[Advaita-l] sanyAsa in shankara vedAnta

[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri Shyam prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Though I am very slow in responding your mails, hope you are still in that

tempo & line of argument :-)) Here is my share of thoughts on your

observation.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

For the record, I have never emphasized on these externalities nor do I,

or anyone including Shankara, consider them crucial. Examples like Bhagwan

Ramana and Ramakrishna Paramahamsa will suffice to demonstrate that ochre

robes and that whole list of paraphrenalia you talk about is not critical

for sarvakarmasannyasa - in fact absence of any indicatory marks or

belongings is what characterizes vidwat sannyasa even according to the

Shruti -

 

bhaskar :

 

Oh!! that would be nice to hear prabhuji. So you are in agreement here

that a sarvakarmasannyAsi does not have to have any external

characteristics to tag himself as a 'saNyAsi'. I hope this would solve

half of our problem :-))

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

so your erection of a strawman that you continue to beat down throughout

your post is quite unnecessary and uncalled for.

 

bhaskar :

 

I am afraid, this strawman you only erected by saying mere 'mental'

detachment does not serve the purpose & one MUST be there in saNyAsa

Ashrama to have any 'meaningful' mukti/mOksha or jeevan mukti.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Forget about the saffron robes you keep referencing in a patronizing

manner - in the Mandukya karika, as well as his bhashya, Shankara

clarifies that such a vidwat sannyasi " should merely depend on strips of

cloth coverings and food that come to him by chance for the maintenance of

the body "

 

bhaskar :

 

have you ever given any thought why shankara says here " he (a vidvat

saNyAsi) SHOULD depend on strips of cloth coverings? when you yourself

said somewhere else that 'everything else' would be taken care by Lord

himself??

 

bhaskar :

 

But point to be noted here is this type of smArtha saNyAsa is quite

different from the 'paramahamsa saNyAsa' or paramArtha saNyAsa enjoined

elsewhere in the upanishad. For example bruhadAraNyaka (3-5-1) : 'Knowing

this Atman, brAhmaNa-s transcend longing for offspring, wealth and worlds

and live on alms'. Shankara's bhAshya on this maNtra is quite interesting.

Here he says : for there may be reasonably a pArivrAjya (i.e. going away

from home, a saNyAsa), 'other than that which belongs to the knowing

person, and is of the nature of transcending all desires. To elaborate

this point, shankara continue to clarify who is paramahamsa saNyAsi : " The

pArivrAjya which is of the nature of transcending the desires (eshaNa-s)

is ancillary to the knowledge of Atman, for it is of the nature of

renunciation of the desire opposed to the knowledge of brahman, and desire

is only in the sphere of avidyA " . It is clear from this bhAshya vAkya that

shankara talking about paramahaMsa pArivrAjya-s who have, by the aid of

knowledge, transcends the avidyA kruta 'eshaNa-s'. And shankara concludes

in this same bhAshya : OTHER THAN THIS, there is a pArivrAjya in the form

of an Ashrama (an order of life), 'a' means to the attainment of

brahmalOka and other fruits

of action. It is in connection with this saNyAsa that wearing yajnOpaveeta

etc. are enjoined and that the linga ( the uniform, like wearing a saffron

cloth, carrying shishya vrunda, kamandala (a water pot) and other items

pertaining to this particular order) is enjoined " .

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Bhaskar-ji Shankara in the commentary here says - " Therefore the knowers

of Brahman renounce rites AND their accessories such as the holy thread(!)

embrace the life of a MONK known as Paramahamsa and LEAD A MENDICANTS LIFE

LIVE UPON BEGGING - giving up the insignia of a monk's life prescribed by

Smrtis which are their MEANS OF LIVELIHOOD - for those who merely have

recourse to that life. " What Shankara is saying is that a vidwat sannyasa

has to be FURTHER GIVE UP even the minimal accessories that a formal

ashrami sannyasi is allowed, and has to resort to living upon begging.

