Namaste All

[Guest guest]

Namaste, all,

 

Many responses and clarifications have been posted on my query by our learned

group mates, and I thank each and everyone. I think, I have to get the views on

Punarjanma and Moksha assimilated more and more.

 

While respecting the views mentioned by all, please permit me to state only the

following:

 

Sri Sadanandaji says,

<<Moksha is clear abidance in this knowledge of I am.>>

<< Vedanta solves psychological responses to the biological problems which is

called samsaara>>

 (I would rather say Vedanta “alone†solves psychological…….)

And also Sri Yaduji, says

<< The real spirituality of our ancient concepts have a direct application in

our present life. If this is done only then there can be any value to what sages

have tried to document there understanding. Often scholars miss out this

important aspect and keep on discussing the " Snake & Rope " Analogy and have no

desire to apply that in our daily life. So, these folks are tapped in their

views and feel good, that they have understood he vedanta !? Academically that

is true but what good is knowledge if one does not use it, cannot use it or has

no desire to use it !!>>

<< In my view this is the practical application of advaita. That is why the

student goes to the teacher and bum-bards him with questions. Once he is

satisfied then he becomes knowledgeable. Any of the analogies are only

illustrations created by the teaches to drive-in the core essence of

statements.>>

 

For me, as far as the study of Vedanta, this is most appealing, because

self-knowledge releases one from his (false) dependence on body, mind and

intellect even for mere existence, let alone happiness, and once this dependence

is falsified, he knows, that these, i.e. body, mind and intellect, are just

tools for him to make use of whenever required and in whatever way required,

whenever he engages, if at all he engages, in any action in the eyes of others.

Vyvahara cannot be avoided, (though one can negate it to appreciate the ultimate

Truth and even in that case, what will one do with the negator, as he himself is

mithya,) as there is no disappearance of anything, including vyvahara, when

ignorance gets vanished, just like the movement of sun from east to west

continues to appear, even after knowing that it is not the fact.  So with

self-knowledge, everything is “as if†like the “as if movement of the sun,

i.e. “iva†the actor, action, stage, etc. etc.

 “Punarjanma, krama-mukti, etc.†yes, are all there in our tradition, but

they all are “hereafter†and I do not know what they exactly entail,

although there may be mention about it in the shruties, as taking another body,

etc. Respecting that, let them, i.e punarjana, karma-mukti, etc., happen or not

in future, as such happening or happening also will be “as if†or “ivaâ€

only.

Once again my sincere thanks to all and with kind regards,

R.S.Mani

 

 

 

R. S. Mani

 

 

Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to

http://in.movies./

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- On Tue, 5/26/09, R.S.MANI <r_s_mani wrote:

Vyvahara cannot be avoided, (though one can negate it to appreciate the ultimate

Truth and even in that case, what will one do with the negator, as he himself is

mithya,) as there is no disappearance of anything, including vyvahara, when

ignorance gets vanished, just like the movement of sun from east to west

continues to appear, even after knowing that it is not the fact.  So with

self-knowledge, everything is “as if†like the “as if movement of the sun,

i.e. “iva†the actor, action, stage, etc. etc.

 

 

Maniji - PraNAms

 

YOu have understood. I would say vyavahaara not only cannot be avoided as long

as BMI is there, but need not be avaided also. World is never a problem, it is

just inert. World can become a problem if I value more than what it deserves.

That is what is called raaga and dvesha. Whereever I go, I am always there and

I am what I am, irrespective any apparent superimpositions. samatvam yoga uchate

- proper undestanding who I am, what is this world and what is the relationship

between the subject-object has to be clearly understood and that is jnaanam.

Jnaani also starts with I am, Iswra also starts with I am; free-will and fate

discussions are also starting with I am or I think - clear understanding of the

thinker I am and everything else that I see that if I see existing or thinking

of - is the same existance manefesting in multitude forms; form is mithyaa, the

substantive seer is the truth. That Understanding and abiding in that

understanding is moksha.

 

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani wrote:

>

> Namaste, all,

 

> And also Sri Yaduji, says

> << The real spirituality of our ancient concepts have a direct application in

our present life. If this is done only then there can be any value to what sages

have tried to document there understanding. Often scholars miss out this

important aspect and keep on discussing the " Snake & Rope " Analogy and have no

desire to apply that in our daily life. So, these folks are tapped in their

views and feel good, that they have understood he vedanta !? Academically that

is true but what good is knowledge if one does not use it, cannot use it or has

no desire to use it !!>>

> << In my view this is the practical application of advaita. That is why the

student goes to the teacher and bum-bards him with questions. Once he is

satisfied then he becomes knowledgeable. Any of the analogies are only

illustrations created by the teaches to drive-in the core essence of

statements.>>

>  

<

>  “Punarjanma, krama-mukti, etc.†yes, are all there in our tradition, but

they all are “hereafter†and I do not know what they exactly entail,

although there may be mention about it in the shruties, as taking another body,

etc. Respecting that, let them, i.e punarjana, karma-mukti, etc., happen or not

in future, as such happening or happening also will be “as if†or “ivaâ€

only.

