Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Devotee :  Swamiji, how can we sublimate desires? Swami Krishnanandaji ( Divine Life Soceity ) : You will never be able to sublimate the desires until that which they seek is given to them. The important point is how you will give them what they want. The manner of supplying their demand is your wisdom. You cannot suppress a desire; no desire can be buried down. If you suppress it, it will create further trouble. You have to fulfil it, but how you fulfil it is the wisdom of the seeker. Sometimes you may supply its need even by not giving it literally what it wants. If you literally start supplying all its demands, then it will be a very difficult problem. Sublimation is different from fulfilment. Fulfilment is a direct sensual process, whereas sublimation is a spiritual integration. The mind wants some particular things, not all things at the same time. The mind does not want the whole world to be given to it. Nobody asks for the whole world; so every desire is intriguing in its working. When you are prepared to give it the entire thing, it doesn’t want it; it will want only certain particular chosen things. This is the sign of lack of wisdom behind any kind of desire. There are simple desires, strong desires, permissible desires, depleting desires. Desires which deplete your energy should not be fulfiled. Those which are harmless, like wanting to take a cup of tea in the cold weather, will not harm you in any way; but there are other dangerous desires which may exhaust you completely and make you weak. Such desires should not be fulfiled. From the point of view of a sadhaka (a spiritual seeker), gradually the mind should be educated to feel satisfied with the whole, rather than a part. If you ask for particular things, you will never have an end for these desires, because today you will get this particular thing, and you feel that you are satisfied; tomorrow the very same mind, like a dacoit, will want another thing. If you start supplying the demands of a dacoit, today he will want your purse, tomorrow your house, the next day your land and, finally, he may want your life. So, you cannot go on satisfying the highwayman. Desires are such things, and you should educate them. Introduce educational ways of thinking, holistic thinking. Don’t give just particular things to the mind, but try to give wholesome things. Finally, nothing can satisfy you, except God Himself. All other desires are futile, and they will only bind you into more and more troubles. You must educate the mind to have trust in God and feel satisfied with the beauty of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Dear Sri Ramesh, Namaste. Thanks a lot for a nice piece of work. > From the point of view of a sadhaka (a spiritual seeker), gradually the mind > should be educated to feel satisfied with the whole, rather than a part. If > you ask for particular things, you will never have an end for these desires, > because today you will get this particular thing, and you feel that you are > satisfied; tomorrow the very same mind, like a dacoit, will want another > thing. If you start supplying the demands of a dacoit, today he will want > your purse, tomorrow your house, the next day your land and, finally, he may > want your life. So, you cannot go on satisfying the highwayman. This is what is stated in the Shastras as Viveka and Vairagya. Many of us can easily identify the desires but also fall prey to them. It means that they all have Viveka. But, vairagya is lacking. Vairagya can be developed by thinking of the fleeting nature of the vishya bhogaas. Holding on to God or Brahman, one develops good Samskara. For getting good samskara, a regular routine of spiritual exercises are required. This routine itself will protect a sadhaka during the lack hours. This is what I have understood. Learned members may throw some more light. With regards, Anupam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 pardon me,  In Gita, there is a statement  Dharma avirudha kamyosmi.....  how does that line goes with the explanation given in this thread pl?   namaskaram --- On Mon, 20/4/09, ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv wrote: ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv Desire ..A conversation advaitin Monday, 20 April, 2009, 9:36 AM Devotee :  Swamiji, how can we sublimate desires? Swami Krishnanandaji ( Divine Life Soceity ) : You will never be able to sublimate the desires until that which they seek is given to them. The important point is how you will give them what they want. The manner of supplying their demand is your wisdom. You cannot suppress a desire; no desire can be buried down. If you suppress it, it will create further trouble. You have to fulfil it, but how you fulfil it is the wisdom of the seeker. Sometimes you may supply its need even by not giving it literally what it wants. If you literally start supplying all its demands, then it will be a very difficult problem. Sublimation is different from fulfilment. Fulfilment is a direct sensual process, whereas sublimation is a spiritual integration. The mind wants some particular things, not all things