sathya Sai Baba) I ask if to make

 

it a sine qua non is to be unduly swayed by identification with

 

this body. Ramakrishna showed that the forms of the great teachers

 

were portals just as much now as when they were in the body. They

 

are ahistorical, atemporal and eternal. To restrict their

 

efficacy to the short span of years when they breathed lacks

 

spiritual imagination. No reflection on you personally, it is a

 

common cliche that needs to be examined. Why for instance are the

 

samadhis of saints places of pilgrimage?

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.

[Guest guest]

Dear Michael-ji,

As I already said not very long ago, I acknowledge Ramana as ‘the

real thing’ and *while he lived* undoubtedly a ‘sufficient mentor, guide

and guru’. I think the problem arises now when a seeker takes the ‘Who am I’

enquiry as a stand-alone exercise, out of the context of all his other teaching

and without the benefit of a ‘mentor, guide and guru’ and expects, with that

alone, to become enlightened. I suggest that this is most unlikely. And I

further suggest that Ramana himself would agree with me.

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of ombhurbhuva

Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:30 PM

advaitin

Re: New Here, and questions about Self Inquiry

 

 

 

 

 

 

<<The considered response of the

 

wise heads here was that Ramana was the real thing and a sufficient

 

mentor, guide and guru.>>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

>

> Dear Michael-ji,

>

> As I already said not very long ago, I acknowledge Ramana as ‘the real

thing’ and *while he lived* undoubtedly a ‘sufficient mentor, guide and

guru’. I think the problem arises now when a seeker takes the ‘Who am I’

enquiry as a stand-alone exercise, out of the context of all his other teaching

and without the benefit of a ‘mentor, guide and guru’ and expects, with that

alone, to become enlightened. I suggest that this is most unlikely. And I

further suggest that Ramana himself would agree with me.

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Dennis

 

Namaste D,IMO,

 

Ramana tolerated the minds in front of him as he hadn't an individual ego of his

own.

I don't think he meant 'Who am I " Nan Yar as an exercise as it means different

things in different languages.

I feel he meant by turning inwards one progresses inwardly to the Sakti and the

closer one gets the more one can feel it...It is that feeling that is Who am I?

not the words or exercise. It is that 'feeling' that answers the question, not

only of who am I but who is anything and everything....So Ramana wanted us to

search inwardly for the feeling as through the Sakti one arrives at Kevala

Samadhi and NirGuna.....Cheers Tony.

[Guest guest]

Dear sir,

 

If the seeker is *sincere enough*, he is sure to get the guidance just like Paul

Brunton was guided by Kanchi Mahaswami to Bhagavan. Afterall, *guru* is not a

*physical body in flesh*. It is a principle.

 

regs,

sriram

 

advaitin , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

>

> Dennis-ji Wrote:

> I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Self Inquiry’. If you are referring

>

> specifically to the technique advocated by Ramana Maharshi, then

>

> read the recent discussions on this topic during the last couple

>

> of weeks †" it is unlikely *on its own* to be sufficient. If you

>

> mean simply investigating on your own without the help of a

>

> teacher, then this is fraught with difficulties. Of course, many

>

> simply do not have access to a good teacher, in which case there

>

> is no choice in the matter (this was my own problem). If this is

>

> the case, then you should embark upon a long study of key

>

> scriptures with good commentaries and ask questions (e.g. in this

>

> group) if you do not understand something.

>

> |||||||||||||||||

>

> Namaste Dennis-ji,

> The Divine Sage Ramana got his title by acclamation, it was not

>

> self conferred as a marketing exercise. You are surely not so

>

> literal as to suppose that 'That thou art' is the answer to 'Who

>

> am I' or something of the sort. The considered response of the

>

> wise heads here was that Ramana was the real thing and a sufficient

>

> mentor, guide and guru.

>

> Though I have a living teacher (Sathya Sai Baba) I ask if to make

>

> it a sine qua non is to be unduly swayed by identification with

>

> this body. Ramakrishna showed that the forms of the great teachers

>

> were portals just as much now as when they were in the body. They

>

> are ahistorical, atemporal and eternal. To restrict their

>

> efficacy to the short span of years when they breathed lacks

>

> spiritual imagination. No reflection on you personally, it is a

>

> common cliche that needs to be examined. Why for instance are the

>

> samadhis of saints places of pilgrimage?

>

> Best Wishes,

> Michael.

>

[Guest guest]

Dennis, Thank you very much for your comments! They are very helpful.

