Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Dear Sai-ji, Does Swami P really say that " In the process of looking at horoscopes, a gifted astrologer can determine what Prarabdha Karmas will be fructifying and when, and prescribe certain Prayaschittas or rituals that can help reduce or even eliminate the ill effects of the fructification of the bad Karmas (paapas) " ? I know I have expressed serious skepticism (to put it politely) about this subject on the list before. Is there actual scriptural endorsement of astrology in any of the prasthAna traya? Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Indian Rediff Monday, May 11, 2009 10:43 PM advaitin Re: Re: Karma I am currently listening to Swami Paramarthananda's lecture on Chapter 4, verses 37-38 or thereabouts. He has explained this very beautifully. I am typing this as I am listening to the lecture. << >> In the process of looking at horoscopes, a gifted astrologer can determine what Prarabdha Karmas will be fructifying and when, and prescribe certain Prayaschittas or rituals that can help reduce or even eliminate the ill effects of the fructification of the bad Karmas (paapas). << >> Sai .. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=4 4930/stime=1242078286/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Dear dennis-ji, Pranams. <Is there actual scriptural endorsement of astrology in any of the prasthAna traya?>>>>> The above statement of yours is something quite immatured. Is *prasthana-traya* the *only* scriptural authority. Is not the Jyotishya one of the 6 systems of Indian Philosphy. Yes, certainly, Fengshuis, Chiero, Reikis etc. WHICH ARE BORROWED FROM WEST ARE NOT MENTIONED in veda and can be brushed aside as baseless but there is a system designed by our vedic rishis to fix certain timings for vedic anushtanas and yagas. Among the six anga's of Veda Purusha, Jyothisha is akin to eyes and hence this shastra is very important. This shastra gives us details about stars, planets, planetary positions and the relationship between these celestial objects and life on earth. Our ancestors used this shastra primarily to know the planetary positions and therefore arrive at the correct time to perform rites laid out by shastras. Unless under extraordinary circumstances, it wasn't used to predict how future events would unfold. Unfortunately, the current trend is to use Jyotisha exclusively for predicting the future. Instead, we should strive to use Jyotisha only to determine the appropriate time for various anushtanas as prescribed by the Shastras.Even Varahamihira says that while we can say good or bad things can happen, the magnitude of the same (how good or how bad) is known only Brahma, the creator. As the saying " Sadasanugrahah grahah " , no planets will ever affect a person who performs his sadachara (duties). Moreover, its said in the Shastras that the horoscope, Janma Nakshatra and Janma rasi must be kept a secret to the extent possible. Thats why our ancestors seldom showed them to others for prediction. Instead they were more focused on performing their duties and they attained shreyas out of it. Mantra shAstra is often compared with jyotiSha and Ayurveda. What the three have in common is that they produce concrete results whether people beleive it or not. One will also note that a good number of tAntrika-s are schloars in jyotiSha and /or Ayurveda. Entire Atharvana Veda is a practical system of implementation of the mantra sastra for prayogas. Please understand that Brahmana portion and Upanishad Portion both are a part and parcel of Veda. One cannot simply brush aside the mantra aspect and accept the jnana aspect. Acharya Sankara in his purva mimamsa bhashya gives a wonderful example of *Artha Jarati Nyaya* saying that people don't accept certain things which are beyong their *intellectual* understanding. with regards, sriram advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Dear Sai-ji, > > Does Swami P really say that " In the process of looking at horoscopes, a > gifted astrologer can determine what Prarabdha Karmas will be fructifying > and when, and prescribe certain Prayaschittas or rituals that can help > reduce or even eliminate the ill effects of the fructification of the bad > Karmas (paapas) " ? > > I know I have expressed serious skepticism (to put it politely) about this > subject on the list before. Is there actual scriptural endorsement of > astrology in any of the prasthAna traya? > > Best wishes, > > Dennis > > > > advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf > Of Indian Rediff > Monday, May 11, 2009 10:43 PM > advaitin > Re: Re: Karma > > > > I am currently listening to Swami Paramarthananda's lecture on Chapter 4, > verses 37-38 or thereabouts. He has explained this very beautifully. I am > typing this as I am listening to the lecture. > > << >> > > In the process of looking at horoscopes, a gifted astrologer can determine > what Prarabdha Karmas will be fructifying and when, and prescribe certain > Prayaschittas or rituals that can help reduce or even eliminate the ill > effects of the fructification of the bad Karmas (paapas). > > << >> > > Sai > > > > > . > > > <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=4 > 4930/stime=1242078286/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Dear