Your conclusion of trying to read novel meanings into the term sannyasa is

thus totally misfounded.

 

bhaskar :

 

my dear prabhuji it is not novel reading, it is your biased reading of the

bhAshya to float your pet theory of saNyAsa. Shankara's bifurcation here

is amply clear between two type of saNyAsa-s...one is eshaNa traya tyAga

rUpa saNyAsa and another is pArivrAjya in the form of an Ashrama...the

latter one is for attaining the brahmalOka and other fruits (brahmalOkAdi

phala prApti sAdhanaM). The former type of pArivrAjya saNyAsI-S do not

NECESSARILY have to have these type of labels...Therefore, I am afraid, it

is only your comical speculation of my understanding of bhAshya vAkya.

 

In short, what I am trying to say is the real saNyAsa through

saMyagjnAna..and this saMyagnAna itself has been considered saNyAsa

parexcellence (pAramArtha saNyAsa) and what you are trying to emphasize

here is MERE EXTERNAL appearance & activities of this saNyAsa that is

wearing a loin cloth, begging etc. Hope now you understand the difference

in approach to shankara bhAshya vAkya.

 

I am saying is that the knower of truth would think that he is doing

nothing while he sees, hears, touches, smells, eats, moves about, sleeps,

breathes, speaks, excretes, grasps, open or shuts his eyes, he would

always bear in mind that ONLY the senses function on their objects...AND

what you are saying is : NO, the person who knows this truth SHOULD

NECESSARILY wear a loin cloth & live on begging...It is regret that we are

ready to give prescription to even paramahamsa jnAnis also about their way

of living :-)) See, we are not allowing them to stay where they are, and

we want to push them to a room called saNyAsa Ashrama.

 

Kindly dont think I am belittling the efficacy of saNyAsa and its enormous

benefits in jnAna mArga.. I am more worried about your over enthu on

giving stipulated guidelines to Atma jnAni-s who are beyond this dehAtma

buddhi.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

There are vanaprastha ashramis who live in the forest as also tapasvis who

adopt sannyasa ashrama but are not Self-knowers - Shankara is

differentiating this while defining a vidwat sannyasi. The Shruti itself

makes the context clear.

 

bhaskar :

 

These are all mere English statements...Kindly give us Sanskrit originals

with reference & context for these conclusions we will study together.

Hope you would do the needful.

 

bhaskar :

 

It is quite evident from the above that a paramahamsa sanyAsi does not

have to live under a 'formal' saNyAsa flag and might not 'necessarily'

have characteristic marks of a particular Ashrama.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

My response:

Yes - because Shankara here is asking him to even renounce those insignia

and the paraphrenalia you alluded to earlier! He is asked to wear strips

of bark for clothing and live on the barest minimum of food.

 

bhaskar :

 

again why it is said that he should wear strips of bark for clothing and

'live' on the food?? Any thoughts?? And also you can note here that your

details of the above is totally uncalled & irrelevant as I am not denying

the saMyagdarshi-s in pArivrAjya saNyAsa Ashrama & their life style...My

contention is that this jnAna IS NOT RESTRICTED ONLY TO those who wear

strips & beg & this saNyAsa has something better than this mere external

lifestyle...Hope atleast now you got my point.

 

bhaskar :

 

Shankara in all his

bhAshya works quite explicitly explains what is paramArtha saNyAsa or

sarvakarma saNyAsa. Following are few examples :

 

(a) saNyAsena samyagdarshanena tatpUrvakena vA sarvakarma saNyAsena

(shankara in geeta bhAshya 18-49)..Here it is said that saNyAsa is nothing

 

but 'samyagdarshana' .

 

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Precisely my point Bhaskar-ji. In Shankara's lexicon samyag darshana is

possible ONLY for sannyasis - to the extent that the two become

synonymous. And what type of sannyasa he has in mind he makes it amply

clear at numerous points in his bhashya. He clarifies it here itself when

he says " samyag darshana tat purvakam va sarvakarmasannyasen a " leading to

giving up of ALL activities which is vidwat sannyasa.