Unfortunately I was in this trap of chasing higher spirtual states for a long time without being aware that I'm on the wrong track (I'm still in the trap, in the sense that the desire for states arise frequently, but at least most of the time aware of them).

I don't follow specific instructions. I'm very curious about my true nature, and the Jiva-Atman confusion, and I follow my curiousity. I treat it like an academic research in the sense that I like to investigate it from different angles, not be closed minded.

Sometimes it would be a question which arises, for example, why do I identify sensations as myself, and voices in the room as seperate from me. Sometimes, I feel like directing my attention towards conciousness and just stay there and rest. Sometimes I seek for a specific "place" in consciousness, and sometimes I just stay totally open.

I don't know if my method is good, it is just comfortable. I find that it is hard for me to commit to a one specific technique for a long time. In addition, though I wish to find one teacher to be devoted to, I always find myself "non-monogamic", changing teachers, preferring my inner guru. I really like a lot of teachers, but it hardly happens that I can say that "this is it" (probably because of my "control freak" and perfectionist personality).

It happend lately that I fell in love with one Neo-Advaita teacher, but unfortunately, his approach is not Self Inquiry exactly, so there is not enough support to my process and something is missing.

I do read texts of Classical Advaita (Yoga Vashista, for example), and of Neo-Advaita (only of those Neo-Advaita teachers who assumee gradual development by inquiring to the self. Similar to you, I have a hard time with Tony Parson's approach, though I find him inspiring). Being here, I have some will to deepen into the Advaita scriptures. So again, thank you for your advice.

 

Dear Kuntimaddi sadananda, thanks a lot for your response. It was very inspiring, and exactly what I needed to hear. I was glad to hear such an exact describtion about the greedy nature of the mind.

 

 

 

 

Dennis Waite <dwaiteadvaitin Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 1:33:25 PMRE: New Here, and questions about Self Inquiry

 

 

 

Hi,

Good to see that reading the book has brought you here!

Many seekers unfortunately believe wrongly that experiences are the aim; that somehow we can attain to a state wherein we experience permanent bliss and the feeling of oneness with everything. This is not what it is about at all. We each remain associated with these bodies until their death and consequently are aware of their ups and downs, pains and pleasures. What we are seeking is the knowledge that this is all mithyA; that the reality is non-dual and we are That. This knowledge is only assuredly gained through proper teaching, which really means finding a qualified guru and committing to studying with them for as long as it takes.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Self Inquiry’. If you are referring specifically to the technique advocated by Ramana Maharshi, then read the recent discussions on this topic during the last couple of weeks – it is unlikely *on its own* to be sufficient. If you mean simply investigating on your own without the help of a teacher, then this is fraught with difficulties. Of course, many simply do not have access to a good teacher, in which case there is no choice in the matter (this was my own problem). If this is the case, then you should embark upon a long study of key scriptures with good commentaries and ask questions (e.g. in this group) if you do not understand something.

You should also return to meditating regularly – and not look for results or become impatient! This is one of the key practices for mind preparation and is not intended on its own to lead to enlightenment.

Best wishes.

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin@ s.com [advaitin] On Behalf Of Self SeekerMonday, April 06, 2009 4:53 PMadvaitin@ s.com New Here, and questions about Self Inquiry

 

 

 

 

 

 

<<

 

I must admit that I feel some loss since I've started Self Inquiry. This body-mind misses all the higher states of bliss and peace produced directly by meditation. I know that chasing for higher states is an illusion, and that Self Inquiry is a right and gradual way to transcend/eliminate the persona, but I wonder - How can one know that he is on the right track when practicing Self Inquiry?

 

The fact is that after 3 years of practice I feel bad than ever in my spiritual journy, I feel imprisoned in my body-mind 24/7, the insights don't "hold", my mind is very active, and I can't meditate like before. It's been few months since there is no light (as if I used to have a connection to the divine, and now I'm detached), lots of identifications, there is unwillingness to surrender to unpleasant sensations, and a suffering, all the time. I'm afraid that I developed some conditions against the practice. I always expect certain things, and if they don't happen, I become depressed very quickly, and then my practice becomes more aggressive, which is worse (kind of a loop). Since I'm not interested in the mundane life at all, I kind of feel stuck, "not here and not there".

 

>>

[Guest guest]

Dear Dennisji

 

Self -inquiry prescribed by Sri,Raman Mahrshi is a good tool in the beginning of the pursuit of truth. But

seeker will find it inadequate to in latter stages. However, it creates lots of

doubts and confusion. The seeker has to

find the answers on his own through deeper reasoning, then all his doubts and

confusions will be cleared, and he will be able to move ahead in the path of

inquiry, and he will be able to reach his nondual destination.