Sriram-ji, I asked: " Is there actual scriptural endorsement of astrology in any of the prasthAna traya? " Your reply was that: " The above statement of yours is something quite immature. Is *prasthAna-traya* the *only* scriptural authority? Is not the Jyotishya one of the 6 systems of Indian Philosophy? " I certainly did not mean to be disrespectful in my statement and apologize if it seemed so. However, my understanding is that no action can bring about enlightenment, only Self-knowledge. Therefore the prasthAna traya, in particular the upaniShad-s, is essential in that it provides that knowledge (best unfolded by a qualified teacher, of course). The karma kANDa, on the other hand, though invaluable for the *immature* student in providing guidance for acquiring sAdhanA chatuShTaya sampatti, is non-essential. This, in my understanding is the position of Shankara, as expressed in the early part of the brahmasUtra bhAShya. Also, you must appreciate that much of the guidance given by karma kANDa, though relevant for someone brought up in that tradition, is alien to, and inappropriate for a Westerner. Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Dear Sitaraji, Pranamas, Thank you for your response. I am happy that you are doing research on karma theory. I wish you all the best in your venture. I wish, you should also do research on Advitha. If one thinks Advithic truth is the ultimate truth, then one has to drop all theories based on the physical body as self, because Advithic truth is based on the soul, which is the true self. By accepting karma theory one is accepting the false self, as real self, and world as reality, therefore there is no need for self inquiry " Who am `I' " , because one has accepted the present physical identity and world as reality. Self inquiry makes one realize the fact that self is not the body. After knowing the fact that self is not the body, then it is erroneous to think again as the body as self, and holding the body based theories as reality. Thus karma theory becomes a biggest obstacle in the path of inquiry and truth, because it does not allow the seeker to cross the threshold of duality. The physical body and the world which exits only in waking/dream/duality are impermanent and illusory in nature, because they appear and disappear as mind. The soul which is the formless substance and witness of the duality is permanent. Therefore, whatever is seen known and believed and experienced as real within the waking also is as real as dream. Adi Sankaracharya says in Aparokshanubhuti:- 88. When the whole universe, movable and immovable, is known to be Atman, and thus the existence of everything else is negated, where is then any room to say that the body is Atman? 89. O enlightened one, pass your time always contemplating on Atman while you are experiencing all the results of Prarabdha; for it ill becomes you to feel distressed. 90. The theory one hears of from the scripture, that Prarabdha does not lose its hold upon one even after the origination of the knowledge of Atman, is now being refuted. 91. After the origination of the knowledge of Reality, Prarabdha verily ceases to exist, inasmuch as the body and the like become non-existent; just as a dream does not exist on waking. 92. That Karma which is done in a previous life is known as Prarabdha (which produces the present life). But such Karma cannot take the place of Prarabdha (for a man of knowledge), as he has no other birth (being free from ego). 93. Just as the body in a dream is superimposed (and therefore illusory), so is also this body. How could there be any birth of the superimposed (body), and in the absence of birth (of the body) where is the room for that (i.e., Prarabdha) at all ? 94. The Vedanta texts declare ignorance to be verily the material (cause) of the phenomenal world just as earth is of a jar. That (ignorance) being destroyed, where can the universe subsist ? 95. Just as a person out of confusion perceives only the snake leaving aside the rope, so does an ignorant person see only the phenomenal world without knowing the reality? 96. The real nature of the rope being known, the appearance of the snake no longer persists; so the substratum being known, the phenomenal world disappears completely. 97. The body also being within the phenomenal world (and therefore unreal), how could Prarabdha exist ? It is, therefore, for the understanding of the ignorant alone that the Shruti speaks of Prarabdha. 98. " And all the actions of a man perish when he realizes that (Atman) which is both the higher and the lower " . Here the clear use of the plural by the Shruti is to negate Prarabdha as well. 99. If the ignorant still arbitrarily maintain this, they will not only involve themselves into two absurdities but will also run the risk of forgoing the Vedantic conclusion. So one should accept those Shrutis alone from which proceeds true knowledge. The above proves that the karma is reality only on the base of false self, where one thinks body and the universes as reality. When one becomes aware of the fact that, the true self is formless soul, then the karma becomes part and parcel of illusion. My point is that, if one accepts the karma theory as reality, he will never be able to come out of the ignorance. And ignorance makes him believe