at the same time. The mind does not want the whole world to be given to it. Nobody asks for the whole world; so every desire is intriguing in its working. When you are prepared to give it the entire thing, it doesn’t want it; it will want only certain particular chosen things. This is the sign of lack of wisdom behind any kind of desire. There are simple desires, strong desires, permissible desires, depleting desires. Desires which deplete your energy should not be fulfiled. Those which are harmless, like wanting to take a cup of tea in the cold weather, will not harm you in any way; but there are other dangerous desires which may exhaust you completely and make you weak. Such desires should not be fulfiled. From the point of view of a sadhaka (a spiritual seeker), gradually the mind should be educated to feel satisfied with the whole, rather than a part. If you ask for particular things, you will never have an end for these desires, because today you will get this particular thing, and you feel that you are satisfied; tomorrow the very same mind, like a dacoit, will want another thing. If you start supplying the demands of a dacoit, today he will want your purse, tomorrow your house, the next day your land and, finally, he may want your life. So, you cannot go on satisfying the highwayman. Desires are such things, and you should educate them. Introduce educational ways of thinking, holistic thinking. Don’t give just particular things to the mind, but try to give wholesome things. Finally, nothing can satisfy you, except God Himself. All other desires are futile, and they will only bind you into more and more troubles. You must educate the mind to have trust in God and feel satisfied with the beauty of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Dear Sri Ram Mohan ji, > In Gita, there is a statement > Dharma avirudha kamyosmi..... > how does that line goes with the explanation given in this thread pl? In the above context, I shall tell what I have understood. Learned members of the group may correct me and enlighten me wherever I go wrong. In the Gita it is said: Dharma-avirudho bhuteshu kaamosmi. kaama or desire is accepted definitely. Not all should become sannyasins, neither all are eligible for that. But, the desire / kaama must be preceded by dharma. The kaama must not be anti-dharma. That is what is said: dharma-avirudha kaama. It means that each and every kaama must be analyzed, checked and then only can be experienced. Checking and analyzing essentially constitute viveka and vairagya. By doing so, we give importance only to Viveka and Vairagya and not to desires. What is given importance will take over the other one gradually and tries for Parama purushartha. Fighting with desires and dismissing them using viveka and vairagya is an early struggle that every aspirant must undergo. It may be that one gets tired of it; but, in the long run, one will get out of it - surely. What will happen if we dont check and analyze the desires? In the introduction of Gita Bhashya, Sri Shankara says: ...... because of experiencing desire relentlessly for long time, viveka or the discriminative faculty of a man does out. Because of that, adharma or non-virtue takes an upper hand over the virtue ...... With regards, Anupam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Namaste, May be a study of the pururShaarthaas would help in understanding and assimilating the concept " desire " in Vedanta and as well as in life. Understanding puruShaartha -  the collective Sanskrit name for all human purposefulness -  puruSha – human being -  artha – purpose - puruShaartha – that for which a human being longs and struggles for in his/her entire janma. this is unique to human beings alone. This unique to human beings alone. - The four-fold human aims (puruShaartha) in life are: - dharma, artha, kaama and mokSha. dharma –  means ethical standards. -         the goal of confirming one’s behaviour -         to scriptuarally sanctioned ethical norms -         in order to obtain merit(pnya) or avoid demerit(papa) -         In this life or the next. -         Or for the one who is not an adherent to any particular scriptural sanctions -         dharma is simply the universal set of ethical standards mandated by human freewill -         and shaped by one’s wish to be treated in a certain manner by one’s fellow human beings -         Here it refers to harmony in relationships, -          Friendship, sharing and caring -         Helping another person. -         Dharma accounts for your maturity.  