Guest guest Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Namaskaram, I came across the Jan and Feb 2010 editions of Prabuddha Bharatha (of Ramakrishna order). See: http://www.advaitaashrama.org/pb_archive.php for downloadable copies. The Jan magazine has some nice articles on Advaita as well. It also has a couple of articles under section " The Ramakrishna Movement " authored by Swami Atmapriyananda and by Jeffrey Long, that attempt to distinguish Neo-Vedanta from Advaita Vedanta as per Shankaracharya. While members here may not care or know of Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda, you may be able to tell whether the authors have given a fair treatment of Advaita. I request that learned members read these two articles carefully and make comments. Thank you. thollmelukaalkizhu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 Now the turn to consolidate properly. See the editorial of March 2010 issue " Sri Ramakrishna's religion " ; go to the same site. I encourage all interested to read and make comments. " The reputed philosopher Saris Chandra Chatterjee summed up this position ... '... It is a philosohpy of Advaita #like# Shankara's, but a new type of Advaita. While agreeing with the traditional Sankarite Advaita in certain fundamental points, Ramakrishna's Advaita goes beyond Shankara's in certain important respects. It is more positive than Shankara's Advaita which is more negative. It is reconciled with Dvaita, Visishtadvaita, Sakti-Advaita of Tantra and other types of Advaita, while Shankara's Advaita cannot, from the transcendental standpoint, be reconciled with these.' " To make a careful attempt at dealing with the organization's very smart attempts at deifying its Person and establishing #his religion#, one must also analyse whether any suggestions of his uniqueness or just special qualities are really #his uniqueness#, or whether these are generic saintly qualities that are being highlighted. The intent of any personality cult is to glorify its Person; the philosophy is subsidiary to this purpose and the organization will never stand on philosophy alone, especially on its marketing front. It is also important for us to analyze assertions of " Shankara's Advaita " , etc. Is Advaita Shankara's own philosophy, or do we understand him as acharya who elucidated the Vedas, etc? As a personality-cult, one can suspect that the Ramakrishna Math uses such variables in a manner suited to standardizing their Person-centric religion - whereas the general understanding would previously have had different implications. Anyway, others can give more specific comments suited to this forum. Thanks. thollmelukaalkizhu advaitin , " putranm " <putranm wrote: > > Namaskaram, > > I came across the Jan and Feb 2010 editions of Prabuddha Bharatha (of Ramakrishna order). See: > > http://www.advaitaashrama.org/pb_archive.php for downloadable copies. > > The Jan magazine has some nice articles on Advaita as well. > > It also has a couple of articles under section " The Ramakrishna Movement " authored by Swami Atmapriyananda and by Jeffrey Long, that attempt to distinguish Neo-Vedanta from Advaita Vedanta as per Shankaracharya. > > While members here may not care or know of Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda, you may be able to tell whether the authors have given a fair treatment of Advaita. I request that learned members read these two articles carefully and make comments. Thank you. > > thollmelukaalkizhu > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 Namaste. Neo-vedanta is nothing but " old wine in new bottle " . Unfortunately, the neo-vedantis claim the " old wine " to be " new wine " . Sankara Vedanta gives much importance to Varna Ashrama Dharma, Nitya / Naimittika Karma Anushtana like Sandhya Vandana, Panchyatana, Agni Upasana (worship of Fire) and then in the due course the disciple has to sit at the holy feet of the guru in person with humility (pariprashnena sevaya..) and study vedanta. By Sankara Vedanta i mean the Sringeri, Kanchi, Dakshinamurthy Mutt, Sivaganga, Kudali, Yogananda, Pushpagiri, Sampekatte, Chitrapur, Karavir etc. Neo-vedantis try to by-pass the karma anushtana (which is a fashion now-a-days) there by end up with karma bhrashtatva. And start their own " isms " and " cults " . Vedanta without Sampradaya Shuddhi / Shrotriya & Brahmanishta Guru Parampara is just a lip philosophy. I have personally observed the luxorious life styles of matajis / swamijis of the order. Frankly speaking, i have lost faith in sanyasis of the current order. If i have hurt anybody' feelings, i am sorry for that. regs, sriram regs, sriram advaitin , " putranm " <putranm wrote: > > Now the turn to consolidate properly. > > See