The dual form

[Guest guest]

Namaste to all.

 

In Sanskrit, nouns, adjectives and verbs have dual forms in addition to

singular and plural. I understand that Sanskrit is the only language that

has this feature at present. But I read in a book, “The Loom of Language” by

Frederick Bodmer, that ancient Greek and some other European languages also

had a dual which has been subsequently dropped. Can any one tell me whether

the dual has been used in Homer’s works or in any other ancient Greek or

other work available now?

 

Does any one know of any other language in which the dual is used even now?

The book mentioned above says that Amharic, the language of Ethiopia, has a

dual even now.

 

This does not come within the scope of this List, but since there are

learned members from many countries in this List I thought I would be able

to get this information here.

 

Pranams,

 

S.N.Sastri

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

From : H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> Namaste to all.

>

> In Sanskrit, nouns, adjectives and verbs have dual forms in addition

to

> singular and plural. I understand that Sanskrit is the only language

that has this feature at present..

> Does any one know of any other language in which the dual is used

even now?

 

Dear Sri Sastriji,

 

In German language the dual (dvivacana) is used.

 

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy

 

 

 

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sastriji:

 

It is a recognized fact that Sanskrit is considered most suitable for

appplications in Artificial Intelligence. It is quite plausible to conclude that

the other European languages with similar structure could have derived some of

the grammatical structure from Sanskrit, the origin for many European languages.

 

NASA for the past several decades has done extensive research on the application

of Panini's grammatical structure for developing artificial intelligence

algorithms.

 

Here are some links which can throw further insights on your question:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14285134/NASA-Sanskrit-Report

http://www.gosai.com/science/sanskrit-nasa.html

http://www.americansanskrit.com)

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Sanskrit.htm

http://www.rediff.com/search/2003/jul/24sanskrit.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

 

What I have stated here are my own understanding and are subject to further

verification. The origin of languages and language structure is complex and

there can be more than one perception.

 

With my warm regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin , " S.N. Sastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> Namaste to all.

>

> In Sanskrit, nouns, adjectives and verbs have dual forms in addition to

> singular and plural. I understand that Sanskrit is the only language that

> has this feature at present. But I read in a book, " The Loom of Language " by

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " narayana145 " <narayana145 wrote:

> Dear Sri Sastriji,

>

> In German language the dual (dvivacana) is used.

>

> With warm and respectful regards,

> Sreenivasa Murthy

 

Dear Murthyji.

I have passed examinations in German and I have been reading books in German.

There is no dual in German. Your information is wrong.

Regards,

S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramji,

Thanks for your reply. But the links given by you do not answer the questions I

have raised, namely, whether the dual is used in the works of Homer or other

ancient Greek works and whether there is any language in which dual is used even

now as in Sanskrit. I have good knowledge of French and German and I have some

idea of the structure of the languages of the Romance and Germanic groups.I read

in the book I had mentioned in my previos post, which deals in detail with all

the language hroups of the world, that Icelandic uses the dual in some cases.

Comparative philology is one of my favourite subjects. I used to read many books

on that subject before I made vedanta my full-time occupation.

With regards,

S.N.Sastri

 

advaitin , " ramvchandran " <ramvchandran wrote:

>

> Namaste Sastriji:

>

> It is a recognized fact that Sanskrit is considered most suitable for

appplications in Artificial Intelligence. It is quite plausible to conclude that

the other European languages with similar structure could have derived some of

the grammatical structure from Sanskrit, the origin for many European languages.

>

> NASA for the past several decades has done extensive research on the

application of Panini's grammatical structure for developing artificial

intelligence algorithms.

>

> Here are some links which can throw further insights on your question:

>

> http://www.scribd.com/doc/14285134/NASA-Sanskrit-Report

> http://www.gosai.com/science/sanskrit-nasa.html

> http://www.americansanskrit.com)

> http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Sanskrit.htm

> http://www.rediff.com/search/2003/jul/24sanskrit.htm

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

>

> What I have stated here are my own understanding and are subject to further

verification. The origin of languages and language structure is complex and

there can be more than one perception.

>

> With my warm regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Sastri-ji and other members,

 

The information in the following links may help answer your question.

 

1. It seems that Homer's Illiad had traces of dual form and Slavic languages

(most notably Slivenian and Polish, also including Czech, Serbian/Croatian

and Russian) have or had traces of it.

 

http://en.allexperts.com/e/d/du/dual_(grammatical_number).htm

 

" From comparisons of existing and recorded languages, linguists have

concluded that the Proto-Indo-European language had dual forms. This use was

preserved in the earliest records of Indo-European languages. This is best

represented in Sanskrit, with a mandatory dual number for all inflected

categories: nouns, verbs, adjectives and pronouns. *The Ancient Greek

language used in the Homeric texts, the Iliad and Odyssey, likewise had dual

forms for all inflected categories, although their use was only sporadic,

owing as much to artistic prerogatives as dictional and metrical

requirements within the hexameter meter.* In the classical dialects, the

dual tended to disappear but was continued in the Attic dialect of Athens

through the fifth century B.C, again sporadically according the author's

taste and certain stock conventions. "

 

The above link also talks about Arabic and Hebrew too. Please read the above

link for more info.