the cycle of birth, life and death as reality. Thus the freedom which one is seeking will remain distant dream. For the one who accepts the birth life and death as reality, Self-knowledge is impossible. Thus it is necessary for the seeker of truth to know the fact that, the body which is born, lives and dies is not the self. Since he is taking the body to be the self, he is experiencing the duality as reality. As Sri, Sankara says: When the whole universe, movable and immovable, is known to be Atman, and thus the existence of everything else is negated, where is then any room to say that the body is Atman. If body is not the Ataman/self, then the karma theory has no meaning on the standpoint of the truth. Thus no second thing exists other then Ataman, therefore why to view the worldview on the standpoint of the body as self when the body is the false self, and the soul/Ataman is the true self. Essence of Astvakara is: Realizing Ataman/soul as self, the liberation is possible in this very life right here and right now, not in the next life /next world. Religion, theories scriptures and concept of god are created as tool for conditioning the mass mind set, to control their individualized mind, to the self judge, what is good and what is evil, with the fear of conceptual god, who will in turn punish them, or reward them with good or bad life, in life after life which is only illusion. And this fear helps to maintain peace and harmony in the society to some extent. But man and world exist within the mind and mind is myth on the standpoint of the soul as self, thus all the theories based on the false hood, have no relevance in the realm of the nondual truth. Therefore, individual actions and conducts are not the means to acquire self-knowledge. Thank you, Best wishes With respect and regards Santthosh. advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote: > > Dear Santoshji, dear Bhaskaranji > > Pranams > > thank you for your input, pointing to ultimate truth. There is no question that what you say is true on paramarthika level - meaning ultimately true and real. > In contrast to the theory of karma which is true on vyavaharika level only - ultimately untrue and unreal. > > Theory of karma still serves a valuable purpose though. Even if I may be able to look through it, it is still a very valuable concept for seekers who do > > believe their present physical identity [ego] as real, and world as reality. > > It helps to relax and calm the mind, so they may be able to develop more vairagya. > It may help others to take more responsability and act more according to dharma. > > So it can be important to understand the theory of karma in depths and detail, in order to explain it to others, even if you yourself may not need it anymore. > > Om Shanti > > Sitara > > > > advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " santthoshkumaar@ wrote: > > > > > > Pranamas, > > > > > > > > The karma theory is reality only for those who believe their present > > physical identity [ego] as real, and world as reality. When Sri, > > Sankara declares the world itself is illusion, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Dear dennis, Pranams. Forgive me if i have hurt anybody's feelings. What raised my eyebrow is your blunt statement seeking *scriptural authority* of Jyotishya Sastra which is one among the shad-darshanas. As the term *sastra* implicitly imply *science* which is based on facts & observations and i think one need not show any scriptural evidences to prove its authority as the word *science* is self-explanatory. Now, regarding the maturity / immaturity levels of sadhaka for observance of karmakanda, yes, as you said, varna ashrama dharma should be maintained. But, that does not mean that the person who performs the karma kanda to the core like Kanchi Mahaswamigal, the acharyas of Sringeri Pitha etc. are immatured. I think i need not explain the word *athato* of the 1st sutra of BS which all of us know what it means. One should know one's limitations before judging themselves to be mature or immature. Their inner conscience is the benchmark for sadhana. Other than this, i have no issues. with love and warm regards, sriram advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Dear Sriram-ji, > > > > I asked: " Is there actual scriptural endorsement of astrology in any of the > prasthAna traya? " > Your reply was that: " The above statement of yours is something quite > immature. Is *prasthAna-traya* the *only* scriptural authority? Is not the > Jyotishya one of the 6 systems of Indian Philosophy? " > > > > I certainly did not mean to be disrespectful in my statement and apologize > if it seemed so. However, my understanding is that no action can bring about > enlightenment, only Self-knowledge. Therefore the prasthAna traya, in > particular the upaniShad-s, is essential in that it provides that knowledge > (best unfolded by a qualified teacher, of course). The karma kANDa, on the > other hand, though invaluable for the *immature* student in providing > guidance for acquiring sAdhanA chatuShTaya sampatti, is non-essential. This, > in my understanding is the position of Shankara, as expressed in the early > part of the brahmasUtra bhAShya. Also, you must appreciate that much of the > guidance given by karma kANDa, though