the editorial of March 2010 issue " Sri Ramakrishna's religion " ; go to the same site. I encourage all interested to read and make comments. > > " The reputed philosopher Saris Chandra Chatterjee summed up this position ... > > '... It is a philosohpy of Advaita #like# Shankara's, but a new type of Advaita. While agreeing with the traditional Sankarite Advaita in certain fundamental points, Ramakrishna's Advaita goes beyond Shankara's in certain important respects. It is more positive than Shankara's Advaita which is more negative. It is reconciled with Dvaita, Visishtadvaita, Sakti-Advaita of Tantra and other types of Advaita, while Shankara's Advaita cannot, from the transcendental standpoint, be reconciled with these.' " > > To make a careful attempt at dealing with the organization's very smart attempts at deifying its Person and establishing #his religion#, one must also analyse whether any suggestions of his uniqueness or just special qualities are really #his uniqueness#, or whether these are generic saintly qualities that are being highlighted. The intent of any personality cult is to glorify its Person; the philosophy is subsidiary to this purpose and the organization will never stand on philosophy alone, especially on its marketing front. > > It is also important for us to analyze assertions of " Shankara's Advaita " , etc. Is Advaita Shankara's own philosophy, or do we understand him as acharya who elucidated the Vedas, etc? As a personality-cult, one can suspect that the Ramakrishna Math uses such variables in a manner suited to standardizing their Person-centric religion - whereas the general understanding would previously have had different implications. > > Anyway, others can give more specific comments suited to this forum. Thanks. > > thollmelukaalkizhu > > advaitin , " putranm " <putranm@> wrote: > > > > Namaskaram, > > > > I came across the Jan and Feb 2010 editions of Prabuddha Bharatha (of Ramakrishna order). See: > > > > http://www.advaitaashrama.org/pb_archive.php for downloadable copies. > > > > The Jan magazine has some nice articles on Advaita as well. > > > > It also has a couple of articles under section " The Ramakrishna Movement " authored by Swami Atmapriyananda and by Jeffrey Long, that attempt to distinguish Neo-Vedanta from Advaita Vedanta as per Shankaracharya. > > > > While members here may not care or know of Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda, you may be able to tell whether the authors have given a fair treatment of Advaita. I request that learned members read these two articles carefully and make comments. Thank you. > > > > thollmelukaalkizhu > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 Neo-vedantis try to by-pass the karma anushtana (which is a fashion now-a-days) there by end up with karma bhrashtatva. And start their own " isms " and " cults " . praNAms Hare Krishna Yes, you are right prabhuji...those who teach & practice vedAnta in a neo-vedAnta style would not strictly stick to their nitya & naimittika karmAnushtAna-s...The excuse they give is after all these karma-s are there for chitta shuddhi & that chitta shuddhi can be obtained by observing sAdhana chatushtaya...they donot think shirking from the vaidika karmAnushtAna as per their varNa dharma (svadharma) is against smruti injunctions (vidhi-s). Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 I am surprised at this, because the monks of Ramakrishna Mission have given us excellent translations of the bhAShyas and other works of Shankara.Some years ago I used to attend lectures in the Mission by the monks. They always spoke about Shankara with great respect. I wonder whether the prsent articles reflect the official view of the Mission. As regards nitya karma, many of the present monks are non-traivarnikas and so these karmas do not apply to them. I have not heard them belittle the importance of nitya karma for traivarnikas. Indifference to nitya karma is now a common feature with most people, even those who do not have even an elementary acquaintance with vedanta. So it is not due to neo-vedanta. S.N.Sastri advaitin , " putranm " <putranm wrote: > > Now the turn to consolidate properly. > > See the editorial of March 2010 issue " Sri Ramakrishna's religion " ; go to the same site. I encourage all interested to read and make comments. > > " The reputed philosopher Saris Chandra Chatterjee summed up this position ... > > '... It is a philosohpy of Advaita #like# Shankara's, but a new type of Advaita. While agreeing with the traditional Sankarite Advaita in certain fundamental points, Ramakrishna's Advaita goes beyond Shankara's in certain important respects. It is more positive than Shankara's Advaita which is more