Guest guest Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Posted on behalf of - --- Sitara Mitali <smitali17 schrieb am Di, 25.8.2009: Von: Sitara Mitali <smitali17 Betreff: sharira trayam An: " advaitins " <advaitins Datum: Dienstag, 25. August 2009, 12:48 Namaskaram Advaitins, researching into sharira trayam I realize quite some mix up in my mind, especially - concerning what happens with the shariras after physical death, - concerning the nature of karana sharira as such - and concerning pralayam. Therefore I request the learned members of the group to please shed some light. First allow me to outline my understanding so far: For jiva as well as jivanmukti stoohla sharira dies with physical death. For the jiva sukshma sharira survives death and then travels to " find " another physical body. For the jivanmukti sukshma sharira dies with physical death. For the jivanmukti karana sharira dies with liberation. If this so far is correct, question no 1: From Swami Paramarthanandaji I have learned that karana sharira dies with liberation. I understand this to mean that as the jivanmukti has stopped taking maya for real, karana sharira " dissolves " . Right or not? question no 2: Karana sharira being maya seems to be entirely collective - but as it is part of sharira trayam I would think that it must also have an individual aspect. If this is so, in what way is it " attached " to the individual jiva. Is it " attached " entirely through belief in its reality? Or is there another concept regarding this question? question no 3: as far as I understand, only sukshma sharira travels after physical death. Karana sharira does not travel. It is the " pool " into which stoohla and sukshma sharira merge in physical death and (for the jiva) out of which they emerge again . Right or not? question no 4: In pralayam: Do all the sukshma shariras of the jivas merge into karana sharira ? Does karana sharira being maya survive pralayam in dormant form? Om Shanti Sitara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 advaitin , " advaitins " <advaitins wrote: > > Posted on behalf of Sitara Mitali <smitali17: > > From Swami Paramarthanandaji I have learned that karana sharira dies >with liberation. > > I understand this to mean that as the jivanmukti has stopped taking > maya for real, karana sharira " dissolves " . > > Right or not? Hari OM! Whatever answer given by whoever, how to know if that is right! Dying only proves what is right, but when living what is right is a theory. Difficult and strange situation. Even when asleep we don't know what happens to the body. Only upon waking we realise nothing happened to body, or just shifted on bed. May be, liberation is also like true waking up, which then reveals it as direct experience. Till then we can only do self-effort/sadhana. ==================== Hari OM! -Srinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Dear Sitara, If you try to reason out the fine detail of this, you are bound to become unstuck. In the alAta shAnti prakaraNa (4th chapter of the mANDUkya kArikA-s), Gaudapada systematically refutes the theory of karma on the grounds that, however you try to relate karma and sharIra, you are bound to run into logical inconsistencies and fallacies. You are eventually forced to accept that there has never been any creation of world or jIva (ajAtivAda). You should just stick with the simple idea that the attitude to our actions brings inevitable consequences that, in turn, affect our future behavior. This interim belief persuades us to cultivate 'right' action, which then helps to discipline the mind, direct attention, increase discrimination etc, all of which help prepare for receiving the Self-knowledge that can bring about realization. Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Dear Sitara, > If you try to reason out the fine detail of this, you are bound to become unstuck. Dear Dennis, What an interesting lapsus... since what we really want is to become " unstuck " from all these theories that limit " us " as jivas... I suppose you meant " you are bound to become stuck " , correct? Regards, Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Sitara Mitali <smitali17 wrote: > > Dear Mouna, > I think Dennis did mean unstuck, at least it makes sense from what he said afterwords: > You are eventually forced to > accept that there has never been any creation of world or jIva (ajAtivAda). > ( meaning: if you get into reasoning about this) AAAAhhh, good logic Sitara, thank you for the clarification. Hoping for " unstuckness " , Mouna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Hi Mouna, It is an idiomatic expression. According to the OED, it means " to fail completely " as in " all their clever ideas came unstuck. " Apologies if this expression is unfamiliar to readers! (Although I expect that the expression 'lapsus (linguae)' is even less familiar! I certainly haven't encountered it and I studied Latin at school.) Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of carlosartista2000 Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:20 PM advaitin Re: sharira trayam " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Dear Sitara, > If you try to reason out the fine detail of this, you are bound to become unstuck. Dear Dennis, What an interesting lapsus... since what we really want is to become " unstuck " from all these theories that limit " us " as jivas... I suppose you meant " you are bound to become stuck " , correct? Regards, Mouna __ .. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=4 6261/stime=1251318071/nc1=4507179/nc2=3848583/nc3=5741392> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 pranams! Personally I would have preferred if learned members gave the answers as they are available in our scriptures related to the question, and then let the questioners decide to themselves. Can't we be curious just for the knowledge sake? In AlataSanti 3rd Karika Pujya Sri Gaudapada says - " Kecit vadinah bhutasya jatim icchanti Apare dhirah Abhutasya " some philosophers, debaters accept the birth (referring to Sankhyas), and the other talk the opposite " --- which is so true... curious is the mind so why not! Even though we know what is " ajatavada " , we may still be curious on what are those referances made about... So in my humble opinion, I would still prefer Sitaraji's questions answered --- question specific answers... Love & Light, Madhava advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Dear Sitara, > > > > If you try to reason out the fine detail of this, you are bound to become > unstuck. In the alAta shAnti prakaraNa (4th chapter of the mANDUkya > kArikA-s), Gaudapada systematically refutes the theory of karma on the > grounds that, however you try to relate karma and sharIra, you are bound to > run into logical inconsistencies and fallacies. You are eventually forced to > accept that there has never been any creation of world or jIva (ajAtivAda). > You should just stick with the simple idea that the attitude to our actions > brings inevitable consequences that, in turn, affect our future behavior. > This interim belief persuades us to cultivate 'right' action, which then > helps to discipline the mind, direct attention, increase discrimination etc, > all of which help prepare for receiving the Self-knowledge that can bring > about realization. > > > > Best wishes, > > Dennis > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Sitaraji, Please find giving below an excerpt from articles I have been writing published by http://www.hindutoday.org this may give an explanation for what happens to the body at the vyavaharika level... Love & Light, Madhava ============= As per Hindu scriptures this universe is made of Love. In Love there is absolute silence and the feeling of love is wonderful; it is inexplicable. When Sadasiva (Consciousness) is in union with his wife UmaParvati (Matter), there is only silence, there is no creation. Rigveda Nasadiya Sukta explains this state in a beautiful way -- " There was neither death nor immortality then. There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day. That one breathed, windless, by its own impulse. Other than that there was nothing beyond..... Desire came upon that one in the beginning; that was the first seed of mind. Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom found the bond of existence in non-existence. " (Creation Hymn in Rigveda 10.129) There was only silence and only union. But for some strange reason desire came upon and " He+She " decided to become many (tadaikyshate bahusyaam prajAyeyEti --- Mundaka Upanishad). As per the Hindu creation theories when Sadasiva is in union with his wife there is no creation. When their union breaks, the creation takes place! To avoid confusion their union is not completely broken.. actually at one level they are inseparable. But in humans, for our understanding, please consider that their union is broken. As per Hindu theories, matter (wife of Siva -- Umaparvati) consists of five gross elements (three subtle elements about which we will discuss later). She becomes the body and her core principle power (shakti) is coiled like a serpent and stays at a place called Muladhara. She gives power to the body. When she merges back with Siva, death happens to the human body. The union of Shiva and Shakti causes the body to drop. The Yogis, with their practise, raise the Shakti to a certain extent to harness its power for the sake of the universe. The Kundalini travels through Nadis through what is called Kulamarga, a kind of autobahn, to reach Sadasiva. Prana is what propels her. Prana can be understood as the fuel. You can see in 36th sloka Sri Hanuma holds the Prana in his heart and speaks. This is what a Yogi does to harness the kundalini power. A mahayogi can fly when he holds the prana at the anahata chakra (heart) i.e. Kundalini force is concentrated there. Something happens to all of us at one time or the other --- something called death. For Hindus this death is nothing but Shakti (wife) reunion with Siva (Husband). At that time the physical body drops and we call that state as Death. Mahayogis through their sadhana can take the Shakti to the near proximity to Siva --- such state is called Samadhi in Sanskrit. Normal Human, unfortunately can not enjoy the state of samadhi, as it happens everyday during the deepsleep (he can only have the memory of the happiness once he wakes up). There is also a state called Mahasamadhi which is Death! So yogis continuously strive to attain the state of Samadhi, which is common