relevant for someone brought up in > that tradition, is alien to, and inappropriate for a Westerner. > > > > Best wishes, > > Dennis > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > > Dear dennis, > > Pranams. Forgive me if i have hurt anybody's feelings. > > What raised my eyebrow is your blunt statement seeking *scriptural authority* of Jyotishya Sastra which is one among the shad-darshanas. As the term *sastra* implicitly imply *science* which is based on facts & observations and i think one need not show any scriptural evidences to prove its authority as the word *science* is self-explanatory. > Sriramji, One correction : Jyotisha is not one of the shad-darsanas. It is one of the six vedangas ( Limbs of veda, which are meant to be studied by the vedic students ). More details are available in wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanga > with love and warm regards, > sriram > Regards, Raj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 PraNAms In relation to Karma and enlightment - here is a sloka from Bhagavaan Ramana's Sat DarshaNam. karomi karmeti naro vijaanan baadhyo bhavet karma phalam ca bhoktum| vicaara dhuutaa hRidi kartRitaa cet karmatrayam nashyati saa eva muktiH|| The one who thinking that 'I do work' or with the notion that I am doer (kartRitva bhaava) is bound by that notion of doership and also by the enjoyership of the fruits of those actions. But one who can shake off these notions of doer ship and enjoyerships - kartRitvam and bhoktRitvam from the core of his personality all these three karmaas (sancita, prarabda and aagaami) perishes and that alone is liberation. Free from the notion of finitudes or understanding of the divisionlessness. The point is it is not that they are not there - it is there for those who think they are doers and enjoyers. As long as that doership is there - one is bound by that very notion of doership. Understanding I am never doer comes only with vicaara or inquiry of my true nature and for that a frame of mind or purity of the mind , what Shankara calls as saadhana catuShTaya sampatti, the four-fold qualifications, is required. The apparent bondage of the karmas will become apparent only when the truth is recognized. Until then the apparent appears to be real. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Dear Sriram, << As the term *sastra* implicitly imply *science* which is based on facts & observations and i think one need not show any scriptural evidences to prove its authority as the word *science* is self-explanatory.>> I do not feel that you have a very solid foundation for your argument here. Phrenology, for example, was an accepted science in the early 19th century. The existence of phlogiston was widely accepted by chemists in the 18th century. It was once accepted by everyone that the earth was the centre of the universe. Need I go on? Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 advaitin , " rajkumarknair " <rajkumarknair wrote: > > advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote: > >> > More details are available in wikipedia : > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanga > Namaste, Another good reference is : http://kamakoti.org/newlayout/template/hindudharma.html/10/1/hindu/Jyotisa (Chapters 1-9) Discourse by Kanchi Paramacharya Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 on the dot ,raj kumar ji. suresh. advaitin , " rajkumarknair " <rajkumarknair wrote: > > advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear dennis, > > > > Pranams. Forgive me if i have hurt anybody's feelings. > > > > What raised my eyebrow is your blunt statement seeking *scriptural authority* of Jyotishya Sastra which is one among the shad-darshanas. As the term *sastra* implicitly imply *science* which is based on facts & observations and i think one need not show any scriptural evidences to prove its authority as the word *science* is self-explanatory. > > > > Sriramji, > One correction : > Jyotisha is not one of the shad-darsanas. It is one of the six > vedangas ( Limbs of veda, which are meant to be studied by the vedic > students ). > > More details are available in wikipedia : > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanga > > > with love and warm regards, > > sriram > > > > Regards, > Raj. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Dear Sastri-ji, Apologies for the delay in posting this comment. I did begin a response straight away but then deleted it. But I was not altogether happy with your statement: " The causal body is only avidya. It is not the store-house of vAsanas. They are part of the subtle body. " I, too, might have made such a response and thought no more about it. But surely, the individual body and mind is in an unmanifest state in suShupti and all minds and gross matter are in the causal form in pralaya. Must it not, therefore, be the case that vAsanA-s are stored in the causal body for some of the time? (Or am I just being pedantic - one of my failings, I know!) Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of snsastri Tuesday, May 12, 2009 11:40 AM advaitin Re: Karma Dear Sitara-ji and Mouna-ji, << >> 3. samskAras-These are the impressions left after cognitions. A person sees something which attracts his attention, but forgets about it afterwards. This cognition leaves an impression in his mind, which is called a samskAra. This samskAra rouses, at some future time, the memory of the thing he had seen. The word samskAra is also used in the sense of vAsana. Good vAsanas are called samskarasa and bad vAsanas are called vasanas. A person of good and noble qualities is described as one with a good samskAra. Mounaji-- The causal body is only avidya. It is not the store-house of vAsanas. They are part of the subtle body. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri _ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > I, too, might have made such a response and thought no more about it. But > surely, the individual body and mind is in an unmanifest state in suShupti > and all minds and gross matter are in the causal form in pralaya. Must it > not, therefore, be the case that vAsanA-s are stored in the causal body for > some of the time? (Or am I just being pedantic - one of my failings, I > know!) > > Best wishes, > > Dennis Dear Dennis-ji, Shloka 98 of vivekacUDAmaNi ( vAgAdi panca----) says that the subtle body is made up of eight components, of which karma is one. In deep sleep also the subtle body exists as a separate entity, though it is dormant. In pralaya also, each subtle body must remain separate. Otherwise how can it come out as a distinct entity at the time of the next creation? Therefore the subtle body cannot merge in the causal body either during sleep or in pralaya. When it is said that it is in causal form it can only mean that it is not active, but dormant. The individuality of each subtle body has to continue until it is destroyed on liberation. Moreover, I have not seen it stated anywhere that the karma goes into the causal body during sleep. The causal body is avidya alone. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Dear Sastri-ji, This was why I made the point about being pedantic. If A is contained in B and B is then contained in C, A must also 'effectively' be in C, even if it is still 'in the form of A'. Here is part of an off-line statement that I made: " I think one has to concede that, since the mind is resolved in deep sleep, the vAsanA-s have to be stored in the causal state. There is no avoiding this conclusion. The mitigating point is that the vAsanA-s only become manifest in the gross and subtle states, where they can be said to be stored in the subtle form. Swami P differentiates waking and dream from sleep by the words ignorance and error. Both ignorance and error are present in waking and dream but ignorance only in deep sleep. Since vAsanA-s are associated with the error aspect (i.e. we perceive and act according to fructifying saMskAra), this is where they are meaningful. Nevertheless, there is no escaping the fact that they must be somewhere in deep sleep! " Hope we can agree on this! Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of snsastri Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:38 AM advaitin Re: Karma Dear Dennis-ji, Shloka 98 of vivekacUDAmaNi ( vAgAdi panca----) says that the subtle body is made up of eight components, of which karma is one. In deep sleep also the subtle body exists as a separate entity, though it is dormant. In pralaya also, each subtle body must remain separate. Otherwise how can it come out as a distinct entity at the time of the next creation? Therefore the subtle body cannot merge in the causal body either during sleep or in pralaya. When it is said that it is in causal form it can only mean that it is not active, but dormant. The individuality of each subtle body has to continue until it is destroyed on liberation. Moreover, I have not seen it stated anywhere that the karma goes into the causal body during sleep. The causal body is avidya alone. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri __. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Dennis - PraNAms Mouna asked me in private the questions you have raised. Shree Sastriji is correct. This is the way I would understand the teaching - According to advaita avidya or ignorance which is the causal state has two fold aspect. one is aavaraNa, the covering aspect, and the other is viskhepa, the projecting aspect. In deep sleep, the projecting power is dormant since for that mind supported by consciousness is required. Hence in the deep sleep state only the aavaraNa is in full bloom. You cannnot differentiate any thing in ignorance hence it is anandamayam. Likes and dislikes the expressions of vaasanas are dormant too Hence ManDukya defines deep sleep state as - na kancana kaamam kaamayate na kancana svapnam pasyati, tat suShuptam - Any further inquiry about ignorance will not be fruitful, since it involves lack of knowledge. Knowledge which is part of subtle body is in dormant state covered by the aavaraNa shakti. Even for jnaani, in the deep sleep state the knowledge is covered. He sleeps as jnaani. Identified with consciousness he realizes the prakriti BMI is dormant in the deep sleep state. If mind is considered as thought flow, any flow involves direction. The direction is provided by the vaasanaas or one can think of the grooves in the mind that channel the thought flow. In deep sleep state the aavaraNa shakti coveres the mind and the grooves - like in a pitch dark room I cannot see even where the light switch is, even though it is there. Hope this Helps Hari Om! Sadananda --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote: This was why I made the point about being pedantic. If A is contained in B and B is then contained in C, A must also 'effectively' be in C, even if it is still 'in the form of A'. Here is part of an off-line statement that I made: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Dear Sada-ji, I do dispute any of what you say but the fact must remain that vAsanA-s must still be present in the deep sleep state, even though they are dormant. 