The doubts and confusion in Self-Inquiry

The seeker has to overcome the doubts and confusion in in later stages in self inquiry, the seeker finds some doubts and

confusion, which cannot be overcome if inquiry practiced on the present format

prescribed in self inquiry book. As per my personal research the self-inquiry

in the present format will not yield any fruits.

If mind is same as Ataman, how can it

vanish--when the mind appears and disappears as Waking or dream?

 

How can one be certain when one leave the external world--when the person is

within the world?

 

 

Why leave the external world when everything is Brahman---when everything is

Brahman why crate division between the world and its perceiver?

 

How can the world alone cease to exist if one do not look at it—how can the

person remain without the world and where he will exist without the world?

 

Who has the subtle mind projecting through brain and senses? How can one see

his subtle mind?--when the brain also piece of the gross matter? ---then how

can the brain come into existence after the world

is created if the later depends on the brain.

 

 

Heart is idea created by mind, how the mind can emerge from it---when the heart

disappear along with the mind and reappears along with the mind, how the mind

emerge from it.

 

In deep sleep, swoon and trance, the mind turns inwards and enjoys its natural

state--if so why should one inquire if one gets Ataman in sleep. With drug one

can get sleep and peace or bliss.

 

IF sleep gives Brahman then why trouble with inquiry--better get it

through pills.

There are many seekers practicing inquiry for many years and waiting for

something mystical to happen, why nothing happens and why their inquiry does

not yield fruits.

 

Since

Mahrshi Ramana is not present physically to guide us, seeker to overcome these

obstacle in the path of inquiry on his own. with respect and regards

Santthosh

advaitin , "Dennis Waite" <dwaite wrote:>> Hi,> > Good to see that reading the book has brought you here! > > Many seekers unfortunately believe wrongly that experiences are the aim;> that somehow we can attain to a state wherein we experience permanent bliss> and the feeling of oneness with everything. This is not what it is about at> all. We each remain associated with these bodies until their death and> consequently are aware of their ups and downs, pains and pleasures. What we> are seeking is the knowledge that this is all mithyA; that the reality is> non-dual and we are That. This knowledge is only assuredly gained through> proper teaching, which really means finding a qualified guru and committing> to studying with them for as long as it takes. > > I'm not sure what you mean by 'Self Inquiry'. If you are referring> specifically to the technique advocated by Ramana Maharshi, then read the> recent discussions on this topic during the last couple of weeks - it is> unlikely *on its own* to be sufficient. If you mean simply investigating on> your own without the help of a teacher, then this is fraught with> difficulties. Of course, many simply do not have access to a good teacher,> in which case there is no choice in the matter (this was my own problem). If> this is the case, then you should embark upon a long study of key scriptures> with good commentaries and ask questions (e.g. in this group) if you do not> understand something.> > You should also return to meditating regularly - and not look for results or> become impatient! This is one of the key practices for mind preparation and> is not intended on its own to lead to enlightenment.> > Best wishes.> > Dennis> > > > advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf> Of Self Seeker> Monday, April 06, 2009 4:53 PM> advaitin > New Here, and questions about Self Inquiry> > > > < > I must admit that I feel some loss since I've started Self Inquiry. This> body-mind misses all the higher states of bliss and peace produced directly> by meditation. I know that chasing for higher states is an illusion, and> that Self Inquiry is a right and gradual way to transcend/eliminate the> persona, but I wonder - How can one know that he is on the right track when> practicing Self Inquiry?> > The fact is that after 3 years of practice I feel bad than ever in my> spiritual journy, I feel imprisoned in my body-mind 24/7, the insights don't> "hold", my mind is very active, and I can't meditate like before. It's been> few months since there is no light (as if I used to have a connection to the> divine, and now I'm detached), lots of identifications, there is> unwillingness to surrender to unpleasant sensations, and a suffering, all> the time. I'm afraid that I developed some conditions against the practice.> I always expect certain things, and if they don't happen, I become depressed> very quickly, and then my practice becomes more aggressive, which is worse> (kind of a loop). Since I'm not interested in the mundane life at all, I> kind of feel stuck, "not here and not there".> > >>>

[Guest guest]

Recently, in some posts I have seen comments about Sri Ramana and Self-Inquiry

which are not at all consistent with the teachings of the Sage of Arunachala.

 

When we speak without a clear understanding, it does not help anyone. Instead

there is risk of greater confusion.