 

2. Also, this academic source shows talks about the particular incident

(involving Achilles and Agamenon) when Homer's Illiad talks about a dual

form:

 

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/classics/resources/homer/iliad.htm

 

Here is the text:

" Three envoys (Phoinix, Aias, Odysseus) at 9.168f. (p.137) — but ‘*so they

went along the shore of the sounding sea...’ (9.182, p.137) in the Greek

uses dual (not plural) forms: ‘the pair of them went along the shore of the

sounding sea...’; also at 9.192 (p.137f.); (9.196, p.137); etc.* Perhaps

originally two envoys (Odysseus and Ajax: contrasting pair), Phoenix

(Achilles’ tutor: so why isn’t he with Achilles already?) added — how would

this enhance the scene? (Analysts took such discrepancies as evidence of

adaptation by later poet: may be rprogressive revision by one poet.) "

 

3. Also, have a look at the following when I google for " Mycenaen homer dual

form "

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=vwUMNCYbLL0C & pg=PA257 & lpg=PA257 & dq=Mycenaean+ho\

mer+dual+form & source=bl & ots=kZz2AjtBam & sig=16GHBd2lAzmx4TLQ87goSHB0aMc & hl=en & ei=\

2cyjSovHB5ONjAfOg5msDg & sa=X & oi=book_result & ct=result & resnum=2#v=onepage & q= & f=fal\

se

 

It shows a correspondence between the advent of the definite article and the

loss of the dual form.

 

4. The following link talks about specific use of dual forms, involving

Achilles addressing a delegation using dual form

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=m3Nflm8eaL8C & pg=PA125 & lpg=PA125 & dq=homer+illiad\

+dual+form & source=bl & ots=OWEN0Q7OTf & sig=ztoBXqq0lppuUeyb_lm1fkepObM & hl=en & ei=vda\

jSpyPAZ-RjAfO8LWYDg & sa=X & oi=book_result & ct=result & resnum=5#v=onepage & q= & f=false

 

5. The above link later also talks about other incidents as well.

 

6. The following talks about Ajax being addressed along with one of his

brothers, using the dual form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser

 

Though this is a wiki link, it seems reliable!

 

7. Finally, the following shows the use of dual form in Russian and old

Norse languages.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=6wBbYgqnD2cC & pg=RA1-PA207 & lpg=RA1-PA207 & dq=dual\

+form+plural & source=bl & ots=iWAKSUp2u4 & sig=RPT2garEvW3Ivy9YpLkNUBnYc1w & hl=en & ei=Z\

8ujSo3dPI3SjAfd6fyqDg & sa=X & oi=book_result & ct=result & resnum=7#v=onepage & q=dual%20\

form%20plural & f=false

 

According to the web links above, some current languages (Slavic, Arabic and

Hebrew) seem to have dual forms, though they are disappearing (or have

disappeared) primarily because of presence of alternate forms. Further there

there is a correspondence between advent of definite article and stopping of

the use of dual form. Also, there are uses of dual forms in Mycenaen Greek

in Homer's Illiad.

 

Maybe scholars more learned than me would give more precise answers (and not

resorting to web-searches)!!!!

 

Namaste

Ramakrishna

 

2009/9/6 snsastri <sn.sastri:

> Dear Ramji,

> Thanks for your reply. But the links given by you do not answer the

questions I have raised, namely, whether the dual is used in the works of

Homer or other ancient Greek works and whether there is any language in

which dual is used even now as in Sanskrit.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ramakrishnaji - PraNAms.

 

WaH!you could find so much info through Google search!

 

While my post does not address Shree Sastriji question, about the dual to plural

there is interesting discussion in relation to Tai. Up. Brahmaananda Valli - in

the 6th Aunuvaaka. After going through the pacakosha vivaraNa and establishing

that ananda or unqualified happiness it the nature of the aatma, the upanishad

itself address some questions the student has. There the topic starts with 'in

relation to the questions (anprashNaaH) that is questions related to the topic

discussed.. and proceed to present the questions of the students. The Upanishad

only presents two questions - 1. What happens to the ignorant person when he

dies - does he merge back into Brahman 2. What happens to the wise person after

he dies - does he merge back into Brahman. Since the upanishad starts with the

declaration that aatmaa is the material cause of the whole universe of names and

forms including the beings when it discusses that from aatmaa akaasha or space

is born and

from space air is born etc thus the earth and from earth the vegetable kingdom

and from vegetable kingdom (oshadayaH) the food and from the food, human beings

are born (annaat purushaH), etc thus describing the material cause for the whole

universe is aatma which is same as Brahman. Material cause is that from which it

is born, by which it is sustained and into which it goes back into. Hence the

student question 1. was in a way corning the teacher- if he answers that

ignorant person does not merge into Brahman after his death, it implies that

Brahman is not the material cause the beings. If he says he merges back into

Brahman, the student study of the upanishd is useless since even the ignorant

person is going to be merging with Brahman, then the study of the scriptures is

unnecessary.