to all beings experienced during the deep sleep, in a conscious way. That is why meditation is nothing but deep sleep with awareness. Because the Yogis are aware, they bask in the glory of Sat Cit and Ananda. They enjoy the bliss and reach that state again and again. In simple terms, to explain the power of Shiva+Parvati, I must humbly request you to recollect what happens after the death of the human body! There is this mystery of death where the being ceases to exist. Thereafter, if you closely watch, there are these following changes that take place in the dead body; you can visibly watch the five elements (pancha bhutas) depart: a) Air Element (vaayu): At first the breath stops (first visible sign of death --- the body stops breathing). So Air element departed. b) Fire Element (agni): If you leave the body like that, slowly the body starts losing its heat, bringing up the expression 'dead cold'. It is the second element Fire departing. c) Water Element (apas): Further, if you leave the body like that, then slowly water starts dripping out of the body and the entire water goes off making the body just skin attached to the bones. d) Earth Element (prudhivi): After the water goes away, what remains of the body is skin and bones. If you leave the body like that, slowly the bones and skin descend into the earth and eventually the body disappears, as it gets consumed by various scavenger beings. e) Ether Element (Akasa): After the first four elements are gone, the space that is occupied by the body --- five foot eight inches tall and one foot wide, and half a foot in depth --- just merges back into space. Thus you can clearly see in the death process how the Skakti withdraws herself in the union of Siva. As per the tantra sastra, the Shakti that holds the above five elements, wife if Siva is called " the Kundalini " . It is also known as the serpent power. It is the female force and compared to a passionate lover. Once awakened, this force tries to go upwards -- just like a flame trying to reach the sky --- this kundalini tries to reach the Sadasiva who resides in the Crown chakra (top of the head). During this travel, the Kundalini shakti may get hindered and has to go through 5 other chakras to reach the Sahasrara. If this power is intelligently harnessed, then the sadhaka (practitioner of such a yoga) will be able to accomplish powers (Siddhis). The powers that are natural in the universe, which are natural to the five elements get accomplished by the Yogi. Also one more very important point to note is that some people die with their mouths open, some die with their eyes wide open! So when death happens prana departs from various openings of the body. But for a Mahayogi, when death happens, you can notice a hairline crack in his cranium. When Shakti naturally merges with Sadasiva the soul no longer reincarnates. The visible symbol of this type of merging is a slight hairline crack in the cranium. This is called Kapala Moksha in India. As a symbol of showing this Kapala Moksha even today, traditional Hindus break a cocoanut on the skull of their departed Guru. However, when the prana departs from places other than the cranium (kapala moksha), we are certain that the soul is going to reincarnate. Because the Shakti is still separate from Siva, she may not be separated in this limited human body that has undergone death, but she is still separated in the form of the world! The final merging happens during Maha Pralaya when the whole world ceases to exist... This Shakti that is forming our body, this Kundalini, is the powerhouse. She travels through the following chakras to reach Siva. Muladhara ( & #2350; & #2370; & #2354; & #2366; & #2343; & #2366; & #2352;) Base or Root Chakra Swadhisthana ( & #2360; & #2381; & #2357; & #2366; & #2343; & #2367; & #2359; & #2381; & #2336; & #2366; & #2344;) Sacral Chakra Manipura ( & #2350; & #2339; & #2367; & #2346; & #2370; & #2352;) Solar Plexus Chakra (navel area) Anahata ( & #2309; & #2344; & #2366; & #2361; & #2340;) Heart Chakra (heart area) Vishuddha ( & #2357; & #2367; & #2358; & #2369; & #2342; & #2381; & #2343;) Throat Chakra (throat and neck area) Ajna ( & #2310; & #2332; & #2381; & #2334; & #2366;) Brow or Third Eye Chakra (pineal gland or third eye) Sahasrara ( & #2360; & #2361; & #2360; & #2381; & #2352; & #2366; & #2352;) Crown Chakra (Top of the head; 'Soft spot' of a newborn) Also in human bodies, Shakti keeps trying to reach Shiva all the time. This travel is also called Time. Reaching Shiva is the goal of Shakti. Just as a passionate lover tries various means of reaching the beloved, Shakti, like a faithful wife, constantly tries reaching Shiva. As I said, death for the human body happens when the Shakti finally reaches Siva. This is also one of the reasons why Hindus never consider death of physical body as the end of story. The soul reincarnates again and again till the final merging happens. During the travel to various chakras, corresponding Siddhis unfold. For example, when the Shakti reaches Swadhisthana, the power of Anima (becoming as small as an atom) manifests. People who desire absolute privacy basically have their kundalini power at Swadhistana and they seldom know this! Unknowingly they are soliciting the power of Anima. An accomplished