'Dormant' does not mean 'absent'. Sorry to labor this point. I don't believe I have any misunderstanding here; I am just trying to clarify the point for Mouna-ji. Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of kuntimaddi sadananda Saturday, May 16, 2009 11:54 AM advaitin RE: Re: Karma << >> In deep sleep, the projecting power is dormant since for that mind supported by consciousness is required. Hence in the deep sleep state only the aavaraNa is in full bloom. << >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > " I think one has to concede that, since the mind is resolved in deep sleep, > the vAsanA-s have to be stored in the causal state. There is no avoiding > this conclusion. The mitigating point is that the vAsanA-s only become > manifest in the gross and subtle states, where they can be said to be stored > in the subtle form. Swami P differentiates waking and dream from sleep by > the words ignorance and error. Both ignorance and error are present in > waking and dream but ignorance only in deep sleep. Since vAsanA-s are > associated with the error aspect (i.e. we perceive and act according to > fructifying saMskAra), this is where they are meaningful. Nevertheless, > there is no escaping the fact that they must be somewhere in deep sleep! " > > Hope we can agree on this! > > Best wishes, > > Dennis Dear Dennis-ji, Mandukya karrika says that there is agrahaNam (non-apprehension or ignorance) in all the three states, but anyathAgrahaNam (wrong apprehension- which Swami Paramarthananda refers to as error) in waking and dream only. The vasanas are there in all the three states, but they become manifest only in waking and dream. The subtle body itself exists in all the three states, though it is dormant in sleep. It is accepted that the vasanas are in the subtle body in the dream and waking states. This subtle body remains intact in sleep also. So what is the need or basis for holding that the vasanas shift to the causal body in sleep? Moreover, it is the subtle body that distinguishes one person from another. The causal body is avidya, which is the same for all. If the vasanas of a jIva merge in avidya during sleep, how will they come back to the same jIva when he wakes up? Even in pralaya the vasanas of each jIva have to remain separate and so they have to be only in the subtle body which remains separate for each jiva even in pralaya. If they all merge in avidya or mAyA, the individuality of each jIva will cease. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Dear Sastri-ji, > > This was why I made the point about being pedantic. If A is contained in B > and B is then contained in C, A must also 'effectively' be in C, even if it > is still 'in the form of A'. Here is part of an off-line statement that I > made: Dear Dennis-ji, This is in continuation of my prev. post on this subject. Your example of A being contained in B and B being contained in C would apply if the subtle body merges in, or is contained in, the causal body in sleep. This is not so. All the three bodies remain separate in sleep. So the example does not apply. S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Dear Sastri-ji, I'm sure we are actually saying the same thing here, just emphasizing different words and seeming to bring out a different meaning but I will have one last go! The MU itself states in mantra 5 (vyaShTi standpoint)that " The Consciousness principle in this third state is called kAraNa Atma, a state which is ekIbhUta - all the differences have merged (c.f. all wax dolls melted down into an undifferentiated mass). " (Swami P's commentary) And in mantra 6 (samaShTi viewpoint) that " It is the material cause of the whole universe. c.f. a lump of clay is potential form for all vessels made of clay and, more particularly, the form (essentially spherical) of the lump is the potential form for all geometrical shapes of those vessels. Therefore clay has all the forms in unmanifest state. " If the mind (vyaShTi or samaShTi) were still effectively 'intact' in laya/pralaya as you put it, then it couldn't be said to have 'merged'. We would have to say that pralaya was something like a warehouse, where all the subtle bodies were stored ready for the next creation. I don't think this is what is meant. What I believe is meant is that the minds are, as if dumped to hard disk. I.e. the information needed to recreate them is held 'in unmanifest form'. At the time of the next creation, the disk is 'read' and the executable program is recreated in memory. (Apologies for the computer metaphor - I spent all my working life with computers!) Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of snsastri Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM advaitin Re: Karma Dear Dennis-ji, Mandukya karrika says that there is agrahaNam (non-apprehension or ignorance) in all the three states, but anyathAgrahaNam (wrong apprehension- which Swami Paramarthananda refers to as error) in waking and dream only. The vasanas are there in all the three states, but they become manifest only in waking and dream. The subtle body itself exists in all the three states, though it is dormant in sleep. It is accepted that the vasanas are in the subtle body in the dream and waking states. This subtle body remains intact in sleep also. So what is the need or basis for holding that the vasanas shift to the causal body in sleep? Moreover, it is the subtle body that distinguishes one person from another. The causal body is avidya, which is the same for all. If the vasanas of a jIva merge in avidya during sleep, how will they come back to the same jIva when he wakes up? Even in pralaya the vasanas of each jIva have to remain separate and so they have to be only in the subtle body which remains separate for each jiva even in pralaya. If they all merge in avidya or mAyA, the individuality of each jIva will cease. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri _ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > the computer metaphor - I spent all my working life with computers!) > Dear DennisJi, Pranams, The computer metaphor is a good one in relation to your point since we need to remember that all data existing in it is only a " subtle " dualistic combination of 1 and 0 (ones and zeros). When we " dump " data (either by creating, manipulating/storing or bringing back) to the hard drive, the data is actually an " undiffferentiated " mass of ones and zeros held together by their " potential " arrangement, their " patterns of probabilities " (vasanas). Even is we dump all individual data of all existent computers into one super-server, their potential arrangement or patterns will be there to be extracted at any time in their original form. Computers mean the actual " gross " machine and the " subtle " software. But in any case, for all the thing to work out, the fundamental piece is power, electronic energy, electricity, to make it al all " alive " . Otherwise, it's all a matter of " apparent " (mythia) ones and zeros as though existing " someplace " ... All the best, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote: > > advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite@> wrote: > > > > " I think one has to concede that, since the mind is resolved in deep sleep, > > the vAsanA-s have to be stored in the causal state. There is no avoiding > > this conclusion. The mitigating point is that the vAsanA-s only become > > manifest in the gross and subtle states, where they can be said to be stored > > in the subtle form. Swami P differentiates waking and dream from sleep by > > the words ignorance and error. Both ignorance and error are present in > > waking and dream but ignorance only in deep sleep. Since vAsanA-s are > > associated with the error aspect (i.e. we perceive and act according to > > fructifying saMskAra), this is where they are meaningful. Nevertheless, > > there is no escaping the fact that they must be somewhere in deep sleep! " > > > > Hope we can agree on this! > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Dennis > > Dear Dennis-ji, > Mandukya karrika says that there is agrahaNam (non-apprehension or ignorance) in all the three states, but anyathAgrahaNam (wrong apprehension- which Swami Paramarthananda refers to as error) in waking and dream only. The vasanas are there in all the three states, but they become manifest only in waking and dream. The subtle body itself exists in all the three states, though it is dormant in sleep. It is accepted that the vasanas are in the subtle body in the dream and waking states. This subtle body remains intact in sleep also. So what is the need or basis for holding that the vasanas shift to the causal body in sleep? > > Moreover, it is the subtle body that distinguishes one person from another. The causal body is avidya, which is the same for all. If the vasanas of a jIva merge in avidya during sleep, how will they come back to the same jIva when he wakes up? Even in pralaya the vasanas of each jIva have to remain separate and so they have to be only in the subtle body which remains separate for each jiva even in pralaya. If they all merge in avidya or mAyA, the individuality of each jIva will cease. > Best wishes, > S.N.Sastri > Dear Dennisji and Sastriji, i have recently joined your group and this is my first post. i have read previous few posts on this topic written by you. i would like to add on to this discusion. Sastriji said that vasanas cannot be deposited in the causal body as it is just avidya while subtle bodies are separate in everyone. i would like to draw your attention to the fact that Vedanta Sara of Sadananda mentions that causal bodies are different in each jiva and the collective ie the aggregates of these causal bodies is Isvara where during cosmic sleep the universe is dissolved. Taking the individual aspect it is known as Prajna and it is separate in everyone. So vasanas can merge in the causal body. Regards, Vaibhav. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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