On Vedic Ritual, Animal Sacrifice.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shyam-ji,

Your moderate words on this subject are welcome and are no doubt based on

your observations as you move amongst the people you encounter in your

daily life far from the arena where the notions about sattvic diet were

first promulgated. I have read a philosopher promoting ethical veganism

who at the same time was in favour of partial birth abortion. By the same

token absolutely good living people are carnivores. How do you

distinguish between the different factors that go to form personality once

you get away from pre-scientific theories? I have never come across any

study of the effect of diet that had a valid scientific basis, with

control groups, placebos etc. My intuition is that if you are inclined to

be choleric (from the doctrine of humours, a Western version of

pre-scientific typology) then whether you eat lentils or beef you will be

subject to that passion. How very convenient it would be if diet ordained

tendency to behave in a certain way. Judges would ordain that violent

criminals be put on rice plates for the duration of their sentence.

 

From the point of view of animal welfare one might ask whether it is kind

to keep cows in India at all given that its climate hardly suits them and

that there is a shortage of forage for them. Those Hindus that have moved

beyond Bharat must be struck by the difference in well being of cattle in

more temperate climes. From the cow point of view they have a better life

and in any case their end is the same. Is India still the largest

exporter of hides in the world?

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Shyam-ji,

I have the greatest respect for the vedas. But, even at the risk of being

branded a heretic, i would like to avoid justifying everything in the

scriptures. Let us concentrate on the vedanta which contains eternal truths.

Arjuna is known as Dhananjaya because he attacked other countries and brought a

lot of wealth from there. It was considered as a praiseworthy act of valour. But

today such an action would be considered as looting and a violation of the

Geneva Convention.

There are other such instances also.

Best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

Diet and food one takes is, of course, is a matter of

personal preference and views. Our views are subject to evolution as we gain

more knowledge and understanding. I want to thank Radhe-ji for taking a

leadership role in educating us (readers of luthar.com) about animal cruelty

throughout the world.

 

Although I had already been leaning towards this for many years,

recently I became a vegan. Being a vegan means avoiding taking in all animal

products including dairy and eggs as well. I do not feel that it was a moral

choice but a natural evolution for me and thus fairly easy.

 

I still use leather products which I bought some years ago

and perhaps when I buy shoes next time, these will have leather in them. My

intention is to try to use these leather products for a long time until they

fully wear out.

 

I certainly do not judge anyone on what they eat and wear,

etc. However, I have to say that articles published by Radhe-ji and also my

teacher’s wife Pramoda-ji, and documentaries that I have watched on how

cows and other animals are made to suffer in order to provide food for people

have helped to evolve my thoughts.

 

In Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna states, “If one offers

Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept

it:’ (Bg.9.26). In my view, Bhagavan specifically mentions these foods as

an offering to Him, as they minimize violence to other life forms. To me this

seems to suggest that Sri Krishna is sanctioning a diet based on leaves and

fruits and water as the best one for spiritual growth. I am no scholar on the

Bhagavad Gita, but my liberal interpretation of this verse would be that the

Sattvic diet is generally in large part plant based and includes all or most

vegetables, fruits, legumes, grains, nuts, etc.

 

Due to the medical knowledge that exists today, it seems

that strict vegans should supplement with vitamin b12 and perhaps vitamin D.

However, I am not a medical expert and everyone should do their own research.

 

With respect and reverence for all our esteemed scholars

here.

 

Namaste and love to all

Harsha

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of Radhe

Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:17 PM

advaitin

Re: Re: On Vedic Ritual, Animal Sacrifice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The slaughter

and torture of cattle is hardly limited to the US, but extends

worldwide. Therefore, to limit one's perspective on this to the US, is

limiting one's perspective. And if one wishes to broaden one's perspective from

the standpoint of ahimsa, then it must be said that the vegetarian diet

falls short of reaching the goal of ahimsa as a divine quality to

cultivate. Millions of cattle are commercially tortured

daily throughout the world to produce dairy products, which are used for

multiple reasons and in multiple ways. Framing it in that

perspective, the slaughter of animals is short and quick compared to the years

of daily abuse and torture inflicted on dairy cows in numerous countries throughout

the world. Looking away from the actions of " others " and at our

own behavior in the context of the chapter of the Gita which we are

currently studying, you can read more about this subject at Harsha's blog,

where I have been attempting to explore and educate myself and share what

I have learned so far...