 

bhaskar :

 

And you can also make it a point that this saNyAsis who are capable to

have saMyag darshana can be there in any ashrama & me might be atyAshrami

also...So, saNyAsa here NOT ALL ABOUT MERELY WEARING STRIPS and

BEGGING..There is something called jnAna to determine these

saNyAsi-s...And this jnAna can dawn to any deserved aspirant irrespective

of his/her Ashrama. You can deny the possibility of sarvakarma saNyAsi in

other Ashrama-s coz. this saNyAsi could see the inaction in action with

complete (paripUrNa) detachment.

 

bhaskar :

 

(b) saNyAsastu pAramArthikaH (geeta bhAshya 5-6) The context here is,

without observing karma yOga it is very difficult to get paramArtha

saNyAsa.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

This is because karmayoga is a preparatory step for attaining

chittashuddhi. Without passing high school you cannot do your PhD. And

after acquisition of chittashuddhi from karmayoga alone does one in stages

acquire knowledge and only then will it even be possible to embrace

sarvakarmasannyasa.

 

bhaskar :

 

Again out of context, I quoted this bhAshya to say paramahamsa saNyAsa is

pAramArthika jnAna and you started giving lecture why high school study is

required to do Phd. :-))

 

bhaskar :

 

For further details we can refer bhAshya in the 5th chapter 8th

& 9th verses...Here shankara explains paramArtha saNyAsi as

'paramArthadarshee' . Here shankara clarifies that this paramArthadarshi

have the adhikAra of 'sarvakarma saNyAsa'. (sarvakAryakAryakar aNa

cheshtAsu karmasu akarma eva pashyataH samyagdarshinaH) .

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Bhaskar-ji do you see what Shankara is saying here - What Shankara is

saying here is " Only the right seer, the paramarthadarshee BECOMES FIT TO

RNOUNCE ALL WORKS " he gives an example here and says the no one after

seeing the absence of water in a mirage will drink water - in other words

once one is a Knower then ANY FORM OF KARMA should immediately cease.

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji, I think you are reading too much between the lines here...See

just for example, without giving an iota of consideration to shankara's

own statement that : sarvakAryakAryakaraNa cheshtAsu karmasu akarma eva

pashyataH samyagdarshinaH...and keep on singing the old song :-)) How a

saMyagdarshi would see akarma in karma?? is the key point...if saNyAsa is

an absolute inert state, why shankara even bother to say this?? any

thoughts??

 

bhaskar :

 

Here sarvakarma saNyAsa does not mean popularly known saNyAsa, shankara

clarifies here though from the vyAvahArik point we could see the 'indriya

cheshta', it is sublated (bAdhita) by the real jnAna and hence whatever

appears as 'karma' to us (loukika-s) it is 'akarma' only for the jnAni.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Let us see what Shankara is saying here " And hence - because of this Jnana

- he becomes " fit to renounce all works "

i.e. he acquires the necessary qualification for vidwat sanyasa. By no

stretch of imagination does this mean the term " sannyasi " means someone

who has not physically renounced all actions!

 

bhaskar :

 

whether it is physical or mental that depends on the Ashrama that

samyagdarshi belongs to...If this samyagdarshi is a formal saNyAsi he does

(seeming) action for Kevala jeevana mAtrArtham, if he is a gruhasthA, he

does (seeming) action for lOka saMgraha...that is the reason why shankara

says : pravruttena chet lOkasaMgrahArthaM nivruttena chet jeevana

mAtrArthaM taM...if it is not still clear to you, kindly read shankara

bhAshya on geeta 5th chapter 19th verse.

 

bhaskar :

 

In geeta (5-19) shankara says : idaM tu sarvakarmasaNyAsavi shayaM

prastutaM and continues in geeta (6-2) : yaM sarvakarma tat

phalatyAgalakshaNam paramArtha saNyAsaM iti prAhuH...again it is clear

here that both paramArtha saNyAsa and sarvakArma saNyAsa are one and the

same and paramArtha saNyAsa is nothing but paramArthadarshi.