 

Yours in Bhagavan

Harsha

 

advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " <santthoshkumaar wrote:

>

>

> Dear Dennisji

>

>

>

> Self -inquiry prescribed by Sri,Raman Mahrshi is a good tool in the

> beginning of the pursuit of truth. But seeker will find it inadequate to

> in latter stages. However, it creates lots of doubts and confusion. The

> seeker has to find the answers on his own through deeper reasoning, then

> all his doubts and confusions will be cleared, and he will be able to

> move ahead in the path of inquiry, and he will be able to reach his

> nondual destination.

>

> The doubts and confusion in Self-Inquiry

>

> The seeker has to overcome the doubts and confusion in in later stages

> in self inquiry, the seeker finds some doubts and confusion, which

> cannot be overcome if inquiry practiced on the present format prescribed

> in self inquiry book. As per my personal research the self-inquiry in

> the present format will not yield any fruits.

>

> If mind is same as Ataman, how can it vanish--when the mind appears and

> disappears as Waking or dream?

>

> How can one be certain when one leave the external world--when the

> person is within the world?

>

>

> Why leave the external world when everything is Brahman---when

> everything is Brahman why crate division between the world and its

> perceiver?

>

> How can the world alone cease to exist if one do not look at it—how

> can the person remain without the world and where he will exist without

> the world?

>

> Who has the subtle mind projecting through brain and senses? How can one

> see his subtle mind?--when the brain also piece of the gross matter?

> ---then how can the brain come into existence after the world

> is created if the later depends on the brain.

>

>

> Heart is idea created by mind, how the mind can emerge from it---when

> the heart disappear along with the mind and reappears along with the

> mind, how the mind emerge from it.

>

> In deep sleep, swoon and trance, the mind turns inwards and enjoys its

> natural state--if so why should one inquire if one gets Ataman in sleep.

> With drug one can get sleep and peace or bliss.

>

>

> IF sleep gives Brahman then why trouble with inquiry--better get it

> through pills.

> There are many seekers practicing inquiry for many years and waiting for

> something mystical to happen, why nothing happens and why their inquiry

> does not yield fruits.

>

>

> Since Mahrshi Ramana is not present physically to guide us, seeker to

> overcome these obstacle in the path of inquiry on his own.

>

>

> with respect and regards

>

>

> Santthosh

[Guest guest]

Dear Dennis-ji:

 

I agree with many things that you say.

 

As you may know, Sri Ramana often said that the Guru is not the body.

 

You are right that the proper context and maturity of mind is needed for

self-inquiry.

 

Sada-ji and others have pointed out that Sri Ramana's teaching is not different

than Advaita. Shyam-ji has quoted Sri Ramana on the Mahavakyas. Sri Ramana used

to say that the most mature aspirants, upon hearing the truth, from the mouth of

the Guru, immediately realize their Self. For others, ripening is needed.

 

Can someone be enlightened hearing the Guru say once, " Thou Art That " or " Aham

Brhamasmi " .

 

Yes, why not?

 

Most have to reflect on what they have heard and meditate deeply.

 

Each person finds their own path and Guru.

 

Once the Guru has explained the pure teachings and the aspirant has grasped the

essence of Upanishads firmly, then Self-Inquiry works more effectively.

 

But everything helps everything else. The only firm rules are in our mind. And

it is the very mind itself that must surrender to the Lord in order for

Realization to take place. Even the surrender is not up to us. The Lord allows

it when the time is right.

 

That is why Upanishads say (Mundka Upanishad), that Self cannot be gained by the

Veda, nor by understanding, nor by much learning. He whom the Self chooses, by

him the Self can be gained.

 

Ultimately Grace plays the most important role in Self-Realization.

 

Namaste and love

 

Yours in Bhagavan

Harsha

 

 

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

>

> Dear Michael-ji,

>

> As I already said not very long ago, I acknowledge Ramana as ‘the real

thing’ and *while he lived* undoubtedly a ‘sufficient mentor, guide and

guru’. I think the problem arises now when a seeker takes the ‘Who am I’

enquiry as a stand-alone exercise, out of the context of all his other teaching

and without the benefit of a ‘mentor, guide and guru’ and expects, with that

alone, to become enlightened. I suggest that this is most unlikely. And I

further suggest that Ramana himself would agree with me.

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Dennis

>

>

>

> advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of

ombhurbhuva

> Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:30 PM

> advaitin

> Re: New Here, and questions about Self Inquiry

>

>

>

> <<The considered response of the

>

> wise heads here was that Ramana was the real thing and a sufficient

>

> mentor, guide and guru.>>

>

[Guest guest]

that is true, harsha-ji...TAT TVAM ASI ...--- On Thu, 4/9/09, harshaimtm wrote:harshaimtm Re: New Here, and questions about Self Inquiryadvaitin Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 7:26 PM

 

Dear Dennis-ji:

 

I agree with many things that you say.

