Guest guest Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Namaste all, Please allow me first to quote Swami Paramarthananda (Jivayatra 13): If a seeker goes through shravaNa manana properly, it will give clear knowledge, advaita Atma j~nAnam. If he clearly claims that I am nitya mukta Atma, by that very knowledge itself gained by shravaNam mananam, the journey is over. NididhyAsanam is only internalizing the end of the journey. It is not part of the journey. (...) But in the case of some sAdhakas even though the j~nAnam is very clear, they don't feel their journey is over. They always say, `there is j~nAnam , Swamiji, it is very, very clear Swamiji, but I can never claim I am a liberated person who has reached the destination. I don't have the courage to claim that, even though I have clear knowledge'. (...) The student with clear knowledge should claim I have reached the destination. How come some students claim I have clear knowledge but I have not reached the destination? Why? (...) when sAdhana catuShTaya sampatti is lacking, any amount of clear knowledge will not give the sense of pUrNatvam or the end of the journey. Because when sAdhana catuShTaya sampatti is lacking, an aha.nkAra which does not have sAdhana catuShTaya sampatti is a heavily loaded aha.nkAra. That is a powerful aha.nkAra. You cannot ignore that aha.nkAra by simply saying it is mithyA. Ignoring the aha.nkAra as mithyA is possible only when the aha.nkAra is sAdhana catuShTaya sampannaH. When that is missing, aha.nkAra is a loaded ahankAra. Therefore the person will be aha.nkAra pradhAna puruShaH. For such a person ignoring the aha.nkAra, as mithyA doesn't work. Even though the word mithyA is used, it is only a word, it does not happen. Therefore aha.nkAra is prominent and the ever free AtmA is underneath. Therefore aha.nkAra mithyAtvam is possible only when sAdhana catuShTaya sampatti is there. (I recommend very much reading the whole discourse and also JY14, both of which you find in the archives). From what Swamiji says here, I gather that self knowledge CAN dawn in a mind which is " not clean " (as Nairji put it), or I would say not entirely purified. So Sadhana sampatti (of which Om omits all points but viveka) is useful to still and clear the mind and gain jnana. But not absolutely necessary. Meditation might be as useful for some people. Still, without having viveka, vairagya, mumukshutvam and shatka sampatti, all your jnanam does not give you the SENSE of fullness. So, while the above qualifications might not be needed to realize, they seem, when lacking, to prevent the sense of having realized. I would appreciate learned members to comment and possibly give quotations of Sankara on this issue. Om Shanti Sitara advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani wrote: <<I have a doubt, however. Traditional masters call upon us to acquire chitta shuddhi through sAdhanA sampatti because only in a mind that is clean can self-knowledge dawn. Here, sAdhanA sampatti is a sort of pre-requisite. Can it be the other way round, i.e. can continued reflection and meditation on the lines suggested by Nome result in spontaneous chittashuddhi and self-realization>> > has been my doubt also. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote: Namaste all, Please allow me first to quote Swami Paramarthananda (Jivayatra 13): If a seeker goes through shravaNa manana properly, it will give clear knowledge, advaita Atma j~nAnam. If he clearly claims that I am nitya mukta Atma, by that very knowledge itself gained by shravaNam mananam, the journey is over. NididhyAsanam is only internalizing the end of the journey. It is not part of the journey. (...) But in the case of some sAdhakas even though the j~nAnam is very clear, they don't feel their journey is over. They always say, `there is j~nAnam , Swamiji, it is very, very clear Swamiji, but I can never claim I am a liberated person who has reached the destination. I don't have the courage to claim that, even though I have clear knowledge'. (...) The student with clear knowledge should claim I have reached the destination. How come some students claim I have clear knowledge but I have not reached the destination? Why? (...) when sAdhana catuShTaya sampatti is lacking, any amount of clear knowledge will not give the sense of pUrNatvam or the end of the journey. Because when sAdhana catuShTaya sampatti is lacking, an aha.nkAra which does not have sAdhana catuShTaya sampatti is a heavily loaded aha.nkAra. That is a powerful aha.nkAra. You cannot ignore that aha.nkAra by simply saying it is mithyA. Ignoring the aha.nkAra as mithyA