 

 

 

 

 

call-of-the-conch-introduction/

 

 

 

 

 

call-of-the-conch-1/

 

 

 

 

 

call-of-the-conch-part-2/

 

 

 

 

 

call-of-the-conch-3/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respectfully,

 

Radhe

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

>

>

>

> Namaste Shyam-ji,

> Your moderate words on this subject are welcome and are no doubt based on

> your observations as you move amongst the people you encounter in your

> daily life far from the arena where the notions about sattvic diet were

> first promulgated. I have read a philosopher promoting ethical veganism

> who at the same time was in favour of partial birth abortion. By the same

> token absolutely good living people are carnivores. How do you

> distinguish between the different factors that go to form personality once

> you get away from pre-scientific theories? I have never come across any

> study of the effect of diet that had a valid scientific basis, with

> control groups, placebos etc. My intuition is that if you are inclined to

> be choleric (from the doctrine of humours, a Western version of

> pre-scientific typology) then whether you eat lentils or beef you will be

> subject to that passion.

 

Namaste Michael-ji,

 

I think you are mixing a lot of apples and oranges and nuts in there...Partial

birth abortion is a Catholic, and Fundamentalist Christan flag of course..but

this does not take into account the various aspects of A-Himsa...and whether in

belief systems there is an 'entity' present in the foetus etc....It is really

personal to the woman....and her opinion, and possibilities of greater harm.

 

On good living carnivores...well again this is belief system...but it is

superficial, in that it doesn't take into account the subconscious samskaras and

vasanas. If they are on the so called spiritual path then we have cognitive

dissonance....in conflict with A-Himsa or 'resistance to harm'. These sub

conscious impediments also are enhanced by the vibrations in the meat,

particularly the fear and death throes.

 

Finally in the sports world they encourage some people to eat meat as a booster

for violent activity...........

 

In the end result it depends on the person...whether they are a 1.human animal,

2. an aspiring human being, 3.a human being, 4. a realised human. If a person is

a highly intelligent human animal I would no more condemn them for eating meat

than say a carnivore animal. In the end result most Muktas didn't eat

meat...Even Jesus didn't....as the word meat in the Bible is just the same word

in Greek for food..as it is in Scots English today. Also the background for

Jesus and James etc being Essenic.....we can draw some conclusions. Suggest

reading James the brother of Jesus, by Robert Eisenman for illumination on this

particular subject.

 

In the end result it depends on whether one is on the spiritual path, has a

developed vijnanamayakosa and understands that A-Himsa and Daya are really

prerequistes for Moksha..........Cheers Tony.

[Guest guest]

Pranams Radhe-ji

Your links are extensive and very well-intentioned. It is wonderful to have strong feelings about animal welfare and love and respect for all forms of life - and, as a fellow-vegetarian, I share the very same feelings as you.

 

We all will bear the karmic results of our acts of commission and also omission - so it is always helpful to be cognizant about the origins of the various types of foods we intake and I thank you for spreading awareness about the ills of animal husbandry and other stock practices and ills.

 

Besides milk there are many other foods involving inadvertent injury and loss of life to animals. Jains for example will not consume any underground root vegetables - onion, garlic, potatoes, beets, carrots, etc The reason is that in farming/extracting these vegetables it is very likely that one is going to trample with a multitude of worms that live in the soil. Many vegetarian Hindus also avoid garlic and onion. And most would agree that if one is talking about the sanctity of life, the life of a earthworm is as precious as that of a chick, etc. Similarly one would need to be sure that every food item one consumes has not been treated with pesticides that resulted in the death of many innocent pests and the like. Sugar in the West is also not vegetarian unless it is the brown sugar variety. We could go on. I am afraid that is far removed from the point under discussion.

 

Nor is the issue here about the sattvic quotient of any particular country or state. The reason I mentioned the USof A is because it is the world's largest beef producer. Some other country may be the largest producer of chicken meat. There is little difference. Outside of the narrow context of Vedic rituals - India, Japan, China, Japan, etc etcare all no different when it comes to a track record of keeping animals safe and healthy. Seals in Scandinavia are actually bludgeoned to death as a rite of passage for teens - all irrelevant to this forum and to this discussion.

As the title of this series suggests - the point is - a. is animal sacrifice mentioned in the Vedas and as a corollary b. is it then considered to be something we would label barbaric/abhorrent.

 

The only point I am making is that you use the same yardstick in talking about it as you would in talking about animal killing in any form. It is always amusing to read the hypocrisy of those talking about ritualistic animal sacrifices as being barbaric and relishing a tender veal for dinner at the same time.