> Once again my sincere thanks to all and with kind regards,

> R.S.Mani

>  

>

>

> R. S. Mani

>

 

 

Namaste Mani-Ji:

 

IMO - Advaita provides us with a tool that can give us our own bearing and

possibly chart the future.

 

Thus asking the question we know who are we ? and Where are we ? Our observation

is - R^ita, which can possibly lead the saadhaka towards satya. Where one needs

expert understanding is understanding between the observations themselves. That

function is served by a Guru. Ultimately the " Real Guru " is in you yourself.

When one performs gurusevaa that is not to be perceived as the physical

sevaa/service but the keep on asking the questions until you are satisfied. It

is up to the guru to come-up with illustrations or analogies and help you

crystallize the truth. That is veda proclaims - R^ite j~naanaana muktiH Meaning

- Lliberation is only through knowledge.

 

Now coming back to punarjanma.

 

IMO - punarjanma is happening at all time continuously while we are living as an

individual or as human beings as society. That is why " History Repeats itself "

as we (as individual or as leaders or as society) keep making the same mistakes.

Therefore our real objective is to try and recognize the mistakes from our past,

because we cannot change that we cannot acknowledge !! Unfortunately using the

diluted Sanskrit terminology often leads to more confusion than answers, but one

feels that they have understood and then they become and remain only

" vedaantina " .

 

My apologies if I have diverted from the original query.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

[Guest guest]

It was said earlier in the discussion that vyavhara never ends. But it does.

What ever persists is paramartha. When Sri Ramana Maharishi was asked, " If the

jnani and ajnani see the world in the same manner then what is the difference

between them? " The sage answered, " Seeing the world the jnani sees the self as

the substratum of all while the ajnani sees only the world devoid of self. " The

Self is ever the substratum of everything. But one sees the Self in everything

and is regarded as a jnani and another sees everything except the self and is

called ajnani. Whatever is, is the Self. There is in truth only paramartha and

no vyavhara. This vyavhara we have created only from the standpoint of the world

of relativity. It is invalid if viewed devoid of Self and valid if viewed as a

manifestation of self.

I would also like to say something in defense of intellectual people. True many

have wasted their time in dry logic but on the positive side where a worldling

finds pleasure in gross sensuous things, the intellectual finds pleasure in his

intellect. He is a step higher than a worldly man. The problem comes when he

makes this as an end rather than a means to reach higher levels of truth. We

ought not condemn anyone. Its just our own attitude that determines our success.

If we idealize pleasure that is what we get, if logic etc then we will get only

that. One day all of us regardless of our strenghths and weaknesses will reach

that supreme abode of truth.

 

OM SAI RAM

 

Regards,

Vaibhav.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin , " ymoharir " <ymoharir wrote:

>

> advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste, all,

>

> > And also Sri Yaduji, says

> > << The real spirituality of our ancient concepts have a direct application

in our present life. If this is done only then there can be any value to what

sages have tried to document there understanding. Often scholars miss out this

important aspect and keep on discussing the " Snake & Rope " Analogy and have no

desire to apply that in our daily life. So, these folks are tapped in their

views and feel good, that they have understood he vedanta !? Academically that

is true but what good is knowledge if one does not use it, cannot use it or has

no desire to use it !!>>

> > << In my view this is the practical application of advaita. That is why the

student goes to the teacher and bum-bards him with questions. Once he is

satisfied then he becomes knowledgeable. Any of the analogies are only

illustrations created by the teaches to drive-in the core essence of

statements.>>

> >  

> <

> >  “Punarjanma, krama-mukti, etc.†yes, are all there in our tradition,

but they all are “hereafter†and I do not know what they exactly entail,

although there may be mention about it in the shruties, as taking another body,

etc. Respecting that, let them, i.e punarjana, karma-mukti, etc., happen or not

in future, as such happening or happening also will be “as if†or “ivaâ€

only.

> > Once again my sincere thanks to all and with kind regards,

> > R.S.Mani

> >  

> >

> >

> > R. S. Mani

> >

>

>

> Namaste Mani-Ji:

>

> IMO - Advaita provides us with a tool that can give us our own bearing and

possibly chart the future.

