Guest guest Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Dear all, Namaste So far I understood that apart from sruti it is basically the five sense organs that serve as pramanas. But which pramana do I use to perceive a certain feeling coming up (like compassion, joy or decisiveness) . Can someone please clarify? Om Shanti Sitara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Sitara - PraNams You may be able to find the answer in the Knowledge series - or go to adviata.org.uk under critical analysis of Vedanta Paribhasha - where internal cognitions have been analyzed. Hari Om! Sadananda--- On Sat, 2/20/10, Sitara <smitali17 wrote: Sitara <smitali17 Pramanasadvaitin Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 3:46 PM Dear all,NamasteSo far I understood that apart from sruti it is basically the five senseorgans that serve as pramanas. But which pramana do I use to perceive acertain feeling coming up (like compassion, joy or decisiveness) . Cansomeone please clarify?Om ShantiSitara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Dear Sitara-ji, Internal feelings such as joy, sorrow, etc., are known as soon as they arise by the sAkShi (witness-consciousness) without the help of any pramANa.For this also a mental vRitti is necessary, but the vRitti is formed without any other help because the feelings are also in the same mind. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote: > > > Dear all, > > Namaste > > So far I understood that apart from sruti it is basically the five sense > organs that serve as pramanas. But which pramana do I use to perceive a > certain feeling coming up (like compassion, joy or decisiveness) . Can > someone please clarify? > > Om Shanti > > Sitara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote: > > > Dear all, > > Namaste > > So far I understood that apart from sruti it is basically the five sense > organs that serve as pramanas. But which pramana do I use to perceive a > certain feeling coming up (like compassion, joy or decisiveness) . Can > someone please clarify? > > Om Shanti > > Sitara Namaste Sitaraji, The knowledge which is gained through direct perception via the sense organs, I believe is a type of knowledge called pratyaksha, which means direct and immediate. This type of knowledge can be contrasted to other types of knowledge, such inference, presumption (and some others) which are not directly given to us by the sense organs. (I suppose one could say that these other types of knowledge require some reasoning. Sort of one step, two step type of knowledge.) For instance, I see smoke on the hill and infer there is fire. I see puddles of water in the morning, and assume it has rained in the night. And as Sri Sastriji says, there is the knowledge which is illumined by the 'sakshi' the witness. This would be knowledge which is not acquired through the use of the sense organs. This is knowledge of thoughts, moods, emotions, memories etc., things which occur in the mind. These 'things' (read thoughts) are still known as objects, but they are not objects of sense perception. Thus they are referred to as 'sakshi pratyaksha.' This knowledge, like knowledge given by the sense organs is direct and immediate, but we don't require our sense organs to know these thoughts, these objects of the mind. I have also heard Swami Dayanandaji refer to deep sleep in which there is no mental object as sakshi pratyaksh. And actually I think that all knowledge of objects is sakshi pratyaksha in the final analysis, because all objective knowledge occurs as a thought, which can be said to be illumined by the sakshi. It's also my understanding that in the end, it is seen that there really isn't some type of separate entity called the sakshi, but rather there is just Knowledge. That by which all thoughts are known, and that is also atma/brahman. The ahankara thought comes along and claims this knowledge for itself, saying 'I know this or that.' But really even that ahankara thought is illumined by brahman, even that thought is 'known.' Known not *by* brahman/atma, just known, as known is the nature of atma. satyam/jnanam/anantam This is still an understanding which I am contemplating, and I'm not sure that it's entirely correct (but I think that it may be.) All the best to you, Durga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 advaitin , Sitara Mitali <smitali17 wrote: > > Dear Sadaji, dear Shastriji > > Pranams > > thanks a lot for your helpful explanation and reference. I have immediately started studying the indicated site about knowledge which is fabulous. > > One other question about Shruti as pramana: Is it only Upanishads that are considered as pramana or is this extended also to lets say Vivekachudamani or Brahmasutras (or any others)? > > Om Shanti > Sitara > Namaste Sitarji, I can attempt to answer this one as well. As I am not at all an expert in these matters, I'm sure there are other more learned members than I who can answer authoritatively, but I'll try to put down what I've learned and what I understand. What is it about the Upanishads that serves as a pramana (a means of knowledge) for self-knowledge? Obviously if I pick up a copy of Kena Upanishad and point it at someone, no knowledge of the self will ensue :-) If someone picks up a copy of Kena