 

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Please read the next sentence in the bhashya for 6.2 Bhaskar-ji.. ..yaM

sarvakarma tat phalatyAgalakshaNam paramArtha saNyAsaM iti

prAhuH...karmayogas ya pravrttilakshanasya tadvipareetena

nivrrtilakshanena. .etc. " On the basis of what common characteristic are

identified the two OPPOSED STATES - karmayoga and REAL renunciation?

 

bhaskar :

 

thanks for giving the remaining portion of the bhAshya vAkya...it rather

proves my point more clearly...But you are again diluted that beauty of

bhAshya vAkya by giving the special emphasis on 'bAhya vesha' of a karma

yOgi & saNyAsi by giving the below example. Let us see how :

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

As an example you have a beggar playing the role of a King - and one can

ask what is the common characteristic of this beggar and the Kinig? They

both are wearing a crown! One cannot take this to mean a beggar and King

are the same. Now one may praise the beggar and say " he looks Royal " -

this doesnt make him a King. That is what Shankara also clarifies here

with regards to a karmayogi - " that this concession is mentioned ONLY as a

commendation or praise " stutyathah " which is NOT to be taken literally!

Not sure how you missed reading/mentioning that part!

 

bhaskar :

 

Go back and see what shankara says...he is not talking about the external

appearance of the karma yOgi & saNyAsi..Here shankara explicitly says

while answering to an objection : naisha dOshaH, kayAchit guNavruttyA

ubhayasya saMpipAdaishitatvAt, karmaphalasaMkalpa saNyAsAt saNyAsitvaM,

yOgAngatvena cha karmAnushTAnAt, karmaphala saMkalpasya cha chitta

vikshepa hetOH parityAgAt yOgitvaM cha iti gaUNAm ubhayaM...Please note

prabhuji, shankara does not talking about paramahamsa saNyAsi's loin cloth

& janakAdi kings corwn!! He is calling a karma yOgi as amonk by virtue of

his having given up desire for the results of actions (karmaphala saNyAsa)

which is more of a mental status rather than an external ornaments.

Moreover shankara clarifies here both are used in a figurative sense and

it is not absolutely meant in the primary sense. I hope, atleast now you

would realize how irrelevant your above example of 'crown of a begger' to

the present context of discussion.

 

bhaskar :

 

© aksharOpAsakAnAM (meditation on the immutable) nivrutta sarvaishaNAnAM

 

(who have renounced all desires) saNyAsinAM paramAthajnAna nishTAnAM

(steadfast in the knowledge) dharmajAtaM prakrAntaM upasaMharati (geeta

bhAshya introduction to 12th chapter 20th verse)...Here also shankara

implied that paramArtha jnAnanishTe is nothing but paramArtha saNyAsa.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Once again for Shankara ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE EMRACED SANNYASA CAN BE

STEADFAST IN KNOWLEDGE - not the other way around

 

bhaskar :

 

And once again this saNyAsa does not have the limitation of loin cloth &

bhikshAcharya...it is something related to STEADFAST IN KNOWLEDGE..So, by

giving over emphasization on external appearance of the saNyAsi, you are

pushing aside the significance of the concept of saNyAsa in shankara

vedAnta.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

(everyone who is steadfast in knowledge is a " sannyasi " !. .) as you imply.

He has made this amply clear in numerous portions - you can refer to my

ongoing series for a sampling of these.

 

bhaskar :

 

NO, what I am saying is, everyone who is steadfast in knowledge NOT

NECESSARILY MUST BE A SANYASI (invariably in all cases, like a VIDHI) with

a loin cloth & bhiksha...He may be a boy like nachiketa, devata like yama

dharma or a king like janaka or naked yOgi like saMvarta...enough said on

this..