 

As you may know, Sri Ramana often said that the Guru is not the body.

 

You are right that the proper context and maturity of mind is needed for self-inquiry.

 

Sada-ji and others have pointed out that Sri Ramana's teaching is not different than Advaita. Shyam-ji has quoted Sri Ramana on the Mahavakyas. Sri Ramana used to say that the most mature aspirants, upon hearing the truth, from the mouth of the Guru, immediately realize their Self. For others, ripening is needed.

 

Can someone be enlightened hearing the Guru say once, "Thou Art That" or "Aham Brhamasmi".

 

Yes, why not?

 

Most have to reflect on what they have heard and meditate deeply.

 

Each person finds their own path and Guru.

 

Once the Guru has explained the pure teachings and the aspirant has grasped the essence of Upanishads firmly, then Self-Inquiry works more effectively.

 

But everything helps everything else. The only firm rules are in our mind. And it is the very mind itself that must surrender to the Lord in order for Realization to take place. Even the surrender is not up to us. The Lord allows it when the time is right.

 

That is why Upanishads say (Mundka Upanishad), that Self cannot be gained by the Veda, nor by understanding, nor by much learning. He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self can be gained.

 

Ultimately Grace plays the most important role in Self-Realization.

 

Namaste and love

 

Yours in Bhagavan

Harsha

 

advaitin@ s.com, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite wrote:

>

> Dear Michael-ji,

>

> As I already said not very long ago, I acknowledge Ramana as ‘the real thing’ and *while he lived* undoubtedly a ‘sufficient mentor, guide and guru’. I think the problem arises now when a seeker takes the ‘Who am I’ enquiry as a stand-alone exercise, out of the context of all his other teaching and without the benefit of a ‘mentor, guide and guru’ and expects, with that alone, to become enlightened. I suggest that this is most unlikely. And I further suggest that Ramana himself would agree with me.

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Dennis

>

>

>

> advaitin@ s.com [advaitin@ s.com] On Behalf Of ombhurbhuva

> Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:30 PM

> advaitin@ s.com

> Re: New Here, and questions about Self Inquiry

>

>

>

> <<The considered response of the

>

> wise heads here was that Ramana was the real thing and a sufficient

>

> mentor, guide and guru.>>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

>

> Dennis-ji Wrote:

> I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Self Inquiry’. If you are referring

>

> specifically to the technique advocated by Ramana Maharshi, then

>

> read the recent discussions on this topic during the last couple

>

> of weeks †" it is unlikely *on its own* to be sufficient. If you

>

> mean simply investigating on your own without the help of a

>

> teacher, then this is fraught with difficulties.

 

Namaste M,

 

I really did not have a teacher or a guru. I bought a book of Upanishads and the

Gita from a Theosophical Society bookshop, in Sydney and took off from there. I

did all the usual studies of Bhagavata Purana, Sankara's works etc etc. In fact

the book that woke me up was 'Be as you are'...Ramana edited by David Godman. To

be truthful it took me at least, three readings to grasp all that was in there.

I then read the Gems, Gita, Letters from the Ashram and other works based on

Ramana.

So although I regard the late Ramana as an important Jnani I didn't have a

living guru teaching me anything. I did follow a certain guru that turned out to

less than true, but his teachings were so general, contradictory and eclectic,

that they were based at very early seekers on the path. Combine that with his

less than laudatory personal behaviour and I turned away from the 'Guru

Business'; And more into the teachings of Ramana.

In fact the teaching of Ramana that resonated with me was Ajativada, and the

method of Self Enquiry 'Who am I' resulted in certain blissful 'experiences'

which I knew to be just that. However taking this into my mind, I found that non

conscious meditation was the best adjunct to 'Who am I', for that is where it

took me and still does. Any bliss occurs on coming down, so to speak, and only

then if the mind is conscious as it descends the planes...ecstasy and bliss seem

to be memories only.....

 

So I suppose Ramana is my teacher through his statements and edited books on

him...I don't worship him as he is a Jivanmukta and not here anymore, and wasn't

here for most of his life. Also worshipping him would deflect from the non

duality of his ultimate teachings. I haven't got the quote in front of me but it

had a profound effect....If a God made the world then let him take care of it or

words to that effect....Cheers Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " harshaimtm " wrote:

>

> Dear Dennis-ji:

>

> I agree with many things that you say.