artha – means security -         the goal of acquiring all the things -         which one thinks will make one secure: o      money, liquid assets, stocks o      property, possessions o      power, influence, relationships o      name and fame -         that which gives you any kind of security -         Emotional, economical or social. -         Such accomplishments boosts one’s ego -         Therefore also provide some security for the ego. -         Forms of seeking security may vary with each individual at a given time -         That he or she is seeking security is common to all.  kaama – means pleasures -         the goal of enjoying -         the varieties of pleasures life affords o      Any mind pleasing escape including travel o      physical comforts – home and bodily comforts o      sensory delights – from seafood to ice cream onwards - or intellectual pleasures o      Intellectual pleasures – derived from playing certain games, solving puzzles or riddles or studying certain bodies of knowledge. o      Aesthetic pleasures – seeing the stars on a beautiful night, enjoying the sunrise, playing with a child, listening to music or enjoying anything artistic -         anything that satisfy your senses -         that pleases your mind -         that touches your heart -         That evokes in you a certain appreciation is kaama.  mokSha – means liberation -         It is a goal of discovering freedom -         Freedom from the hands of time -         Freedom from change -         Freedom from age/ aging -         Freedom from death -         Freedom from grief -         Freedom from loss -         An escape from a never ending sense of adequacy -         An escape from a never ending sense of incompleteness. -         Freedom from all form of limitations -         Freedom from the desire to be rid of desire itself.   Where does Self-knowledge or Atmajnaanam or tattvajnaanam fit in from the stand point of pruShaarthas? -         does not fit in into dharma or artha or kaama -         neither mandated by scriptures for the sake of obtaining merit(puNya) -         nor for the avoidance of demerit(papa) -         nor is it common sense ethical standard serving the interest of freewilled, sel-conscious beings interacting with one another -         therefore the purpose of Self-knowledge is not to serve scriptural or common sense ethics(dharma) -         does not result in the gain of securities(artha) -         does not result in the gain of (kaama) -         does not produce possessions or pleasures because actions and efforts are reqired to gain securities and pleasures. -         Not even the knowledge of Truth can produce artha or kaama though particular knowledge shapes the effort.  Where then does Self-Knowledge belong or fit in or serve the purpose? -         There is one category left that is mokSha - liberation. -         Self-knowledge serves the purpose of mokSha. Once we understand the pururShaarthas, its left to every individual to fix his /her goal in life - which is called pururShaarthanishcaya. when this is done vedanta study will become meaningful. PranaamsLakshmi Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all. Respected Members and Readers, Thus have I heard: What is a desire? It is a thought or feeling. Do you know the appearance of that thought? I know that such a thought has arisen . Is that thought existing now? No. It is not there.It has vanished. With the disappearance of that thought have you also disappeared? No. I continue to exist. Cognize that principle within you whose existence is not AFFECTED by the presence or absence of the thought. REMAIN AS THAT PRINCIPLE. I quote an ancient Shloka. please relate the thought-position of the shloka to yourself within yourself and by yourself. QUOTE: 'Who then is God?' 'The witness of the mind.' 'My mind is witnessed by myself, the soul.' 'So you are God.' The Scriptures also state There is but one God, Witness of the All. Hidden in all Creation, Absolute, Pervading All, The Inner-Self of all. [supplement to Forty verses on Reality; verse 6] UNQUOTE. Further, I advise you to study Matra 2-4 of Kena upanishad and Sri Shankara's commrntary thereupon, in depth and realize the fact contained in that mantra.That will put an end to all psychological conflicts and bestow Self-Knowledge. - THE END OF DIALOGUE - With warm and respectful regards, Sreenivasa Murthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 advaitin , " narayana145 " <narayana145 wrote: > > > H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy > Pranams to all. > > Respected Members and Readers, > > Thus have I heard: > > What is a desire? > > It is a thought or feeling. > > Do you know the appearance of that thought? > > I know that such a thought has arisen . > > Is that thought existing now? > > No. It is not there.It has vanished. > > With the disappearance of that thought have you also > disappeared? > > No. I continue to exist. Namaste,IMO, Desire is as real as creation as it is the force of creation. So as creation is unreal and an illusion so is desire. However to give it some validity for arguments sake--it is an emotion driven by instinct and thought reactions. The animals are full of desires that are useful to them, such as food and procreation. For humans we have the innate instinctual desires of our subtle bodies plus we have the desires created by thought. The same desires that create anger when frustrated........So it is an illusory motive force within the delusion of creation....it is of the mind. However with humans it is much about ego desire and satisfaction as well...It is the chain that binds us.............Cheers Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 It has been said that we must replace desire with the Desire of desires .. that is the Desire to be ONE with the ONE... love ramesh --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: Tony OClery <aoclery Re: Desire ..A conversation advaitin Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 1:29 AM advaitin@ s.com, " narayana145 " <narayana145@ ...