 

bhaskar :

 

It is clear from the above references that according to shankara saNyAsa

in the real sense is nothing but samyagjnAna (the right knowledge).

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

My response:

This I am afraid is quite simply a misrepresentation of Shankara's

position.

 

bhaskar :

 

see shankara geeta bhAshya in detail at various places shankara clarifies

how paramArthadarshana, jnAnanishTe and sarvakarma saNyAsa are all one and

the same...then you decide your self who is misreading shankara bhAshya.

 

bhaskar :

____________ _________ ___

Here the right knowledge itself, has been labelled as 'saNyAsa' par

excellence (paramArtha saNyAsa. One can also refer here shankara's

commentary on 18th chapter 49th verse for further details.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

This is an excerpt from his bhashya in that section Bhaskar-ji.

“…..Even after removing the defects in the organs and the mind, there

arises the possibility of acceptance of gifts either for the maintenance

of the body or for righteous duties; discarding them as well, i.e.

BECOMING A MENDICANT OF THE PARAHAMSA class; nirmamah, free from the idea

of possession, becoming devoid of the idea of 'me' and 'mine' even with

regard to so much as one's body and life; and for the very same reason,

santah, serene, withdrawn; the monk who is effortless and steadfast in

Knowledge, kalpate, becomes fit; brahma-bhuyaya, for becoming Brahman… "

 

 

bhaskar :

 

would you give Sanskrit original here?? Moreover, I am not able to

understand what you are trying to convey here..I quoted bhAshya No. and

you are giving the bhAshya translation without putting across your point!!

See prabhuji I am not arguing here against saNyAsi-s...I am trying to

share my understanding with regard to jnana & mOksha that which is not

restricted to any of the Ashrama. In that effort, I tried to convey what

exactly a paramArtha saNyAsa means..

 

bhaskar :

 

As said above, here shankara in his commentary explains that saNyAsa is

EITHER right knowledge OR the renunciation of all actions through that

knowledge.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Please reconcile this statement of your with the Br Up bhashya you

yourself quote - " Knowers of Brahman renounce their homes and embrace

sannyasa " and many many such statement of Shankara. Also see further

below.

 

bhaskar :

 

Where is the need for reconciliation here?? You may note that I am not at

all denying the POSSIBILITY of sanyAsa after jnAna for brahmaNa-s...Note

the word brAhmaNa here, shankara here says : ONLY brahmaNa-s have the

adhikAra to take sanyAsa...So, your contention that SANYASA IS A MUST

AFTER JNANA & THIS SANYAASI MUST ALWAYS WEAR LOIN CLOTH & SHOULD BEG IS

FARFETCHED and out of the scope of shankara's 'vaishAlyatha'.

 

bhaskar :

____________ _________ ___

Can we say this declaration of geetAchArya pertains ONLY to people who are

in suffron clothes?? NOWAY, the knower of that truth would think that he

is doing nothing while he sees, hears touches, smells etc. he would always

bear in mind that ONLY the senses function on their objects. (geeta 5 - 8

& 9 verses) irrespective of his Ashrama.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Bhaskar-ji with regards to Geeta verse 5.8 and 5.9 - Shankara clarifies

" samyagdarshiinah tasya sarvakarmasannye eva adhikarah " // " the right seer

is alone FIT TO RENOUNCE ALL WORKS. " If according to your earlier position

" Sannyasa IS samyag darshanah and Samyag Darshanah is Sannyasa " this

sentence that One with samyag darshanah ALONE is FIT TO RENOUNCE becomes

meaningless. I hope the difference is quite clear to you.

 

bhaskar :

 

No, you are getting confused between paramArtha saNyAsa, vidvat saNyAsa &

vividisha saNyAsa...there is another type of saNyAsa i.e. smArtha

saNyAsa..So, you are mixing all these types and making your own statements

on what would be the status of saNyAsa.