Mahayogi like Sri Hanuma can use the full power of Anima siddhi. Sri Hanuma invoked the power of Anima at two places, when he entered into the mouth of demon Simhika, and when he tried to enter Lanka. As you know, he became very small as if invisible! ================ advaitin , " advaitins " <advaitins wrote: > > Posted on behalf of - > > --- Sitara Mitali <smitali17 schrieb am Di, 25.8.2009: > > > Von: Sitara Mitali <smitali17 > Betreff: sharira trayam > An: " advaitins " <advaitins > Datum: Dienstag, 25. August 2009, 12:48 > > Namaskaram Advaitins, > > researching into sharira trayam I realize quite some mix up in my mind, especially > > - concerning what happens with the shariras after physical death, > - concerning the nature of karana sharira as such > - and concerning pralayam. > > Therefore I request the learned members of the group to please shed some light. > > First allow me to outline my understanding so far: > > For jiva as well as jivanmukti stoohla sharira dies with physical death. > > For the jiva sukshma sharira survives death and then travels to " find " another physical body. > > For the jivanmukti sukshma sharira dies with physical death. > > For the jivanmukti karana sharira dies with liberation. > > If this so far is correct, > > question no 1: > > From Swami Paramarthanandaji I have learned that karana sharira dies with liberation. > > I understand this to mean that as the jivanmukti has stopped taking maya for real, karana sharira " dissolves " . > > Right or not? > > > question no 2: > > Karana sharira being maya seems to be entirely collective - but as it is part of sharira trayam I would think that it must also have an individual aspect. If this is so, in what way is it " attached " to the individual jiva. Is it " attached " entirely through belief in its reality? Or is there another concept regarding this question? > > > question no 3: > > as far as I understand, only sukshma sharira travels after physical death. Karana sharira does not travel. It is the " pool " into which stoohla and sukshma sharira merge in physical death and (for the jiva) out of which they emerge again . > > Right or not? > > question no 4: > > In pralayam: > > Do all the sukshma shariras of the jivas merge into karana sharira ? > > Does karana sharira being maya survive pralayam in dormant form? > > > > Om Shanti > > > Sitara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Dear Madhava-ji, I was certainly not precluding other's answering the question at the level which you would like. But the fact remains that, in the final analysis, this is tantamount to discussing whether or not the snake is poisonous, what the antidote might be, how far it is to the nearest hospital etc, when all the time what we have in front of us is actually a rope. Obviously I appreciate that the theory of karma exists for those who are still in thrall to the world-delusion, which is why I suggested that simply accepting the basic ideas is sufficient, without trying to pin everything down to the finer detail. This will never be possible. Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of mturumella Thursday, August 27, 2009 3:56 PM advaitin Re: sharira trayam pranams! Personally I would have preferred if learned members gave the answers as they are available in our scriptures related to the question, and then let the questioners decide to themselves. Can't we be curious just for the knowledge sake? .. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=4 6273/stime=1251384958/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Dear Sitara, I do respect your aims and certainly did not want to discourage them. Can I recommend the following book as particularly valuable on this subject (in fact I am not aware of any other that specifically addresses it): “Karma and Reincarnation†by Swami Muni Narayana Prasad.  Paperback: 106 pages  Publisher: DK Print World; 1 edition (January 1, 1999)  Language: English  ISBN-10: 8124600228  ISBN-13: 978-8124600221 It is very readable! Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Sitara Mitali Thursday, August 27, 2009 6:39 PM advaitin AW: Re: sharira trayam << >> So, even if there is no ultimate answer to those questions, not even on vyavaharika level, I am still interested in the different viewpoints that exist in this respect. And I hope that I am not stealing anybodies time here. For myself I have to say that these purely philosophical musings are very good for sharpening the intellect and developing more viveka. Om Shanti Sitara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 > researching into sharira trayam I realize quite some mix up in my mind, ----------------- Dear Sitaraji, namaskAraH! I just wish to add my understanding of the concept of sharIra traya without directly addressing the questions you have raised. SrI SurESvarAchArya explains in his taittirIya vArtika that the panchakOSAs are formed at two levels viz., asmad(vyashTi) and yushmad(samashTi). At samashTi level, these panchakOSas are named as, annakOSa, prANakOSa, manOkOSa, vijnAnakOSa and AnandakOSa. The panchakOSas that we speak of at the individual level are kArya/vikAra(effect/modification) of those at the samashTi level. So, at the individual level, annamayakOSa is nothing but a vikAra or effect of the