Guest guest Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Namaste to all. The theory explaining the phenomenon of superimposition, such as that of silver on nacre, according to advaita VedAnta, is known as anirvacanIyakhyAti. According to it, the mental vRitti shows the object only as something in front, or merely as ‘this’. The fact that it is nacre is not known because of some defect, such as distance of the object from the person. The brightness of the object triggers the latent impression in his mind of silver seen previously elsewhere. Then he concludes, “This (the object in front) is silver. Shri Shankara defines adhyAsa as—smRitirUpah paratra pUrvadRiShTa avabhAsah—Of the nature of memory, the appearance elsewhere of some thing seen previously. PanchapAdikA and VivaraNa, which are followed by VedAnta ParibhAShA and accepted by all advaita AcAryas hold that the adhyAsa of silver on nacre (as also all other adhyasas) is of two kinds—jnAna adhyAsa, or adhyAsa of cognition and artha adhyAsa, or adhyAsa of object. It is held that what is seen in the illusion, or imagined to exist, is not merely the attributes of silver, but silver itself. It is held that silver is not merely cognized, but it is seen to exist there. The reason for this conclusion is that, when there is cognition of silver, the object, silver, must be considered to exist there, because there can be no cognition without an object. Of course, later on it is found that there is no silver, but as long as the delusion lasts, silver is considered to be present. Moreover it is pointed out that unless the person believed that silver was actually there, he would not make an effort to grasp it. This is what is described as artha adhyAsa. In the same way, we believe that the world actually exists and is real until the dawn of Self-knowledge. Thus the theory of artha adhyAsa is intended to explain why we not only see the world, but accept it as real. This has been stated in the following words in VivaraNaprameyasangraha of VidyAraNya, which is a summary of VivaraNa (Translation of G. Thibaut):-- JnAna-adhyAsa never takes place apart from artha-adhyAsa. P. 58 of VivaraNaprameyasangraha (VPS)- Of adhyAsa viewed as thing (artha adhyAsa), the definition is: 'adhyAsa is a thing, similar to some thing remembered, which presents itself to consciousness as constituting the Self of another thing.' Of adhyAsa viewed as cognition (jnAna adhyAsa) the definition is ' adhyAsa is the presentation to consciousness of one thing as constituting the Self of another--- such presentation being similar to remembrance.' Neither Shankara nor any other AcArya says that only the attributes of the superimposed object are presented in an adhyAsa. They all hold that the object itself Is presented. P. 58-59—VPS- The adherents of akhyati-vada say-- when we have the erroneous idea 'this thing before me is silver,' the sense of sight and the other means of true knowledge do not operate, and it, therefore, only remains to view the silver simply as remembered silver, not as 'similar to remembered silver'. By no means, we reply. For we are conscious of the silver as something here and now presented to us (not as something remembered). Nor can it be held that what is so presented to us is only this thing, not the silver. For the 'this' and the silver are immediately presented to us in mutual combination (itaretara samsrishtau); the case does not differ from that of correct judgments, such as 'this is silver', 'this is a jar', where the general and the particularizing notions present themselves in mutual combination. -------- We, therefore, must admit on the ground of the existence of immediate consciousness, that silver exists before us.------ The cognition of this silver is, however, not by the same vRitti as that for the cognition of nacre. The eye is not in contact with the silver, for the reason that there is really no silver there. The silver is therefore sAkShi bhAsya, as stated below:-- Page 30 of VP. Being cognized by the witness alone (kevalasAkShi-vedyatvam) does not mean that they are objects of the witness without the presence of the mental modifications corresponding to them, but that they are objects of the witness without the activity of pramanas such as the sense-organs and inference. Hence PrakashAtma yati has, in VivaraNa, admitted a mental modification in the form of the ego-- ahamAkAra-vRitti. So also, in the case of an illusory piece of silver, a vRitti of nescience (avidya vritti) in the form of silver (rajata-AkAra-avidya-vRitti) has been admitted in works such as Samkshepa-shArIraka. The illusory silver is 'sAkShi-bhAsyam', cognised by the witness-self, since the mental modification is not of the vyAvahArika mind, but is a vRitti of avidya. Thus there are two cognitions, one of the nacre as merely ‘this’ by a mental modification with the help of the eyes, and another cognition, of silver, as sAkshi pratyaksha, by an avidya vRitti. These two appear as one combined cognition as stated below:-- VivaraNaprameyasangraha- p.28—In the case of error (bhrAnti), as exemplified by the cognition ‘this (thing before me) is silver’, two distinct things, although