 

bhaskar :

 

And this jnAni's jnAna consists in relation to action in such a way that :

he sees inaction in action, and

action in inaction, he is the wisest of all men, he has a poised mind and

he alone has done all that had to be done (geeta 4-18). Shankara in his

bhAshya explains thus : the wise one sees action in inaction, and inaction

 

in action, seeing that all thought of action, means of action etc. are in

the field of avidyA alone, since engagement in action or desisting from it

 

both depend on the doing agent (kartru), and never affect the Reality of

Atman.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Shankara also clarifies here what a sannyasi means -jeevanmatraarthach

eshtah - he is sannyasi and his stirrings are meany ONLY TO MAINTAIN LIFE

IN THE BODY. Nothing more.

 

bhaskar :

 

I am sorry prabhuji, I dont know what sort of argument is this..I've been

seeing right from the top that you simply providing counter quotes (for

which I dont have any objection) without saying anything on the bhAshya

vAkya-s which goes against your pet theory...Yes, ofcourse I agree a

formal saNyAsi who OPTED for nivrutti mArga to sustain his body (jeevana

mAtrArthaM) would beg..but see how A PRAVRUTTI JNANI DOES HIS ACTION..that

is what I quoted for which you showed me a blank slate :-)) Please

onceagain note I am accommodating BOTH PRAVRUTTI & NIVRUTTI jnAni-s and

THEIR RESPECTIVE SEEMING ACTIONS based on shankara bhAshya..whereas you

are comfortably avoiding pravrutti jnAni-s who do the action for the sake

of lOka saMgraha...I hope, it is not because of your prejudices.

 

bhaskar :

 

____________ _________ _

Now the important question is, is this state of mind, is this samyag jnAna

 

is restricted to ONLY people in a saNyAsa Ashrama?? The people who wear

ochre cloth, running Ashrams and parading with n' no. of disciples

(shishyakOti) are the ONLY custodians of this Atma jnAna?? If someone

says 'yes' to this question than it is really strange and regrettable that

 

they have completely misconstrued the very ideal of saNyAsa 'as taught' by

 

our shankara bhagavatpAda.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Once again it is regrettable that you are erecting more strawmen

needlessly. Shankara never talks about " running ashramas and parading with

a number of disciples " - why are you so keen on de-riding these Exalted

Souls and their ashrama - not all Paramahamsas teach or have ashramas and

even if they do - they dont need to " parade with disciples " - the latter

naturally flock to them, as in the case of the Sage of Kanchi and Bhagwan

Ramana. It is unfortunate to hear these type of comments about an

institution your own paramaGuru belongs to.

 

bhaskar :

 

See this is how you are reading my mail!!?? have I anywhere mentioned the

above names prabhuji?? When my parama guruji himself a vairAgya

personified, a saNyAsi in all respects, how can I belittle the sanyAsa &

its nobility?? When I said about running ashrama-s & parades, I had

charlatans and escapists in mind...Atleast, henceforth, I request you to

be bit careful before passing the above type of sweeping comments on me.

 

bhaskar :

 

Here point to be noted that for paramArtha jnAni, paramahamsa

parivrAjakatva can come naturally without any effort of his own!! But this

does not mean jnAni should invariably take formal saNyAsa & follow the

Ashrama rules religiously! ! As said earlier, even after jnAna, he may

continue to be in his respective Ashrama or may opt for vidvat saNyAsa

like yAjnAvalkya or he may became atyAshrami like vAchaknavi or samvarta.

So, there cannot be any hardbound rule for that jnAni to insist on the

formal saNyAsa. Shankara's clarification on this point in geeta bhAshya

(commentary on 2-10 & introduction to the geeta verse 2-11) is worth

noting. Here bhAshyakAra says, jnAni can perform his pUrvAshrama duties

'even' after the dawn of jnAna just for the sake of lOka saMgraha like

janaka & bhagavAn krishna etc. but we should not read much into because

jnAni transcends the very notion of kartru, karma & kriya.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Bhaskar-ji - as a matter of fact it is in this very commentary that

Shankara in his bhashya even leaves open the possibility about men like

Janaka (still engaged in action) being self-realized - " On the other hand

if it is held theey were NOT enlightened the passage may be explained to

mean that Janaka and others like him achieved samsiddhi, purity of mind by

means of actions dedicated to God. " !