and reads it will self-knowledge ensue? Most probably not. If I read the words of Kena aloud to another without any explanation will self-knowledge ensue? Again most likely not. So how and why is it that the Upanishads are said to be a pramana for self-knowledge? What is the pramana we are talking about here? As far as I know the word pramana here actually refers to the methodology which is found in the Upanishads which methodology acts as the means for knowledge of the self. So the important word is methodology. And what is this methodology? As far as I know, it entails knocking off incorrect knowledge (or assumptions), and pointing out what is actually true. There are certain methods, called prakriyas, which do this. They are pointing out something which is entirely self-evident, but goes over-looked because of mental confusion. Prakriyas which point out that when your body/mind changes, there is that about you which doesn't. That you are always present in exactly the same way to the waking, dream and deep sleep states. That you are always present in exactly the same way in all three periods of time, past, present and future. That whatever aspect of the body or mind your mind make takes yourself to be, you are present to each and every one of them. That this world of experience, in which objects seem to be existing separately, when analyzed falls apart, and no separately existing 'thing' can actually be found. Yet all the while there is something which never goes into or out of existence. So those are the prakriyas as I understand them, the methodologies employed by the Upanishads, the reason why the sruti acts as a pramana, a means of knowledge, which, through negation and assertion, leads to the direct recognition of myself as brahman, the actual reality of all that appears to exist as dual. Can this methodology be said to be found in any other scripture other than the Upanishads? I would say, definitely it can. However, where does this knowledge really reside? I would say that it resides with the teacher, because without the teacher, who knows how to handle the words found in the texts as a pramana, as a means of knowledge, the 'key' to the use of the words, will not be there. So we need both the teacher and the teaching. In this a way they are one and the same. Best wishes, Durga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Namaste,I found that reading Shri Sastri-ji's excellent summary of the Vedanta Paribhasha made me understand the material clearly. Hope it helps you as well!http://www.celextel.org/summaryofvedantabooks/summaryofvedantaparibhasha.html Ramakrishna2010/2/21 Sitara Mitali <smitali17 thanks a lot for your helpful explanation and reference. I have immediately started studying the indicated site about knowledge which is fabulous. One other question about Shruti as pramana: Is it only Upanishads that are considered as pramana or is this extended also to lets say Vivekachudamani or Brahmasutras (or any others)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote: > > So far I understood that apart from sruti it is basically the five sense organs that serve as pramanas. But which pramana do I use to perceive a certain feeling coming up (like compassion, joy or decisiveness) . Can someone please clarify? > > One other question about Shruti as pramana: Is it only Upanishads that are considered as pramana or is this extended also to lets say Vivekachudamani or Brahmasutras (or any others)? Om Shanti > > Sitara > Hari Om Sitaraji, Pranaams! 1. I feel your first question pertains to karaNa - instrument than pramANa - evidence. That thro which you perceive is instrument(karaNa) and that thro which you ascertain the validity of what you perceive is evidence(pramANa). The intellect(buddhi) is the instrument for knowing the states/modifications of mind(manas). 2. vedAnto nAma upaniShat pramANaM tad upakArINi shArIrakasUtrAdIni ca(vedAntasAra of sadAnanda) - Vedanta is the evidence(pramANa)** of the UpaniShads, as well as the Brahma Sutras and other books like the commentaries of Upanishads and the Gita etc. that help in the correct expounding of its meaning. ** The Sanskrit word PramANa literally means the instrument of pramA or Knowledge.(Translation and notes by Sw. Nikhilananda). Only in Sanskrit language we have incorrect knowledge(bhrama) and right knowledge(pramA) classification. Hence instrument for obtaining knowledge is karaNa; pramANa ensures validity of it. In Shri Guru Smriti, Br. Pranipata Chaitanya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 Dear Sitara-ji, For Brahman the pramAna is only the upanishads. Brahmasutra, etc., are acceptable since they do not contradict the upanishads. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri advaitin , Sitara Mitali <smitali17 wrote: > > Dear Sadaji, dear Shastriji > > Pranams > > thanks a lot for your helpful explanation and reference. I have immediately started studying the indicated site about knowledge which is fabulous. > > One other question about Shruti as pramana: Is it only Upanishads that are considered as pramana or is this extended also to lets say Vivekachudamani or Brahmasutras (or any others)? > > Om Shanti > Sitara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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