 

If there are references to animal sacrifices in the Vedas (or even the Bible or the Koran for that matter) that in of itself does not cast a slur on these Holy texts themselves. The Vedas are meant for all of humanity - not just those who feel/think/opine like say you and me would. These portions that deal with animal sacrifices simply do not pertain to us, at our station in life and in our times. That does not mean the Vedas are wrong or that those sections of the Vedas are immoral, nor does it mean that the Vedas encourage the killing of animals directly or indirectly, or that those portions of the Vedas are to be condoned. It is like saying this supermarket is vile because Aisle 9 is filled with beef products. Aisle 9 is meant for people who eat beef. If your sensibility enables you to be a vegetarian - avoid going to Aisle 9. And do not be judgemental about a friend who does go to Aisle 9. Meat-eating is permitted by

all sections of the society who are not Brahmanas in the Vedic culture. Meat-eating is also permitted (with their own set of dos and donts) by most other religions as well. This does not make that particular religion barbaric - it simply makes it inclusive. Meat eating is as old and eternal as mankind - it is part of the circle of life with its infinite variety. The sanskrit term for meat is mamsah - He(sah) - whose flesh I eat will devour me (mam) in the next birth - and illustrates this very well.

 

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam

 

--- On Tue, 1/5/10, Radhe <shaantih wrote:

Radhe <shaantihRe: Re: On Vedic Ritual, Animal Sacrifice.advaitin Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 10:16 PM

 

Pranams Shyam-ji:

 

I thought my question ( Can you enlighten us as to where in our current times, based upon the authority of the VedAs, animal sacrifice is performed as part of rituals?) was quite limited and you answered it in a few sentences. For some reason, you injected another "perspective" to which I would like to respond since you brought it up. You made the following statement in connection with animal sacrifice...

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --

Compare this however to the 30 million cattle commercially slaughtered in the US alone in 1 year(about a 100 thousand a day!) and we can frame this in an appropriate perspective.

 

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---

 

The slaughter and torture of cattle is hardly limited to the US, but extends worldwide. Therefore, to limit one's perspective on this to the US, is limiting one's perspective. And if one wishes to broaden one's perspective from the standpoint of ahimsa, then it must be said that the vegetarian diet falls short of reaching the goal of ahimsa as a divine quality to cultivate. Millions of cattle are commercially tortured daily throughout the world to produce dairy products, which are used for multiple reasons and in multiple ways. Framing it in that perspective, the slaughter of animals is short and quick compared to the years of daily abuse and torture inflicted on dairy cows in numerous countries throughout the world. Looking away from the actions of "others" and at our own behavior in the context of the chapter of the Gita which we are currently studying, you can read

more about this subject at Harsha's blog, where I have been attempting to explore and educate myself and share what I have learned so far...

 

http://luthar. com/call- of-the-conch- introduction/

 

http://luthar. com/call- of-the-conch- 1/

 

http://luthar. com/call- of-the-conch- part-2/

 

http://luthar. com/call- of-the-conch- 3/

 

 

 

Respectfully, Radhe

 

[Guest guest]

Respected Shastr-ji

Humble pranams.

 

Who are we as mere imperfect mortals to reject/justify/defend/condone the Vedas -even if just be certain portions - the Vedas which are verily the Breath of Brahman? All we can do, as you suggest, is focus our attention and energies on that portion of the Vedas which is meant for us(in this case Vedanta) and for our good, and try to imbibe it to the best of our limited ability, and avoid the impulse to be judegemental about the sections that have little or no relevance for us.

 

I think the lengthy excerpt by one of the greatest jivanmuktas of our times - the Sage of Kanchi - which I provided in my earlier post says everything that is to be said about this aspect.

 

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam--- On Wed, 1/6/10, snsastri <sn.sastri wrote:

snsastri <sn.sastri Re: On Vedic Ritual, Animal Sacrifice.advaitin Date: Wednesday, January 6, 2010, 10:53 AM

Dear Shyam-ji,I have the greatest respect for the vedas. But, even at the risk of being branded a heretic, i would like to avoid justifying everything in the scriptures. Let us concentrate on the vedanta which contains eternal truths. Arjuna is known as Dhananjaya because he attacked other countries and brought a lot of wealth from there. It was considered as a praiseworthy act of valour. But today such an action would be considered as looting and a violation of the Geneva Convention. There are other such instances also. Best wishes,S.N.Sastri