 

bhaskar :

 

The second option shankara gives here after saying : 'janakAdayaH

tattvavidOpi' that means in the very first instance shankara clearly

admits that janaka was a tattva vida..and for the arguments sake shankara

continues and say IF IT IS HELD THEY WERE NOT, that means even if a

pUrvapaxi held this view, shankara says we go with it & gives an

explanation to that scenario also...Shankara like this way argues with

vijnAna vAdins also as if it is his own view...So, you have to be little

bit vigilent while quoting these type of bhAshya to prove your point.

 

Again, elsewhere shankara declares clearly that Arjuna has become

'saMyagdarshi' after geetOpadesha...so, here there is no room for any

alternatives as in the case of janaka prabhuji...Arjuna is a kshatriya &

he got the saMyagjnAna, there ends the matter prabhuji...

 

bhaskar :

 

" But for some reason, if this renouncement of actions is impossible (karma

 

parityAga asaMbhave) he still continues to engage himself in action for

the sake of lOka saMgraha but without any attachment to those actions and

their results.

Here shankara could see the possibility of ' karma parityAga asaMbhavata'

in some cases of jnAni...there might be plenty of reason for this " (a) if

this jnAni is a King & due to his sarva karma saNyAsa his own

people may suffer because of lack of proper leadership

(b) if his own responsibility is not completed

© if he is physically not fit enough to practice the rigors of saNyAsa

Ashrama

(d) if there is dependents like aged parents

(e) if there is no concurrence from the better half:-)) ( this is my

excuse for not taking saNyAsa :-)) atleast I've someone to blame for my

dodging:-))

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Here Shankara first of all makes it clear that what he means by sannyasa

is to give up everything save the bare minimal " stirrings necessary for

the mere maintenance of the body " and (because of the context of the

verse) he allows a concession by mentioning " for some reason " ...showing

that this is an exceptional situation -

 

bhaskar :

 

it is the matter of fact that in the history of vedAnta these exceptional

situations are more than the normal cases!! and shankara never ever says

these are all ONLY exception cases once in a blue moon day :-)) so your

reading of exception cases is concocted & fabricated one to the plain

bhAshya vAkya. When uddAlaka serves brahma vidyA to his son shvetaketu,

he does not utter a single word that it is an exception case I am teaching

brahma vidya to you...when yamadharma teaching 'mrutyu rahasya' to kid

nachiketa, he does not remotely meant that it is an exceptional case, when

geetachArya given upadesha to 'kshatriya' arjuna did not hint that it is

one in billion cases, yAjnAvalkya who taught brahma vidya to his wife

maitreyi did not bring your statement of 'exception', shankara who clearly

said anyAshrami-s like vidhura, dharmavyAdya, raikva, vAchaknavi,

saMvarta, did not say they have achieved ultimate under exception

circumstances. So, it is more than evident prabhuji that you are

concocting something & trying to push through the bhAshya vAkya.

 

And even if I agree to your speculation that it is only in exceptional

situation shankara allows the alternative, it is morethan enough for me to

discard your theory that SANYAASA IS INVARIABLY THE MUST REQUISITE FOR

JNANA..So, neither of the alternatives helpful to you prabhuji.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

by no means can this be extended to the innumerable situations and excuses

that you allude to by extension.

