Namaste, All, a Question for all!

[Guest guest]

Namaste, all learned members,

 

My following question may look quite odd!

 

If one is given an option between:

 

a)Moksha, i.e. liberation from Punarjanma, and

 

b)Punarjanma with self knowledge,

 

what one should choose?

 

In this context, one may remember, he goes to sleep with the

hope that he would get up in the morning. If he is told that after his sleep he

would not get up, would he choose to go to sleep? Rather, once he is told so,

he will lose all his sleep.

 

Moksha, I presume, entails no further “getting upâ€. I do not

know much about that.

 

I would like to hear what our learned members have to say in

this connection.

 

Sorry for deviation if any from the group policy.

 

Hari Om and with warm regards

 

Mani

 

 

 

 

R. S. Mani

 

 

Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to

http://in.business./

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mani-ji,

 

You cannot have Self-knowledge without also knowing that I was never born in the

first place, in which case where is the question of death or rebirth? I have, in

any case, always been free and unlimited. Where is the question of ‘gaining’

freedom? You are effectively asking ‘can one choose to gain knowledge and

still be ignorant?’

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of

R.S.MANI

Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:40 AM

group

Namaste, All, a Question for all!

 

Namaste, all learned members,

 

My following question may look quite odd!

 

If one is given an option between:

 

a)Moksha, i.e. liberation from Punarjanma, and

 

b)Punarjanma with self knowledge,

 

what one should choose?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hare krishna, namaskarams

 

self knowledge liberates one from punarjanma. i would choose moksha.

may lord krishna release us all from the cycle of birth and death.

 

baskaran

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter

http://beta.cricket.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

  

Namaste, Sri Dennis ji,

Thank you for your kind response. I can appreciate what you have mentioned.

However, in the light of what you say “ Self-knowledge without also knowing

that I was never born in the first place, in which case where is the question of

death or rebirth?†what exactly is meant by the ultimate MOKSHA? I am asking

this because to my very little knowledge that the ultimate moksha involves

merging of jeeva or small “I†with Brahman, like rivers merge in the ocean,

losing their individual identity. Once such merging takes place will any

individual river have any “experience†or even Knowledge? Will it not be

like one in deep sleep, with no particular experience or knowledge?

These are just my doubts and since there will be “no getting up†from sleep

in such merging, how will one recollect any experience in such deep sleep, or

merging because “the recollector†will not be there?

In this context how am to understand “sa na punaravarte†a sootra which I

think appears towards the end of Brahmasutra. Who exactly is this “sa†? Is

he the one attained Moksha by attaining self knowledge, which it cannot be, as

he was never borne and there is no question of any punar avartanam. What exactly

is meant by “na punaravarteâ€, is it not reborn again?

Or, am I to understand, punarjanma means rebirth of ignorance and knowledge

which is based on the ignorance, and not rebirth into a different body. Rather,

Moksha means getting rid of ignorance i.e. self ignorance, which leads to

ignorance about also idam and Eswara? Here, “punarapi jananam punarapi

maranam, punarapi janai jadhare sayanam†does it mean rebirth of ignorance,

death of ignorance, and suffering involved only due to the ignorance in rebirth

by lying in the womb of the mother, and it does not talk about any individual

taking birth, dying etc. Does it not mean the ignorant ego? However, once

removed how ignorance can come back, i.e. punarapi jananam?

I would appreciate your and others views on these rather “silly†questions,

as they can appear as “silly†for one with self knowledge.

With kind regards and Hari Om

R.S.Mani

 

R. S. Mani

 

--- On Sat, 16/5/09, Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

 

 

Dennis Waite <dwaite

RE: Namaste, All, a Question for all!

advaitin

Saturday, 16 May, 2009, 3:06 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Mani-ji,

 

You cannot have Self-knowledge without also knowing that I was never born in the

first place, in which case where is the question of death or rebirth? I have, in

any case, always been free and unlimited. Where is the question of ‘gaining’

freedom? You are effectively asking ‘can one choose to gain knowledge and

still be ignorant?’

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

advaitin@ s.com [advaitin@ s.com] On Behalf Of

R.S.MANI

Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:40 AM

group

Namaste, All, a Question for all!

 

Namaste, all learned members,

 

My following question may look quite odd!