>

> Thus asking the question we know who are we ? and Where are we ? Our

observation is - R^ita, which can possibly lead the saadhaka towards satya.

Where one needs expert understanding is understanding between the observations

themselves. That function is served by a Guru. Ultimately the " Real Guru " is

in you yourself. When one performs gurusevaa that is not to be perceived as the

physical sevaa/service but the keep on asking the questions until you are

satisfied. It is up to the guru to come-up with illustrations or analogies and

help you crystallize the truth. That is veda proclaims - R^ite j~naanaana

muktiH Meaning - Lliberation is only through knowledge.

>

> Now coming back to punarjanma.

>

> IMO - punarjanma is happening at all time continuously while we are living as

an individual or as human beings as society. That is why " History Repeats

itself " as we (as individual or as leaders or as society) keep making the same

mistakes. Therefore our real objective is to try and recognize the mistakes

from our past, because we cannot change that we cannot acknowledge !!

Unfortunately using the diluted Sanskrit terminology often leads to more

confusion than answers, but one feels that they have understood and then they

become and remain only " vedaantina " .

>

> My apologies if I have diverted from the original query.

>

> Kind Regards,

>

> Dr. Yadu

>

[Guest guest]

Shree Vaibhav - PraNAms.

 

When someone says vyavahaara does not end - he is correct.

 

From paramaartha - there is no vyavahaara to end. There are no sajaati, vijaati

swagata bhedas in paramaartha. So ending and non-ending question never arises.

No further discussion from paaramaarthika point.

 

If someone says vyavahaara ends, it implies it is giving some reality for it

to end.

 

Ending of vyavahaara therefore is understanding that there is no real vyavaharaa

at any time to end, just as moksha means recognition that I was never bound.

 

What is there is only mithyaa. Hence Ramana says there is no bondage or

liberation - both are mithyaa only in agreement with nirvaana shatakam of

Shankara - na bandhaH na mokshaH - shivanaadaruupaH Shivoham Shivoham, which

Ramana echoes in Sadharshanam in sloka 41 (or 39 if one excludes the two

invocation slokas). Bondage and liberation are only notions in the mind. I am

ever liberated - nitya shuddha mukta swarupoham - I am of the nature of pure

ever free sat chit ananda swaruupa - Realization of this fact is moksha that

involves no ending no beginning no vyavahaara too to end or to put more

correctly the vyavahaara is reduced to mithyaa - and mithyaa by definition

cannot end and need not end like the images in the mirrors as long as mirrors

exist. Realization is to realize that is only an image and not real.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

--- On Tue, 5/26/09, vaibhav_narula21 <vaibhav_narula21 wrote:

 

 

 

It was said earlier in the discussion that vyavhara never ends. But it does.

What ever persists is paramartha....

[Guest guest]

Going by the writings of Gaudapada & Sankara, they are very lucid and straight

to the point. Unfortunately, the logicians / tarkikas have twisted them to suit

their tastes with avachedaka-avacheda vada-s etc..

 

To put it in simple terms:

 

World is Real (from vyavaharika standpoint). But the *reality* is *not* the way

you perceive, per se. Since our *wrong* perception regarding the *reality* of

the world is nullifed upon the dawn of *right* knowledge, hence, our perception

of the world is an illusion.

 

We see a beautiful palace in our dream. But when we wake up from sleep, we

cherish the beautiful vision of the palace in our dream but we are aware that it

is not real but a mere *dream* and is an illusion. Similarly, a jnani who is

awake (in a real sense), cherishes the *sequences in the world* as an Illusion

as we ordinary people cherish our dream after waking up.

 

But frankly speaking, when we are in dream state, the beautiful palace was

*real* to us from the stand point of *dream state* which is vyavaharika satta.

This *beautiful palace* disappeared and we perceived it to be an *illusion* when

we woke up from slumber.

 

So, the state of *waking up* is the paramarthika satta. So, this state of

*waking up* from the stand point of jnanis (who have really woken up), is the

paramarthika satta where the world *appears* to be an illusion.

 

This simple example has been wonderfully explained by Acharya Sankara in the 1st

sloka of dakshinamurthy stotra.

 

So, the Jnani is as much aware of the world as we are but a slight change of

*angle of vision* with complete knowledge of its illusory existence. And hence,

a jnani is also a perfect Karma Yogi as he remains unaffected, detached owing

to his knowledge of *illusory existence*.

 

But, even this *knowledge of illusory existence* vanishes in the 4th state of

consciousness where avadhutas abide. This was the state of Dattatreya,

Jadabharata, Suka Brahman, Vamadeva etc. This is the state where the

*awareness* that Aham Brahma Asmi also drops off.