> wrote: > > > H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy > Pranams to all. > > Respected Members and Readers, > > Thus have I heard: > > What is a desire? > > It is a thought or feeling. > > Do you know the appearance of that thought? > > I know that such a thought has arisen . > > Is that thought existing now? > > No. It is not there.It has vanished. > > With the disappearance of that thought have you also > disappeared? > > No. I continue to exist. Namaste,IMO, Desire is as real as creation as it is the force of creation. So as creation is unreal and an illusion so is desire. However to give it some validity for arguments sake--it is an emotion driven by instinct and thought reactions. The animals are full of desires that are useful to them, such as food and procreation. For humans we have the innate instinctual desires of our subtle bodies plus we have the desires created by thought. The same desires that create anger when frustrated.. ......So it is an illusory motive force within the delusion of creation.... it is of the mind. However with humans it is much about ego desire and satisfaction as well...It is the chain that binds us.......... ...Cheers Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 advaitin , ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv wrote: > > It has been said that we must replace desire with the Desire of desires .. that is the Desire to be ONE with the ONE... > > love > > ramesh Namaste, That is a step in pratyahara/ekagratha but it is still the same-----a desire. Even the Desire for Moksha must be given up, for it accepts a false premise in the first place.........Real saranagathi is the route---Who am I?..............Cheers Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Pranams Tony.. Just a few words...An intense desire /need for Saranagathi must be felt , right ? love ramesh --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: Tony OClery <aoclery Re: Desire ..A conversation advaitin Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 10:10 PM advaitin@ s.com, ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv@ ...> wrote: > > It has been said that we must replace desire with the Desire of desires .. that is the Desire to be ONE with the ONE... > > love > > ramesh Namaste, That is a step in pratyahara/ekagrath a but it is still the same-----a desire. Even the Desire for Moksha must be given up, for it accepts a false premise in the first place....... ..Real saranagathi is the route---Who am I?.......... .....Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Hari Om, According to the AV tradition, intense desire for moksha is the key to success; to my understanding, all of sAdhana cAtushTaya is just to convert the intense_desire to burning_desire for liberation. It can't be given up before all other desires are given up and then there is no need for it to be given up, it will drop off on its own when jnAna dawns. Only a jnAni will not burn in such a desire. gurorarpaNamastu, --Praveen R. Bhat /* Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known! [br.Up. 4.5.15] */ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Well said... Pranams ramesh --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Praveen R. Bhat <bhatpraveen wrote: Praveen R. Bhat <bhatpraveen Re: Re: Desire ..A conversation advaitin Thursday, April 23, 2009, 10:48 AM Hari Om, According to the AV tradition, intense desire for moksha is the key to success; to my understanding, all of sAdhana cAtushTaya is just to convert the intense_desire to burning_desire for liberation. It can't be given up before all other desires are given up and then there is no need for it to be given up, it will drop off on its own when jnAna dawns. Only a jnAni will not burn in such a desire. gurorarpaNamastu, --Praveen R. Bhat /* Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known! [br.Up. 4.5.15] */ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 advaitin , ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv wrote: > > Pranams Tony.. > > Just a few words...An intense desire /need for Saranagathi must be felt , right ? > > love > > ramesh Namaste Ramesh imo, The problem with any desire is that it is in the mind and therefore binds us. A desire on the bhakti path can be useful if one gets to the stage of non-duality with the desired and no ego. Otherwise we are using a thorn to remove a thorn but holding on to the thorn anyway....That is why on the path of jnana 'Who am I? " is the most simple and use the writings and readings as an adjucnt or diversion. For if writings and teachings could change the world it would be a heaven right? It isn't for human nature doesn't change as long as the dogs back leg is bent....And the point after all is not a search for heaven or any other binding subtle plane.....Cheers Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Dear Tony .. Just one subtle difference though .. this Desire is not born in the mind .. but it is straight from the HEART .. a natural bonding between the child and the mother ..unfortunately down the ages , we have forgotten that we are but children and that the Divine Mother's love is always there for the asking ... but the EGO makes us proud and wants to retain individuality ... as you rightly pointed out .. no amount of reading or writing can prompt this DESIRE .. it must necessarily flower from within our heart with HIS INFINITE GRACE..period.. love ramesh --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: Tony OClery <aoclery Re: Desire ..A conversation advaitin Thursday, April 23, 2009, 10:30 PM advaitin@ s.com, ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv@ ...