 

The point with reference to the topic title is - Shankara points out that the

upanishad uses the word - prashNaaH - which is plural implying there must be at

least three or more questions, while it presents only two questions following

the statement. Upanishad should have used a duel no rather than plural. Then

Shankara himself provides the answer that there is third question which is

implied - that is whether Brahma asti vaa na vaa - Does Brahman exists or not.

Thus there are two direct questions and one implied question. Interstingly the

upanishad answers the implied question - brahman asti vaa na vaa directly by

providing essentially seven reasons why Brahman asti. Also it does not answer

the directly the direct questions posed by the student - whether the ignorant

person merges with Brahman after his death and whether the wise person merges

with Brahman after his death. Shankara says it provides an implied answer to the

direct questions, and while

answering directly the implied question. When one goes through these exhaustive

analysis, one clearly sees the need of bhaashya to understand the upanishad

correctly.

My prostrations to that Brilliant mind - Shakara bhagavat Paada and to Swami

Parmarthanandaji for communicating the teaching in a form that I can understand.

 

I could not contain when I saw the topic on the dual and plural aspects in

Sanskrit, as we are now doing that portion in our Tai. Up. class.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

--- On Sun, 9/6/09, Ramakrishna Upadrasta <uramakrishna wrote:

 

 

>

> The information in the following links may help answer your

> question.

[Guest guest]

advaitin , Ramakrishna Upadrasta <uramakrishna wrote:

>

> Namaste Shri Sastri-ji and other members,

>

> The information in the following links may help answer your question.

> Namaste

> Ramakrishna

 

Dear Ramakrishna,

Thanks very much. You have provided such a lot of information. It will take me

some time to go through all the links.

Best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> advaitin , Ramakrishna Upadrasta <uramakrishna@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Shri Sastri-ji and other members,

> >

> > The information in the following links may help answer your question.

> > Namaste

> > Ramakrishna

>

> Dear Ramakrishna,

> Thanks very much. You have provided such a lot of information. It will take me

some time to go through all the links.

> Best wishes,

> S.N.Sastri

>This is to bring your kind attention that language itself is dualistic in its

pattern,nature and also

movement.Subject-object,perceiver-perceived,speaker-listener,knower-knowledge,an\

d so on.Without sound and symbol there is no content of consciousness.This dual

aspect is responsible for piling of tons of knowledge.

 

thank you

sekhar

[Guest guest]

advaitin , Ramakrishnan <krshna19 wrote:

>

> Namasthe Sastriji.

>

> Arabic language has Singular Dual and Plural forms with regards to Parts of

Speech,

> and Masculine, Feminine and Neuter gender too.

>  

> German language has Dual forms too.

>  

> The language Arabic also gives importance to " Intonations "

>  

> And most peculiar about this Arabic Language is " elongation of Vowels " which

correspond to the Duration that a Word has to be pronounced, giving the language

a MUSICAL Quality.

>

> The Vowels are placed as Signs above the consonants, ( there are also two

consonants acting as Vowels).

>

> Some vowels function as Musical Notations, such as BREVE, Semi Breve etc.

>

> It is the Quality of the Arabic Language that enriches the QURRAN,

> Which is also chanted in Ragas similar to VEDIC CHANTS

> ( from Raag 15, that is Maya Maalawa Gowlam)

>

> Arabic language has 29 alphabets.

> When I listen to the chant of Qurran, I get similar Divine vibrations to that

of " Rudra Chamakam "

 

Dear Shri Ramakrishnan,

You have collected quite a lot of information about Arabic. I have also heard

that it is a very musical language. But it is not clear whether the use of the

dual is as systematic in Arabic as in Sanskrit. Skt seems to be the only

language in which nouns, pronouns, adjectives and verbs have dual forms and

their use is compulsory.

As far as German is concerned, you are clearly wrong. I know German well. I have

read the works of Bertholt Brecht and many other writers in German. Even now I

read German books now and then. There has been no dual in German language for

the past several centuries. The old Teutonic language may have had a dual just

as even Old English had. But even then they were restricted to personal

pronouns. But the dual was dropped from these languages long ago.

Best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

I started this thread on dual forms. Valuable contributions have come from some

members.

Since this subject does not strictly fall within the scope of this List, I feel

that we should close this topic now. I request members not to send any more

posts on this subject.

S.N.Sastri