 

That is why Acharya Gaudapada states this to be *Asparsha Yoga* which the vedas

declare *yato vacho nivartante aprapya manasa saha....*.

 

This is the state where even the Seer of *Nasadiya Sukta* of Rg veda stops in

ecstasy *kah addha veda kah ihah pra vochat kutah ajaata kutah iyam visrushti

arvaak devah asya visarjanena adha kah vedah yatah aababhuva*...

 

with regs,

sriram

 

with regs,

sriram

 

advaitin , " vaibhav_narula21 " <vaibhav_narula21

wrote:

>

>

> It was said earlier in the discussion that vyavhara never ends. But it does.

What ever persists is paramartha. When Sri Ramana Maharishi was asked, " If the

jnani and ajnani see the world in the same manner then what is the difference

between them? " The sage answered, " Seeing the world the jnani sees the self as

the substratum of all while the ajnani sees only the world devoid of self. " The

Self is ever the substratum of everything. But one sees the Self in everything

and is regarded as a jnani and another sees everything except the self and is

called ajnani. Whatever is, is the Self. There is in truth only paramartha and

no vyavhara. This vyavhara we have created only from the standpoint of the world

of relativity. It is invalid if viewed devoid of Self and valid if viewed as a

manifestation of self.

> I would also like to say something in defense of intellectual people. True

many have wasted their time in dry logic but on the positive side where a

worldling finds pleasure in gross sensuous things, the intellectual finds

pleasure in his intellect. He is a step higher than a worldly man. The problem

comes when he makes this as an end rather than a means to reach higher levels of

truth. We ought not condemn anyone. Its just our own attitude that determines

our success. If we idealize pleasure that is what we get, if logic etc then we

will get only that. One day all of us regardless of our strenghths and

weaknesses will reach that supreme abode of truth.

>

> OM SAI RAM

>

> Regards,

> Vaibhav.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

advaitin , " ymoharir " <ymoharir@> wrote:

> >

> > advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste, all,

> >

> > > And also Sri Yaduji, says

> > > << The real spirituality of our ancient concepts have a direct application

in our present life. If this is done only then there can be any value to what

sages have tried to document there understanding. Often scholars miss out this

important aspect and keep on discussing the " Snake & Rope " Analogy and have no

desire to apply that in our daily life. So, these folks are tapped in their

views and feel good, that they have understood he vedanta !? Academically that

is true but what good is knowledge if one does not use it, cannot use it or has

no desire to use it !!>>

> > > << In my view this is the practical application of advaita. That is why

the student goes to the teacher and bum-bards him with questions. Once he is

satisfied then he becomes knowledgeable. Any of the analogies are only

illustrations created by the teaches to drive-in the core essence of

statements.>>

> > >  

> > <

> > >  “Punarjanma, krama-mukti, etc.†yes, are all there in our tradition,

but they all are “hereafter†and I do not know what they exactly entail,

although there may be mention about it in the shruties, as taking another body,

etc. Respecting that, let them, i.e punarjana, karma-mukti, etc., happen or not

in future, as such happening or happening also will be “as if†or “ivaâ€

only.

> > > Once again my sincere thanks to all and with kind regards,

> > > R.S.Mani

> > >  

> > >

> > >

> > > R. S. Mani

> > >

> >

> >

> > Namaste Mani-Ji:

> >

> > IMO - Advaita provides us with a tool that can give us our own bearing and

possibly chart the future.

> >

> > Thus asking the question we know who are we ? and Where are we ? Our

observation is - R^ita, which can possibly lead the saadhaka towards satya.

Where one needs expert understanding is understanding between the observations

themselves. That function is served by a Guru. Ultimately the " Real Guru " is

in you yourself. When one performs gurusevaa that is not to be perceived as the

physical sevaa/service but the keep on asking the questions until you are

satisfied. It is up to the guru to come-up with illustrations or analogies and

help you crystallize the truth. That is veda proclaims - R^ite j~naanaana

muktiH Meaning - Lliberation is only through knowledge.

> >

> > Now coming back to punarjanma.

> >

> > IMO - punarjanma is happening at all time continuously while we are living

as an individual or as human beings as society. That is why " History Repeats

itself " as we (as individual or as leaders or as society) keep making the same

mistakes. Therefore our real objective is to try and recognize the mistakes

from our past, because we cannot change that we cannot acknowledge !!

Unfortunately using the diluted Sanskrit terminology often leads to more

confusion than answers, but one feels that they have understood and then they

become and remain only " vedaantina " .

> >

> > My apologies if I have diverted from the original query.

> >

> > Kind Regards,

> >

> > Dr. Yadu

> >

>