annakOSa which is its cause. Similarly, the other four kOSas are modifications of their respective samashTi kOSas and are named as prANamayakOSa, manOmayakOSa, vijnAnamayakOSa and AnandamayakOSa. This knowledge of kOSas at both the 'individual' and the 'total' levels, helps one in achieving laya(dissolution) of these kOSas. Since effect is not intrinsically different from the cause, annamayakOSa is understood to be the annakOSa itself. Therefore, similar to a water drop that falls into an ocean, one has to lose the sense of individuality in terms of body and experience the oneness with the virAT(physical totality). In the same way, the vyashTi forms of other kOSas are dissolved into their respective samashTi forms. Next, the grosser kOSas are dissolved back into the finer kOSas since, the former were derived from the latter as described in the panchIkaraNa prakriyA. In this way, ones identity is traced back to the source i.e., bliss of Atman. While the sole purpose of the above theory is to make one understand the totality of his being and therefore aid in the process of " laya " /dissolution of his individuality, it also gives us new insights into the concepts of re-incarnation, karma etc. From AchArya SurESvarAchArya's explanation in the vArtikA quoted above, we can understand that the individual or jIva has 5 kOSas, all of which are but modifications of the 5 kOSas which make up the whole universe. By whole universe I mean all the 14 worlds. What happens at death? The physical body falls off. jIva is left with his sUkshma and kAraNa sharIras. According to scriptures, such a jIva is called as prEta who may acquire a new body sheath made up of elements such as Fire, Ether, Water, Air etc., from the food offered as tarpana during the shrAddha ritual done unto him. This new sheath when it is forming, it is like he is entering a new plane of existence. It is just similar to a new birth in the physical plane, except that instead of a physical body, he acquires a special body depending upon his karmas. In this way, when a particular sheath like bhOga dEha is formed, every stimulus he gets to that sheath evokes only pleasure unlike the pain-pleasure duality of the physical world. And this bhOga dEha is an individual sheath which at samashTi level is a plane of existence named swarga. Similarly, yAtana dEha corresponds to naraka where every stimulus evokes only pain. We need to understand that normally a jIva's presence spans through the major 5 planes of existence when he is alive and his awareness moves from one plane to another, like he is aware of all five kOSas during wakefulness, only 3 during dreaming state and only one during deep sleep state. ## From all this, I want to make it clear that the word as " Travelling " used for the soul after death, is misleading as we tend to imagine of it as " travelling " in the space that we know, while in fact this travel is something else, a " slide " between different planes of existence. A simple example can be given for this: Going to heaven, hell, world of pitRis etc., is like wearing different types of coloured glasses. By wearing green coloured glasses, you change your physical appearance and even the world starts appearing green to you. Change it to red, everything before you changes to red. Similarly, whatever special body a soul(Atman bound with sUkshma sharIra) acquires, accordingly, the soul enters that particular plane of existence of which the soul's special body is a vikAra. Thanks for reading! Yours Sampath ~ !! Aum namO brahmavidbhyaH !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 NamaskaraH, sampathji, Thanks for the nice explanation. I was not able to put the same explanation in mail. Regards, Vidhumouli " Yekam Sat VipraH bahuDha vadanti " --- On Fri, 8/28/09, paramahamsavivekananda <paramahamsavivekananda wrote: Note from the List Moderators: Members while sending your replies, please do not include the messages of the previous posters (such messages are available for members in the list archive). Cut and paste only the relevant part of the message with your reply. (The tail portion of this message was deleted to keep the message crisp and easy to follow) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Pranams Sitara-ji You have raised some very interesting questions and I shall answer based on my understanding. I do not know if these are as complete or comprehensive in their ability to answer your questions. *** " For jiva as well as jivanmukti stoohla sharira dies with physical death. For the jiva sukshma sharira survives death and then travels to " find " another physical body. For the jivanmukti sukshma sharira dies with physical death. For the jivanmukti karana sharira dies with liberation. " *** A suskhma shareera that still has a balance of prarabdha - you can think of this as residual energy which needs to be exhausted - that very prarabdha demans of the Order an equipment for its next round of exhaustion. The karana " shareera " is the background field/the Great UnManifest or avyakta which enables this to take place. So no jiva - be he a jivanmukta or a nonjivanmukta - in the words of Shankara " from Brahma-ji to a blade of grass " ..is ever born and so there is no question of death for the jivA. Sthula-sukshma shareera