 

If one is given an option between:

 

a)Moksha, i.e. liberation from Punarjanma, and

 

b)Punarjanma with self knowledge,

 

what one should choose?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Maniji - PraNAms

 

Moksha in simple terms is to recognize

1. Brahma satyam

2. Jagat mithyaa

3. Jiiva is Brahman.

 

It is this recognition that makes us to understand that there is no bondage to

start with and therefore there is no moksha also - but abidance in the knowledge

that I am - is pure unadulterated existence-consciousness is moksha.

 

In recognize that only we need all the saadhana for purifying the mind so that

this truth can become crystal clear.

 

There is the story of a person who visited his friend and showed his friend the

new golden necklace that he has got and when he returned back after waking back

four miles he discovered that he does not have the necklace around his neck.

Thinking that He must have forgotten at his friend place, he ran back. There his

friend pointed out to him the necklace is still around his neck but got hidden

behind his short. The necklace that he was searching was never away from him at

any moment. His friend provided the necessary teaching required.

 

Now was that all running necessary to discover the necklace that he never lost.

 

All that running was necessary to discover that all that running was not

necessary.

 

This is also the same with moksha. I am nithya suddha caitanya swaruupam all the

time. eternal, pure the embodiment of consciousness itself. All the saadhana is

necessary to discover that all the saadhana is not necessary since I am actually

free all the time - nitya mukta swaruupoham ahama eva avyayam. I am free all the

time and only I have to drop the wrong notions that I have to look for freedom,

since I feel I am bound. Like the person who felt that he lost his necklace -

the running and the teacher were necessary to discover that no running and no

teacher is necessary to discover what I am already.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

--- On Mon, 5/18/09, R.S.MANI <r_s_mani wrote:

[Guest guest]

I am asking this because to my very little knowledge that the ultimate

moksha involves merging of jeeva or small “I†with Brahman, like rivers

merge in the ocean, losing their individual identity. Once such merging

takes place will any individual river have any “experience†or even

Knowledge?

 

 

praNAms Sri Mani prabhuji

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

IMHO, a strict advaita school's goal is slightly different from this and

they say mOksha is to realize that there is brahman and ONLY brahman and

there was/ is / will be nothing but brahman..the mergence with the brahman

is a superficial theory which they too hold at 'trasactional level' just to

drive home the point that there is ONLY secondless brahman forever.

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mani-ji,

 

When you are striving for self-knowledge (as you clearly are), there is no such

thing as a ‘silly question’, if a rational answer to this is impeding your

understanding.

 

Self-ignorance is the belief that one is a limited individual, subject to

saMsAra (punarapi jananam etc.) The truth is that who-you-really-are is *never*

this, i.e. it is not a matter of gaining release from saMsAra; it is a matter of

realizing that you never were subject to it in the first place. It is

effectively the subtle body that goes from birth to birth so that, as long as

you remain identified with this, it appears that *you* also are reborn.

Enlightenment is simply recognizing this truth and realizing who-you-really-are

– brahman. Subsequently, the body-mind with which you were identified

continues until death of that body and that subtle body is then not reborn

again.

 

There is no ‘merging’, either at the time of enlightenment or at the time of

death of the body, because you were never separate to begin with. It is not that

you are a ‘part’ of brahman – you *are* brahman.

 

As far as ‘experience’ or ‘knowledge’ post-enlightenment is concerned, I

suggest you refer back to the prolonged discussions that took place a month or

two back – we don’t want to open that ‘can of worms’ again! The line

that I (and most other members) took is that the normal body-mind activities

continue until death of the body. The only difference is that the Self-knowledge

that ‘I am not the body-mind’ and ‘I am brahman’ is now irrevocably in

place.

 

Regarding the brahmasUtra reference, I will have to leave that to someone else

as I am currently only up to 1.1.24!

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of

R.S.MANI

Monday, May 18, 2009 12:42 PM

advaitin

RE: Namaste, All, a Question for all!

 

 

 

However, in the light of what you say “ Self-knowledge without also knowing

that I was never born in the first place, in which case where is the question of

death or rebirth?†what exactly is meant by the ultimate MOKSHA? I am asking

this because to my very little knowledge that the ultimate moksha involves

merging of jeeva or small “I†with Brahman, like rivers merge in the ocean,

losing their individual identity. Once such merging takes place will any

individual river have any “experience†or even Knowledge? Will it not be

like one in deep sleep, with no particular experience or knowledge?

These are just my doubts and since there will be “no getting up†from sleep

in such merging, how will one recollect any experience in such deep sleep, or

merging because “the recollector†will not be there?

 

 

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