>

> As you may know, Sri Ramana often said that the Guru is not the body.

>

> You are right that the proper context and maturity of mind is needed for

self-inquiry.

>

> Sada-ji and others have pointed out that Sri Ramana's teaching is not

different than Advaita. Shyam-ji has quoted Sri Ramana on the Mahavakyas. Sri

Ramana used to say that the most mature aspirants, upon hearing the truth, from

the mouth of the Guru, immediately realize their Self. For others, ripening is

needed.

>

> Can someone be enlightened hearing the Guru say once, " Thou Art That " or " Aham

Brhamasmi " .

>

> Yes, why not?

>

> Most have to reflect on what they have heard and meditate deeply.

>

> Each person finds their own path and Guru.

>

> Once the Guru has explained the pure teachings and the aspirant has grasped

the essence of Upanishads firmly, then Self-Inquiry works more effectively.

>

> But everything helps everything else. The only firm rules are in our mind. And

it is the very mind itself that must surrender to the Lord in order for

Realization to take place. Even the surrender is not up to us. The Lord allows

it when the time is right.

>

> That is why Upanishads say (Mundka Upanishad), that Self cannot be gained by

the Veda, nor by understanding, nor by much learning. He whom the Self chooses,

by him the Self can be gained.

>

> Ultimately Grace plays the most important role in Self-Realization.

>

> Namaste and love

>

> Yours in Bhagavan

> Harsha

 

Namaste Harsha,

 

Below is a quote from the creation hymn in the Rig Veda, which in itself

questions the 'knowing'. The knowing that 'God' may not know who created the

world. There is also the inference that if he doesn't know then he cannot be the

ultimate truth, or we have NirGuna who doesn't know, for knowing needs a

mind----with its gunas.

Hence Ramana's statement on taking care of the world is a reflection of a very

ancient idea hoary with age....Grace is of course Karma for there is nobody to

give Grace as 'God' within creation doesn't do as such. It reminds me of the

Lords Prayer, which I always thought would be better written...'Our karma which

art in consciousness'. As Ramana says prarabda karma can be overcome by

realisation. Again Harsha it depends which path of Ramana one follows and that

depends on one's own personality, preferences and awareness....Did a 'God'

create the world or did it never happen? Not even the appearance for that would

need the duality of a mind...........Where is appearance in Sahaja Samadhi? I

wish I could give the right quote about, if God made the world etc...somebody on

Harshasatsangh actually quoted the words verbatim in January

sometime..........Cheers Tony.

 

 

Whence this creation has arisen

– perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not –

the One who looks down on it,

in the highest heaven, only He knows

or perhaps He does not know.

 

 

---

 

Translation by Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty. From the Book " The Rig Veda

-Anthology "

[Guest guest]

Very rightly said.

To the extent I understod in Ramana's Self enquiry the role of mind is limited

only to the extent of inverting it in to 'I' conciousness. Whenever

thought(mind) arises again one should use inquiry and so on. Once one is in

consciouness there is no role for the mind. Sri Ramana says that the role of the

seeker is only up to the stage of pushing mind into consciouness. From there

it is taken over by Him. I think even AHAM BRAHMASMI concept also results in the

same state ( when it is not a thought) When there is no external guru surrender

to the inner Guru and if necessary by His Grace external guru also would be

found.

 

podury

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin , " harshaimtm " wrote:

>

> Recently, in some posts I have seen comments about Sri Ramana and Self-Inquiry

which are not at all consistent with the teachings of the Sage of Arunachala.

>

> When we speak without a clear understanding, it does not help anyone. Instead

there is risk of greater confusion.

>

> Yours in Bhagavan

> Harsha

>

> advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " <santthoshkumaar@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Dennisji

> >

> >

> >

> > Self -inquiry prescribed by Sri,Raman Mahrshi is a good tool in the

> > beginning of the pursuit of truth. But seeker will find it inadequate to

> > in latter stages. However, it creates lots of doubts and confusion. The

> > seeker has to find the answers on his own through deeper reasoning, then

> > all his doubts and confusions will be cleared, and he will be able to

> > move ahead in the path of inquiry, and he will be able to reach his

> > nondual destination.

> >

> > The doubts and confusion in Self-Inquiry

> >

> > The seeker has to overcome the doubts and confusion in in later stages

> > in self inquiry, the seeker finds some doubts and confusion, which

> > cannot be overcome if inquiry practiced on the present format prescribed

> > in self inquiry book. As per my personal research the self-inquiry in

> > the present format will not yield any fruits.

