The Unreal Can Cause the Real

[Guest guest]

advaitin , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrot that the

previous way was a mistake.

>

>

>

> Also I don't think I mentioned mAyA, did I? mAyA is just as much mithyA as

> the world that we claim as the 'caused appearance'. It is all just an

> interim teaching until we can see the full picture.

>

>

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Dennis

>

> <<<

> All those words that you use illusion/delusion, real/unreal are drawn from

> your experience on the everyday plane. Have you any rational grounds for

> the transference of these polar concepts to a plane which is beyond

> experience. If you haven't, are you not open to the charge that what you

> are making is a counter-intuitive assertion that is wholly a matter of

> faith? By the way is the flight to such assertions about illusion not the

> basis for the mayavadin sneer? In any case the immediate appeal to the

> Maya Doctrine is not the recourse of Shankara particularly in Upa.Sah. and

> B.S.B. From an examination of the nature of knowledge and knowing we are

> led to a view that suggests unrestricted being and consciousness.

> |||||||||||||||||||

>

> Dear Dennis,

> If all there were to this path were faith and a handful of analogies a

> pamphlet would cover it all and we could all go home to tea. However it

> is not even though it would be a great saving of mental energy, banana

> leaves and paper. If you read Chap.II of Upa.Sah. you will find that the

> disciple questions the assertion of the teacher and requires that the

> knots of Vedic wisdom be teased apart and the line of coherent rational

> explication of the concepts of identity and awareness be made clear.

>

> Best Wishes,

> Michael.

>

Namaste,

 

Teasing the threads, peeling the onion, are all the same terminology of neti

neti really.........All concepts need to be dropped including the concept that

we are a person or one of the 5 kosas..as Sankara points out in the

Vivekachudamani. It is not a matter of 'Aham Brahmasmi', but of 'Who am

I'...Cheers Tony.

[Guest guest]

Yes, you are not wrong (right even)! I don't take back anything that I said

but, to avoid confusion, would add the words " according to the teaching of

advaita " .

 

 

 

I think the point is that the 'bottom line' of advaita is not derivable via

reason. (I'm pretty sure Shankara says as much somewhere in the first

chapter of the brahma sutra bhAShya.) You are right in assuming that the

initial step is one of faith. But I don't see this as faith in the

derogatory sense that is often used when talking about, say, fundamentalist

Christians. It is faith in the sense of 'trusting in the words of those who

have shown themselves to be trustworthy'. The prompting for that 'bottom

line' comes from shruti and guru and we then subject what they say to

reason

and experience until the moment comes when we are certain that what they

have said is true. That is mokSha and then, providing we have also gained

understanding of the techniques of shruti and guru, we are in the position

to give prompting to others.

 

 

 

I think there are adequate rational grounds for believing this process to

work.

 

 

 

Having said all that, I still don't like your words " plane which is beyond

experience " . There is no such plane as I (think) I said before. It is

rather

a case of seeing that the way we used to look at the world (assuming

separation) was wrong and that what we have been seeing all along is simply

name and form of one unchanging reality. When we realize that the mirage is

not water but only refraction of light over a hot surface, there is no

change in the plane of experience. It is simply that we see the situation

in

a totally new way, realizing that the previous way was a mistake.

 

 

 

Also I don't think I mentioned mAyA, did I? mAyA is just as much mithyA as

the world that we claim as the 'caused appearance'. It is all just an

interim teaching until we can see the full picture.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

<<<

All those words that you use illusion/delusion, real/unreal are drawn from

your experience on the everyday plane. Have you any rational grounds for

the transference of these polar concepts to a plane which is beyond

experience. If you haven't, are you not open to the charge that what you

are making is a counter-intuitive assertion that is wholly a matter of

faith? By the way is the flight to such assertions about illusion not the

basis for the mayavadin sneer? In any case the immediate appeal to the

Maya Doctrine is not the recourse of Shankara particularly in Upa.Sah. and

B.S.B. From an examination of the nature of knowledge and knowing we are

led to a view that suggests unrestricted being and consciousness.

|||||||||||||||||||

 

Dear Dennis,

If all there were to this path were faith and a handful of analogies a

pamphlet would cover it all and we could all go home to tea. However it

is not even though it would be a great saving of mental energy, banana

leaves and paper. If you read Chap.II of Upa.Sah. you will find that the

disciple questions the assertion of the teacher and requires that the

knots of Vedic wisdom be teased apart and the line of coherent rational

explication of the concepts of identity and awareness be made clear.

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.

[Guest guest]

Dear Michael,

 

 

 

Quite so, but the fact remains that the bare assertions - all there is is

brahman; you are That etc - are not *derivable* by reason. We use reason to

show that such statements are not incompatible with experience; indeed they

are found ultimately to explain everything. But they begin life as

un-provable propositions. That is the point.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

Of ombhurbhuva

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 12:04 AM

advaitin

The Unreal Can Cause the Real

 

 

 

 

Dear Dennis,

If all there were to this path were faith and a handful of analogies a

pamphlet would cover it all and we could all go home to tea. However it

is not even though it would be a great saving of mental energy, banana

leaves and paper. If you read Chap.II of Upa.Sah. you will find that the

disciple questions the assertion of the teacher and requires that the

knots of Vedic wisdom be teased apart and the line of coherent rational

explication of the concepts of identity and awareness be made clear.

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.