quite incapable of identity, are nevertheless cognised as identical. P. 61—VPS-- We, therefore, must accept the view of unreal silver being actually present. How otherwise would one perceiving a shell, put forth action with regard to silver? The silver thus is not silver remembered but silver similar to remembered silver. P. 62. VPS-- The advaitin says:-- In order to account for the particularised action (of stretching out the hand to grasp the silver), we must assume a composite mental state, (i.e., an immediate apprehension of this and the silver). It is clear from the above that in an illusion like that of nacre appearing as silver, what is seen (or thought to be seen) is not the attributes of silver, but silver itself. This silver is later on found to have never existed, just as the world is found to have never existed on the dawn of knowledge. But both are considered as actually existing as long as there is ignorance of the substratum. This theory of two kinds of adhyAsa is well known to those who have studied VivaraNa and other works, but it may not be known to most of the members of this List. Shri Shankara himself has not gone into this question, but there is nothing in his writings that go against this. On the other hand this is a logical consequence of his views on adhyAsa. Regards, S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 It is clear from the above that in an illusion like that of nacre appearing as silver, what is seen (or thought to be seen) is not the attributes of silver, but silver itself. This silver is later on found to have never existed, just as the world is found to have never existed on the dawn of knowledge. But both are considered as actually existing as long as there is ignorance of the substratum. praNAms Sri Sastri prabhuji Hare krishna I've a small doubt here!!?? (as always :-)) It is true that after realizing the substratum of the 'seen' silver, we say 'silver' was never existed & we dont see any more silver and we would see ONLY nacre (i.e. substratum)....Can we apply this same logic to 'dAshtrAntika' also i.e. brahman & world?? after realization, can we say world will be completely vanished like 'silver'?? Kindly clarify whether for this 'silverless' or 'worldless' state vivaraNa school recommending any particular state?? or it holds mere sublative knowledge (bhAdita jnAna) of the world ?? Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 > brahman & world?? after realization, can we say world will be completely > vanished like 'silver'?? Kindly clarify whether for this 'silverless' or > 'worldless' state vivaraNa school recommending any particular state?? or > it holds mere sublative knowledge (bhAdita jnAna) of the world ?? > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > Super impose There are explanations, commentaries,narrations,formulas etc of the imposed object i,e the word but not of the actual.For us the object is ones own consciousness which made of word and its picture and also the feeling derived from the interaction of word and its picture.Thus one is seeing the picture churned out from the interpretation.This is an endless procedure with which one is entangled.Who breaks this chain is the question but not regarding Brahma or non Brahma or Nirvana. thank you sir sekhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Dear Bhaskarji, On this point you have been saying in past posts that on the rise of knowledge avidya and its effects are found to have never existed and that the world itself is not seen after knowledge. But I and others have been saying that though avidya and its effects are found to have never existed in reality, the world is still seen, but it is recognised as brahman itself, just as a pot continues to be seen as such even after the knowledge that it is nothing but clay. This is is a matter on which this difference of opinion has not been reconciled. Let us not start this discussion again. Regards, S.N.Sastri advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > It is clear from the above that in an illusion like that of nacre > appearing as silver, what is seen (or thought to be seen) is not the > attributes of silver, but silver itself. This silver is later on found to > have never existed, just as the world is found to have never existed on > the dawn of knowledge. But both are considered as actually existing as > long as there is ignorance of the substratum. > > praNAms Sri Sastri prabhuji > Hare krishna > I've a small doubt here!!?? (as always :-)) It is true that after > realizing the substratum of the 'seen' silver, we say 'silver' was never > existed & we dont see any more silver and we would see ONLY nacre (i.e. > substratum)....Can we apply this same logic to 'dAshtrAntika' also i.e. > brahman & world?? after realization, can we say world will be completely > vanished like 'silver'?? Kindly clarify whether for this 'silverless' or > 'worldless' state vivaraNa school recommending any particular state?? or > it holds mere sublative knowledge (bhAdita jnAna) of the world ?? > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Dear Bhaskar, Pranams. Probably it can be compared with a dream analogy. I