is possible only when the aha.nkAra is sAdhana catuShTaya sampannaH. When that is missing, aha.nkAra is a loaded ahankAra. Therefore the person will be aha.nkAra pradhAna puruShaH. For such a person ignoring the aha.nkAra, as mithyA doesn't work. Even though the word mithyA is used, it is only a word, it does not happen. Therefore aha.nkAra is prominent and the ever free AtmA is underneath. Therefore aha.nkAra mithyAtvam is possible only when sAdhana catuShTaya sampatti is there. (I recommend very much reading the whole discourse and also JY14, both of which you find in the archives). From what Swamiji says here, I gather that self knowledge CAN dawn in a mind which is " not clean " (as Nairji put it), or I would say not entirely purified. So Sadhana sampatti (of which Om omits all points but viveka) is useful to still and clear the mind and gain jnana. But not absolutely necessary. Meditation might be as useful for some people. Still, without having viveka, vairagya, mumukshutvam and shatka sampatti, all your jnanam does not give you the SENSE of fullness. So, while the above qualifications might not be needed to realize, they seem, when lacking, to prevent the sense of having realized. I would appreciate learned members to comment and possibly give quotations of Sankara on this issue. Om Shanti Sitara advaitin , " R.S.MANI " <r_s_mani@> wrote: <<I have a doubt, however. Traditional masters call upon us to acquire chitta shuddhi through sAdhanA sampatti because only in a mind that is clean can self-knowledge dawn. Here, sAdhanA sampatti is a sort of pre-requisite. Can it be the other way round, i.e. can continued reflection and meditation on the lines suggested by Nome result in spontaneous chittashuddhi and self-realization>> > has been my doubt also. > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote: > > Namaste all, > > Please allow me first to quote Swami Paramarthananda (Jivayatra 13): > > If a seeker goes through shravaNa manana properly, it will give clear knowledge, > advaita Atma j~nAnam. If he clearly claims that I am nitya mukta Atma, by that > very knowledge itself gained by shravaNam mananam, the journey is over. > NididhyAsanam is only internalizing the end of the journey. It is not part of the > journey. > (...) > But in the case of some sAdhakas even though the j~nAnam is > very clear, they don't feel their journey is over. > (...) > when sAdhana catuShTaya sampatti is lacking, any amount of clear knowledge will not give the sense of pUrNatvam or the end of the journey. > (I recommend very much reading the whole discourse and also JY14, both of which you find in the archives). > > > From what Swamiji says here, I gather that self knowledge CAN dawn in a mind which is " not clean " (as Nairji put it), or I would say not entirely purified. > > > So, while the above qualifications might not be needed to realize, they seem, when lacking, to prevent the sense of having realized. > > I would appreciate learned members to comment and possibly give quotations of Sankara on this issue. > > Om Shanti > Sitara Namaste Sri Sitaraji, While I am not able to give you any quotations of Shankara on this issue, (although I do think that it is dealt with to some extent in the later verses of 'Aparoksha Anubhuti'), I would say that your analysis of what Swamiji is saying is correct. This is a topic which we discuss a lot in our Vedanta class. This phenomena (in a way) even has a name, 'jnanam with pratibandhakahs,' (knowledge with obstructions). In class, we generally speak of these pratibandhakahs, using the language of psychology, because these 'as it were' obstructions, usually have their origin in unresolved psychological issues. Swami Dayanandaji also addresses the topic of unresolved psychological issues a lot when he is teaching, in my experience. In class, we don't speak of this as a mind which is 'unclean' (as that can be a pretty loaded description), but rather as a mind, all aspects of which, have not yet 'lived up to one's knowledge.' So, these days this is spoken of and addressed using psychological terms and techniques as far as I am aware. This is a helpful way to deal with the issue, IMO. It is a kind of nididhyasanam, in that you sit with what you have recognized to be true, 'I am that brahman unchanging,' and then the changing thoughts, moods and emotions of the mind, if difficult, are examined in light of one's knowledge. They are examined not not in a negative way, but in a positive way. They are examined from a place of love and wholeness, which is the true nature of the self. We do a lot of meditations of this nature in