 

bhaskar :

 

My dear prabhuji, go back & kindly study bhAshya in detail..nirgama

asaMbhavAt lOka saMgrahachikeershaya, shishta vigarhaNa parijaheershaya vA

pUrvavat karmaNi abhipravruttOpi nishkriyAtma darshanasaMpannatvAt naiva

kiMchit karOti saH..do you need more proof than this to prove a jnAni can

still continue work (in the loukika view point) and at the same time he

does nothing??!! shravaNa kumAra engaged himself by serving his aged

parents, shankara took his mother's permission before taking saNyAsa,

paramahaMsa married as per the order of bhagavati, ramaNa didnot take

formal saNyAsa...So, my view is justified here because shankara himself

admits the possibility of nirgama asaMbhavata and karma parityAga

asambhavata..

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

It is incongruous to say he is a " Knower " of Brahman that he knows his

Self to be nitya shuddha mukta Atma and then say he feels responsible to

care for aged parents and as a King( a Prime Minister in todays' age?!)

feels his people will suffer - with this type of reasonings no person can

ever take to sannyasa - it will simply be impossible to be a grhastha and

not have ANY responsibility or duty. This is repeatedly what Shankara

stresses that ONLY to a knower can there be the conviction that by

sannyasa he is not being derelict

in his duties. All these seeming " responsibilities " stem from a false

belief of an ignorant man that it is " he " and not Ishwara who is taking

care of his near and dear ones or his subjects, as the case may be. You do

bring about an excellent and very important ethical point of practicality

here that permission of a spouse is considered necessary even for a Knower

to renounce and Sureshwaracharya makes this quite explicity in his Br.Up

vartika (even though Shankara does not say so).

 

bhaskar :

 

You are jumping fast from practicals of lOka vyavahAra to pAramArthika

satya..shankara did not say his mother, you are mother only to this body

not me 'Atman', when she asked shankara to be there beside his death

bed!!?? and shankara has not assured her Ishwara will take care of

her...so it is clear that you are simply talking only for the arguments

sake without any base in shankara bhAshya..coz. you are simply ignoring

the reasons which shankara himself gives in his bhAshya.

 

bhaskar :

 

And finally, in chAndOgya (2-23-1 concluding sentence) bhAshya, which

myself & sri Sastri prabhuji quoted earlier clearly gives a 'clean chit'

to gruhasthAshrama jnAni to whom pArivrAjyaM is 'artha siddhaM'. Though

shankara himself states in this very bhAshya that this is not to show the

importance of any Ashrama and its respective phala, it is worth to note

that shankara declaration that by default a gruhasta jnAni would get the

status of pArivrAjyaM.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Shankara nowhere declares that a grhasta jnani would get the " status of a

parivrajyam " - he emphasizes that a grhasta who achieves Self-knowledge

has to resort to parivrajyam i.e. renounce his home.

 

bhaskar :

 

FOR YOUR READY REFERENCE ONCEAGAIN :

 

ETENA GRUHASTHASYA EKATVA VIJNAANE SATI PAARIVRAAJYAM ARTHA SIDDHAM...(

please note this is his CONCLUDING REMARKS on this chAdOgya maNtra...WOULD

YOU MIND TO EXPLAIN ME : what is this " artha siddhaM " ??

 

bhaskar :

 

With this we can conclude that paramArtha jnana is NOT AT ALL a sole

property of A FORMAL SANYAASI.... And contextually there are several

meaning to the word 'saNyAsa' in shankara's bhAshyAmruta.

 

Sri S prabhuji :

 

Bhaskar-ji it is one thing to conclude that even though one respects

Shankara, one can have one's own intellectual honesty and disagree with,

or not consider very important, the Acharya's stated positions on each and

everything as Sadananda-ji alluded to - it is quite another thing to try

to find ways to read into his bhashyas a message that seems to suit one's

line of thinking - a tremendous degree of objectivity is called for and

one needs to examine this dispassionately, and with the help of one's

Guru, comprehensively.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes prabhuji, it requires an hell amount of objectivity when discussing

these type of issues...selective quoting & fabricated assumptions would

not going to help us in this objective analysation...It needs abundant

guru kAruNya to get a glimpse of that truth....May the god & your guru

bless you in your spiritual quest.

 

Humble pranams

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam

 

Humble praNAms onceagain

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!