> >

> > If mind is same as Ataman, how can it vanish--when the mind appears and

> > disappears as Waking or dream?

> >

> > How can one be certain when one leave the external world--when the

> > person is within the world?

> >

> >

> > Why leave the external world when everything is Brahman---when

> > everything is Brahman why crate division between the world and its

> > perceiver?

> >

> > How can the world alone cease to exist if one do not look at it—how

> > can the person remain without the world and where he will exist without

> > the world?

> >

> > Who has the subtle mind projecting through brain and senses? How can one

> > see his subtle mind?--when the brain also piece of the gross matter?

> > ---then how can the brain come into existence after the world

> > is created if the later depends on the brain.

> >

> >

> > Heart is idea created by mind, how the mind can emerge from it---when

> > the heart disappear along with the mind and reappears along with the

> > mind, how the mind emerge from it.

> >

> > In deep sleep, swoon and trance, the mind turns inwards and enjoys its

> > natural state--if so why should one inquire if one gets Ataman in sleep.

> > With drug one can get sleep and peace or bliss.

> >

> >

> > IF sleep gives Brahman then why trouble with inquiry--better get it

> > through pills.

> > There are many seekers practicing inquiry for many years and waiting for

> > something mystical to happen, why nothing happens and why their inquiry

> > does not yield fruits.

> >

> >

> > Since Mahrshi Ramana is not present physically to guide us, seeker to

> > overcome these obstacle in the path of inquiry on his own.

> >

> >

> > with respect and regards

> >

> >

> > Santthosh

>

[Guest guest]

Dear list mates,

 

Many

seekers in this path of inquiry is still struggling even after long years and

waiting for something to happen. Even after reading and inquiring deeply enough,

still they are unable progress further. Even

they are unable to get any benefit in their spiritual pursuit through self –

inquiry. And also they are unable to give up the self inquiry due to the

attraction of Ramana. Many seekers end

up with using "Who am `I'" as

mantra and become stagnant without being aware of the purpose of the

self-inquiry.

I

was surprised to know after reading the interview of Mr. Sivapraksh Pillai who

expressed that even after 50 long years he was unable to achieve his goal

through inquiry, hats off to his sincere and honest statement. It is very

difficult to get masters like Maharshi

Ramana, Papaji or Nisrgdutt Maharaj to get guidance in the present world.

In

my honest opinion with all the due respect to every soul which was involved in

recording and publishing the self inquiry, which is greatest treasure, and

which opens the golden gate to the

seeker to enter into spiritual world, from religious world. Still there is lots

confusion and doubts which are impossible to get answer the way the inquiry is

presented in the books. But one will be able to overcome the same after lots of

research. But it is impossible to do research in the present framework of the

Self-inquiry. Since everyone is expecting and waiting for some mystic

experience to happen and refuse to verify and accept the truth, because of

there conservative outlook.

Even the intellectual- class, who have

authored many books are viewed and judged Sri, Ramana on mystic point of view

were unable to deliver goods due to their inherited religious background. Sri,

Ramana was mystic for the mass, but he was Gnani for the class.

Religious

based Advitha is nothing to do with spiritual Advitha .Original Advitha was

modified on the base of Vedas and introduced to suit the mass mind set by Sri,

Sankara to uplift the Sanatana Dharma[Hinduism] which was in ruins in the clutches

of Buddhism and Jainism. Even Sri, Sankara also says the religion, scriptures

and yoga are not the means to self realization. Spiritual Advitha of Sankara

was lost in time, but we find traces of it in the scriptures. Spiritual Advitha

is nothing to do with religious Advitha, since the aim of spiritual Advitha is

to acquire only nondual wisdom.

It also becomes evident that different people

who have interviewed Raman at different time had different back ground and mind

set. Therefore, it is necessary to bifurcate religious views of Sri Raman from

his spiritual views to get the hidden essence of Sri Ramana's teaching.

S.S.

COHEN, Nisrgdutta Maharaj, Poonjaji and Osho`s books are more helpful in

pursuit of truth. But any way one has to

do his own home work and research. I find not only inquiry, but reasoning is

most important in unfolding the mystery.

Nisargadutt

Maharaj clears many doubts and hurdles but still one cannot reach the ultimate

truth since there are little confusions for which the seeker will not find

reasonable reasoning.

Many

seekers have done excellent research on Raman but still there are many hidden

massages which can be unfolded if the inquiry is well directed if reason is used.

Seeker cannot sit expecting some mystic

experience to happen and which will unfold the mystery and helps one to

experience the bliss.