class. I think in ancient times, people were advised to meditate in order to clear 'kasayahs,' (which my Sanskrit glossary translates as " Stain; coloration of the mind. " ) So, I think this is a way to do that, but the way itself has been brought out, highlighted, and elucidated more clearly by teachers of this era, who are familiar with the psychological difficulties that people raised in these times, and these cultures now have. The teacher's ability to do this, IMO, is one of the beauties of the teachings of Vedanta in the hands of someone like Pujya Swamiji Dayananda, who takes the teachings, and while completely maintaining the integrity of the teachings, which show the student directly that 'I am brahman unchanging,' also makes them relevant and available for those of our time by directly addressing the problems which seekers of this era may have. Pranams, Durga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Dear Durgaji, Pranams thank you very much for your interesting post, especially the bit about how you deal with the pratibandhakahs in class. I think there are many valuable methods that can be used, if handled by a good teacher in the right context. But examining the pratibandhakahs > from a place of love and wholeness, which is the true nature of the self. certainly is the most effective frame to place them in, as they cannot but dissolve in it. Om Shanti, Sitara > In class, we generally speak of these pratibandhakahs, > using the language of psychology, because these > 'as it were' obstructions, usually have their > origin in unresolved psychological issues. > > Swami Dayanandaji also addresses the topic of > unresolved psychological issues a lot when > he is teaching, in my experience. > > In class, we don't speak of this as a mind which > is 'unclean' (as that can be a pretty loaded description), > but rather as a mind, all aspects of which, have not yet > 'lived up to one's knowledge.' > > So, these days this is spoken of and addressed using > psychological terms and techniques as far as I am aware. > > This is a helpful way to deal with the issue, IMO. > It is a kind of nididhyasanam, in that you sit with > what you have recognized to be true, 'I am that > brahman unchanging,' and then the changing thoughts, > moods and emotions of the mind, if difficult, are examined > in light of one's knowledge. They are examined not > not in a negative way, but in a positive way. They > are examined from a place of love and wholeness, which > is the true nature of the self. > > We do a lot of meditations of this nature in class. > > I think in ancient times, people were advised to > meditate in order to clear 'kasayahs,' (which my > Sanskrit glossary translates as " Stain; coloration > of the mind. " ) > > So, I think this is a way to do that, but the way itself has > been brought out, highlighted, and elucidated more clearly > by teachers of this era, who are familiar with the > psychological difficulties that people raised > in these times, and these cultures now have. > > The teacher's ability to do this, IMO, is one of > the beauties of the teachings of Vedanta in the > hands of someone like Pujya Swamiji Dayananda, > who takes the teachings, and while completely > maintaining the integrity of the teachings, > which show the student directly that 'I am > brahman unchanging,' also makes them relevant > and available for those of our time by directly > addressing the problems which seekers of this era > may have. > > Pranams, > Durga > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote: > > Dear Durgaji, > > Pranams > > thank you very much for your interesting post, especially the bit about how you deal with the pratibandhakahs in class. > > I think there are many valuable methods that can be used, if handled by a good teacher in the right context. > > But examining the pratibandhakahs > > > from a place of love and wholeness, which is the true nature of the self. > > certainly is the most effective frame to place them in, as they cannot but dissolve in it. > > Om Shanti, > Sitara > Namaste Sitaraji, Thank you also for pointing out Swamiji's unfoldment of verse 8 of Jiva Yatra, which I read after I replied to your post. I found it very interesting to see the way another teacher from within the sampradaya as that in which I study treats this issue. Like so many things in the teachings of Vedanta, it sheds light from another angle upon an aspect of the teachings which may prove very useful. Such is Ishwara's grace! Pranams, Durga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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