had a beautiful & wonderful dream in my sleep. When i am awake, i realise that the dream is not real and an illusion. But still at the back of my mind i cherish that dream though i am fully conscious and aware that the dream is false. I believe it is something like this.... I think Shri Sastri-Ji or Shri Sada-ji should take up some serious classes on Dakshinamurthy Stotram of Sankara Bhagavatpada which i believe is the foundation stone to understand the Advaita. regs, sriram advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > It is clear from the above that in an illusion like that of nacre > appearing as silver, what is seen (or thought to be seen) is not the > attributes of silver, but silver itself. This silver is later on found to > have never existed, just as the world is found to have never existed on > the dawn of knowledge. But both are considered as actually existing as > long as there is ignorance of the substratum. > > praNAms Sri Sastri prabhuji > Hare krishna > I've a small doubt here!!?? (as always :-)) It is true that after > realizing the substratum of the 'seen' silver, we say 'silver' was never > existed & we dont see any more silver and we would see ONLY nacre (i.e. > substratum)....Can we apply this same logic to 'dAshtrAntika' also i.e. > brahman & world?? after realization, can we say world will be completely > vanished like 'silver'?? Kindly clarify whether for this 'silverless' or > 'worldless' state vivaraNa school recommending any particular state?? or > it holds mere sublative knowledge (bhAdita jnAna) of the world ?? > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Humble praNAms Sri Sastri prabhuji Hare Krishna Sri Sastri prabhuji : On this point you have been saying in past posts that on the rise of knowledge avidya and its effects are found to have never existed and that the world itself is not seen after knowledge. bhaskar : I am afraid, there seems to be some serious misunderstanding in my position. I've never said after dawn of knowledge, world would vanish in thin air & jnAni would stay in mind-blank, inert state. This is not at all my position. Instead I've been arguing there is no world as such that can be said has the existence apart from brahman & world cannot be called as world anymore coz. for the jnAni there is ONLY one truth and i.e. brahman. He who knows that Imperishable brahman, that sarvajna enters verily into ALL asserts prashna shruti..and for HIM brahman is arpaNam, brahma is havi, brahman is agni, and he is brahma karma samAdhina says geeta too. That is the reason why I've asked for your clarification that whether jnAni would see the jagat with bAdhita jnAna. The moment avidyA is wiped off by vidyA, one comes to know that one has been aways the one inmost Atman without a second & for HIM there cannot be *A WORLD* as such. For him left, right, top, bottom everything is brahman ONLY & nothing else. This is exactly my position prabhuji. Sri Sastri prabhuji : But I and others have been saying that though avidya and its effects are found to have never existed in reality, the world is still seen, but it is recognised as brahman itself, just as a pot continues to be seen as such even after the knowledge that it is nothing but clay. bhaskar : But vivaraNa and other advaita prakaraNa texts like viveka chudAmaNi etc. insists for the need of experience of 'absolute non dual state' like samAdhi state to realize he is absolutely ONE without second!!??..Anyway, as you said, let us not open the pandora box once again :-)) Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 I had a beautiful & wonderful dream in my sleep. When i am awake, i realise that the dream is not real and an illusion. But still at the back of my mind i cherish that dream though i am fully conscious and aware that the dream is false. praNAms Sri Ram prabhuji Hare Krishna Yes, when the jnAni awake & realize the turiya, he would realize, the world which has the temporal reality restricted to one particular state's time & space can not be 'vikalpa rahita' brahman...And he would see both waking & dreaming world with same degree of reality. svapnAntaM jAgaritAMtaM cha ubau enAnupashyati..mahAntaM vibhumAtmAnaM matvA dhirO na shOchati says kATaka shruti...Geeta too defines this position beautifully and says that which is night to all beings the realized yOgi keeps awake and that (the ever changing, transient world & worldly happiness) in which all the being keep awake is night to the yOgi. Avastha traya prakriya (methodology of three states) is an effective tool to determine the 'reality' of this socalled world!!. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Shree Sriram - PraNAms Shree Subbuji has already done that and one can down load the posts from file section of personal study. Hari Om! Sadananda --- On Wed, 11/4/09, babi <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: I think Shri Sastri-Ji or Shri Sada-ji should take up some serious classes on Dakshinamurthy Stotram of Sankara Bhagavatpada which i believe is the foundation stone to understand the Advaita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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