> wrote: > > Pranams Tony.. > > Just a few words...An intense desire /need for Saranagathi must be felt , right ? > > love > > ramesh Namaste Ramesh imo, The problem with any desire is that it is in the mind and therefore binds us. A desire on the bhakti path can be useful if one gets to the stage of non-duality with the desired and no ego. Otherwise we are using a thorn to remove a thorn but holding on to the thorn anyway....That is why on the path of jnana 'Who am I? " is the most simple and use the writings and readings as an adjucnt or diversion. For if writings and teachings could change the world it would be a heaven right? It isn't for human nature doesn't change as long as the dogs back leg is bent....And the point after all is not a search for heaven or any other binding subtle plane.....Cheers Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 advaitin , ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv wrote: > > Dear Tony .. > > Just one subtle difference though .. this Desire is not born in the mind .. but it is straight from the HEART .. a natural bonding between the child and the mother ..unfortunately down the ages , we have forgotten that we are but children and that the Divine Mother's love is always there for the asking ... but the EGO makes us proud and wants to retain individuality ... as you rightly pointed out .. no amount of reading or writing can prompt this DESIRE .. it must necessarily flower from within our heart with HIS INFINITE GRACE..period.. > > love > > ramesh Namaste Ramesh, The engine of creation is desire....but that is illusion is it not? Desire from the heart is attachment or bonding as the buzzword goes these days. I'm not saying all desire is bad---I did mention bhakti and its culmination in egolessness. However why not surrender now? For a desire to be realised may become intense and then so strong one will not recognes the signals, waiting for the 'experience'. For example one may meditate or do japa and lose consciousness and wonder what happened. Thinking that one fell asleep and must stop doing that when in all probabality it was sahaja samadhi, or the natural state Ramana calls it. No memory not anything!! So people get into the natural state but don't recognise it for their desire needs bells and whistles and experience.. So desire is useful to point one on the path but like bliss it can become an impediment...........Cheers Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Dear Tony ... Agree with you fully...There are many instances where one can get stuck along the path ..so much so we can never be too sure and say THIS IS IT... Shalom ramesh --- On Sat, 4/25/09, Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: Tony OClery <aoclery Re: Desire ..A conversation advaitin Saturday, April 25, 2009, 12:07 AM advaitin@ s.com, ramesh chivukula <ramesh_chiv@ ...> wrote: > > Dear Tony .. > > Just one subtle difference though .. this Desire is not born in the mind .. but it is straight from the HEART .. a natural bonding between the child and the mother ..unfortunately down the ages , we have forgotten that we are but children and that the Divine Mother's love is always there for the asking ... but the EGO makes us proud and wants to retain individuality ... as you rightly pointed out .. no amount of reading or writing can prompt this DESIRE .. it must necessarily flower from within our heart with HIS INFINITE GRACE..period. . > > love > > ramesh Namaste Ramesh, The engine of creation is desire....but that is illusion is it not? Desire from the heart is attachment or bonding as the buzzword goes these days. I'm not saying all desire is bad---I did mention bhakti and its culmination in egolessness. However why not surrender now? For a desire to be realised may become intense and then so strong one will not recognes the signals, waiting for the 'experience' . For example one may meditate or do japa and lose consciousness and wonder what happened. Thinking that one fell asleep and must stop doing that when in all probabality it was sahaja samadhi, or the natural state Ramana calls it. No memory not anything!! So people get into the natural state but don't recognise it for their desire needs bells and whistles and experience.. So desire is useful to point one on the path but like bliss it can become an impediment.. ......... Cheers Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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