negative. It is reconciled with Dvaita, Visishtadvaita, Sakti-Advaita of Tantra and other types of Advaita, while Shankara's Advaita cannot, from the transcendental standpoint, be reconciled with these.' " > > To make a careful attempt at dealing with the organization's very smart attempts at deifying its Person and establishing #his religion#, one must also analyse whether any suggestions of his uniqueness or just special qualities are really #his uniqueness#, or whether these are generic saintly qualities that are being highlighted. The intent of any personality cult is to glorify its Person; the philosophy is subsidiary to this purpose and the organization will never stand on philosophy alone, especially on its marketing front. > > It is also important for us to analyze assertions of " Shankara's Advaita " , etc. Is Advaita Shankara's own philosophy, or do we understand him as acharya who elucidated the Vedas, etc? As a personality-cult, one can suspect that the Ramakrishna Math uses such variables in a manner suited to standardizing their Person-centric religion - whereas the general understanding would previously have had different implications. > > Anyway, others can give more specific comments suited to this forum. Thanks. > > thollmelukaalkizhu > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 Indifference to nitya karma is now a common feature with most people, even those who do not have even an elementary acquaintance with vedanta. praNAms Respected Sri Sastri prabhuji Hare Krishna IMHO, the cult which has acquaintance with vedAnta & citing all excuses for skipping nitya & naimittika karma-s is more dangerous than the common people who lead purely materilistic life...Because, these socalled religious / spiritual people justifying their apathetic attitude and forcing common people to think differently out of the boundaries of tradition... Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 There are mainly three objections to Ramakrishna Mission's style and approach.Neo Vedanta : This is the term which was applied to Swami Vivekananda's exposition of Sanatana Dharma by others. He or even the present body of RK Mission dont uphold the Neo Vedanta as understood by others. I guess it was first used by Romain Rolland. What is wrong in putting old wine in the new bottle, if the bottle is acceptable to all ? After all bottle is not important , the wine is.The content is more important than the container. Isnt it a special feature of our Sanatana Dharma that the 'new' is always welcome?. For the continuous evolution of the outer, while keeping the core intact, I think the new presentation is essential. Why do we have several smritis such as Parashar, Yajnavalkya and Manu ? The dynamism of the Sanatana Dharma is maintained by the continuous experimentation and presentation according to the changing social milieu. IMO the saints like Sant Jnanesvar and Tukaram were rebels and people of their times also must have called their teachings Neo Vedanta. Even Bhagavan Krishna stopped the worship of Indra and replaced it with the worship of Govardhana. This was also a small rebellion. Finally whatever is against the teachings of Vedanta will be rejected in the long term, whether it is Neo or not.Nitya Karma etc... Swami Vivekananda gave a new meaning to the Nitya karma in terms of service to the poor and needy. In fact this is the only way to take Vedanta to the masses , otherwise it remains hidden in the minds of ascetics , in the forests. India has suffered enough through centuries because the religion became a monopoly of a few. IMO, this discovery of Swami Vivekananda was path breaking. Let traditional nitya karmas be the private and individual issue for those who want to preserve them. Let there be a freedom to those who want to alter the meaning of Nitya karmas according to the requirement of times. As Sri Ramakrishna said, the coin of Mughal time is useless in the British regime. Lifestyle of RK Mission monks...Personally I have known many monks who stick to the simple way of living. There may be exceptions. This doesnt mean that it is the official style of functioning of the monks. Lastly, as Sastriji says, In RK Mission,I have observed that Sankara's teachings and comments are respected and even considered as standard interpretation of Vedanta at the core. RegardsDilip DhopavkarOn Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 12:35 PM, snsastri <sn.sastri wrote: I am surprised at this, because the monks of Ramakrishna Mission have given us excellent translations of the bhAShyas and other works of Shankara.Some years ago I used to attend lectures in the Mission by the monks. They always spoke about Shankara with great respect. I wonder whether the