All

the mystic experience is based on yoga and religion. Yoga is necessary for

preparatory stages and yoga is not means for self realization. Religion is used

in the past as a tool condition the mind, to be, to behave, to believe, to live

and create its own pedigree of mindset to

help the society to live in harmony with its own code of conduct.

Religion is nothing to with spirituality. Spirituality is the tool to unfold

the mystery of the mind. Therefore religion and god or guru glorification,

scriptural studies are not necessary in pursuit of truth.

Inquiry with reason on the proper (true) base

only will help the seeker to unfold the mystery of the mind or human

experience.

The

conservative religious background in which every seeker is sentimentally

involved is the main hurdle and obstacle in realizing the truth. Therefore it

is necessary for everyone to know how they are hurdle and create fatter in

truth pursuit. It is necessary for the seeker of the truth to have the courage

to accept the truth and reject the untruth when the truth is unfolded through

inquiry and reasoning and analysis. Ramana`s and Sri Sankara`s grace will pour

only when the seeker accepts the truth and rejects the untruth.

The

main hurdle one has to cross when one inquires "WHO AM `I'" and proceeds

further as per the instruction in the book, one finds it difficult in the

latter stage and finds something is inadequate and wrong somewhere. Therefore

it is necessary to find and remove the obstacles to reach the goal.

When

one gets the answer I am not the body then the inquiry ends there. If `I' is

not the body then one cannot inquire on the physical base. Since the mind, ego

senses whatever one experienced as a person of the world, god, religion,

scriptures and whatever seen and known loses its meaning because `I' itself

cannot exist without the physical body.

Therefore, there is no meaning in carrying out inquiry on the physical

identity saying I am not the senses, I am not the mind, and I am not this I am

not that etc. because along with body the mind sense and ego and the physical

experience of the world is rejected along with the physical body. When the

physical body is not `I' there is no entity to practice Self enquiry. Then if

you accept there is nothing further, then it becomes Buddha's emptiness. But it

cannot be empty because still something remains to say it is empty as Goudpada declares. Therefore it becomes difficult to inquire on

the physical base.

Paul Brunton modified the inquiry to `What am `I'. But still the enquiry: "What

am `I'?" is half way.

·

Then

"What is `I'?" takes the seeker further and he become aware of the fact that

`I' is not "Self".

·

"But

what is `I'? When `I' is not "Self" then

"What is `I'".

After many years of practice of

self- inquiry I came to firm conclusion that the inquiry alone will not yield

any fruits inquiry with reasoning and analysis will take the seeker towards reality

of the true state of the mind.

 

·

`I'

becomes the whole experience of the universe including the body

·

If

`I' is not `Self then what is `Self'

·

"What

is `Self"?

·

The

self is the substance and witness of the universe

·

What

is the substance?

·

The

substance is the formless non-dual Ataman or spirit, which is the formless clay

of the mind.

The main purpose of inquiry is

to diverting the attention of the mind from the experience of duality to its

formless non-dual true nature.

When the self is in its formless non-dual true

nature it is Ataman. When the self [Ataman or spirit] is in the illusion it is duality

or `I'. Therefore, the seeker of the

truth has to start with "Self –Inquiry" because it is the first step. But

inquiry alone will not yield fruits; there is no use of waiting in vain for

some mystic experience to happen. The wisdom will not dawn without reasoning.

Until and unless the seeking

base is rectified the inquiry will not go further. This is my observation and

conviction. Inquiry with reasoning and analyzing will definitely yield results.

Therefore, keeping all these points in mind removing all the fetters and

barricades in self inquiry will help the seeker to realize the reality of his true

existence in lesser time and effort in this very life.

Deeper personal research is

necessary in this matter. The conservative intellectual class who only accept

what they have inherited, what they know, what they have read and what they

have accepted as ultimate truth, and they don't have humility to verify and

accept the truth as truth. Therefore, there is no use of arguing with

such mind sets, which yields no fruits.

The seekers in the path inquiry

have to do their own homework and deeper

research by removing all fetters and obstacles in the path of inquiry and move

a head.

By using reason on true base one will find it much interesting and he will be able to realize the fact that t `I' is

not the self and there is no use of searching the truth on the base of `I' which yields no fruits. And self –realization

is possible through properly well directed inquiry and reasoning without

physical practice but through mental effort by deeper reasoning and analysis.

One has to witness the duality on

the base of the formless witness to realize the witness is apart and unaffected

by the illusion which appears and disappears as three states. This is only my

personal research, please ignore if any

of you find my views are incorrect.

With respect and regards

Santthosh