bundles go through of endless cycle of birth and death, with the background avyaktA enabling (hence karana) this to take place as per Ishwara's Order. *** question no 1: From Swami Paramarthanandaji I have learned that karana sharira dies with liberation. I understand this to mean that as the jivanmukti has stopped taking maya for real, karana sharira " dissolves " . Right or not? *** This dissolution is technically termed pravilapanam. It is not a physical dissolution but an understanding of the effect being mithyA. So effect gets resolved into cause and once resolved is as good as being nonexistent. So entire anatma prapancha including all the koshas and the shareeras are all understood as being the AtmA alone. There is nothing other than Atma to dissolve or to dissolve into - there is no dissolution other than Atma either. From a material standpoint, the elements constituting the sthula-sukshma shareeras have lost any residual prarabhda or charge or energy and so there is no further continuation of the process of rebirth. *** question no 2: Karana sharira being maya seems to be entirely collective - but as it is part of sharira trayam I would think that it must also have an individual aspect. If this is so, in what way is it " attached " to the individual jiva. Is it " attached " entirely through belief in its reality? Or is there another concept regarding this question? *** The attachment is in the sense of the abhimana that " I am this body " - in terms of the self-identification or superimposition. If you analyze, not just the karana shareera but even the sthula shareeram is never " attached " - it is I the Atma that seemingly superimposes the properties of the anatma and claim ownership....instead of identifying myself with the sentiency - that by which the eyes are enabled to see - and instead mis-identify myself and say " 'I' see the tree with 'my' eyes - Shankara calls this " aham idam mama idam naisargikoyam lokavayabhara. So in this context one can understand the karana shareera as Avyakta, or Maya - as having both Cosmic and individual aspects - only thing while the sthula and sukshma bundles are manifest, the karana shareera is unmnaifest/potential. *** question no 3: as far as I understand, only sukshma sharira travels after physical death. Karana sharira does not travel. It is the " pool " into which stoohla and sukshma sharira merge in physical death and (for the jiva) out of which they emerge again. Right or not? *** Yes. The ocean analogy may be quite appropriate here. Bubbles form on the surface of the Ocean. Let us imagine each bubble that forms to have formed as a result of some latent energy that results in the transformation of placid water into the bubbles and upon its dissolution there is still some residual energy that needs to find expression in the form of another bubble. Strictly from the standpoint of the Ocean the bubbles are nothing but the Ocean itself, and yet it is the UnManifest " stirring " or latent potential in the Ocean that itself gives rise to the bubbles. This potential is individually related to each bubble and at the same time is collectively related to the Ocean and at the same time is really speaking " nothing " - but the Ocean alone! So there is nothing such as travel/merger/etc for this " nothing " . *** question no 4: In pralayam: Do all the sukshma shariras of the jivas merge into karana sharira?Does karana sharira being maya survive pralayam in dormant form? *** For Maya there is no pralayam to survive. Origniation and Dissolution both operate only from the standpoint of the Cause which is Maya. Just as when the Ocean is calm for a minute, there is no bubbles and there is only Ocean. Or when the dream ends the potential for the next dream is there but this potential is nothing Other than the sleeper. So there is " nothing " other than Brahman during pralayam [see the strikingly breath-taking expression in Br.Up 2.1. - Naiveha kinchaanaagra aseet, mrtyunaivaidamavrtam aseet - There was " nothing " here in the beginninge and " It " was covered by Death!! " ]... - not just the Maha-Pralayam or Cosmic Dissolution but during our nightly trysts with the dress-rehearsal pralayam of the supremely restful Deep Sleep or sushupti - " prajna " in the Mandukya terminlogy. Here both sthula and sukshma shareera are temporarily resolved and what IS is only the jivAtman - there being no other, but the blissful embrace of a benevolent Mother Maya which is ever UnManifest - the terms karana shareera and anandamayakosha can be better understood in this context. It is interesting to note in this context that in the Katha Upanishad panchakosha viveka (1.3.10 and 1.3.11) Lord Yama quietly shifts from the vyashti to the samashti levels when he goes beyond the Intellect and talks about the vijnanamaya kosha and the anandamaya kosha in Cosmic terms of Mahat and Avyakta - thereby deliberately avoiding the idea that atma is revealed as the inner essence of ONLY the vyashti panchakosha - in which case we will end up in atma bahutvam exactly like sankhya philosophy. Hari OM Shri Gurubhyoh namah Shyam > --- Sitara Mitali <smitali17 schrieb am Di, 25.8.2009: > Om Shanti > > > Sitara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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