prsent articles reflect the official view of the Mission. As regards nitya karma, many of the present monks are non-traivarnikas and so these karmas do not apply to them. I have not heard them belittle the importance of nitya karma for traivarnikas. Indifference to nitya karma is now a common feature with most people, even those who do not have even an elementary acquaintance with vedanta. So it is not due to neo-vedanta. S.N.Sastri advaitin , " putranm " <putranm wrote: > > Now the turn to consolidate properly. > > See the editorial of March 2010 issue " Sri Ramakrishna's religion " ; go to the same site. I encourage all interested to read and make comments. > > " The reputed philosopher Saris Chandra Chatterjee summed up this position ... > > '... It is a philosohpy of Advaita #like# Shankara's, but a new type of Advaita. While agreeing with the traditional Sankarite Advaita in certain fundamental points, Ramakrishna's Advaita goes beyond Shankara's in certain important respects. It is more positive than Shankara's Advaita which is more negative. It is reconciled with Dvaita, Visishtadvaita, Sakti-Advaita of Tantra and other types of Advaita, while Shankara's Advaita cannot, from the transcendental standpoint, be reconciled with these.' " > > To make a careful attempt at dealing with the organization's very smart attempts at deifying its Person and establishing #his religion#, one must also analyse whether any suggestions of his uniqueness or just special qualities are really #his uniqueness#, or whether these are generic saintly qualities that are being highlighted. The intent of any personality cult is to glorify its Person; the philosophy is subsidiary to this purpose and the organization will never stand on philosophy alone, especially on its marketing front. > > It is also important for us to analyze assertions of " Shankara's Advaita " , etc. Is Advaita Shankara's own philosophy, or do we understand him as acharya who elucidated the Vedas, etc? As a personality-cult, one can suspect that the Ramakrishna Math uses such variables in a manner suited to standardizing their Person-centric religion - whereas the general understanding would previously have had different implications. > > Anyway, others can give more specific comments suited to this forum. Thanks. > > thollmelukaalkizhu > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 Shastriji, There is no doubt that the monks have deep regard for Shankara and that many of them are high-class. All that is admitted up-front. But the organization is not static; it is evolving and part of this evolution involves the consolidation of distinct identity, independent of established sampradayas and if you observe carefully, independent of Vedas, Shastras, and all else except the Personality of Sri Ramakrishna (Holy Mother, Swami Vivekananda, etc). Also the nature of a group is not represented entirely by the individual you or I happen to meet. The monk that we meet will necessarily be universal in spirit and outlook; but when the same monk becomes the editor for a spiritual-monthly of the Order, he will be practical and know where to make the concessions for the benefit of the organization. So a crucial question becomes what is the agenda of the organization? For this will guide the little hidden steps that will cover the secret-distance without being noticed. And in particular here, to what extent is the organization Personality-dependent and seeking to propagate its Person before Principle? It is true that Sri Ramakrishna was universal in outlook (ehh - so Shankara or Kanchi Paramacharya was not?? Clarity please!); but the " Universal temple of Sri Ramakrishna " is a temple where the Universe can come and worship Sri Ramakrishna! That is organization pulling the strings. Due to a lack of proper sampradayic guideline as to how the organization should approach and represent the Person, the weaker elements of the group eventually pull it down from Principle to Person, and once in, it becomes exceedingly difficult to get out. In our sampradaya, it is clear (at least to me) that Shankara is a teacher of the Vedas whose teachings and intent are precise. In the RK Math, this adherence to the Vedas itself is belittled as being exclusivist (from Bible, etc) which " Sri Ramakrishna's religion " allows us to transcend, hence it being superior to traditional Vedanta, etc. etc. Only thing, the compromise happens at a much lower level, with an implicit Personality dependence. Personality-dependence or Person-centricism is therefore not " old wine " , at least not " old Vedantic wine " . It is a sabotaging adulteration seeking oneness with other such cults, and there is its sole real claim to " newness " . As to understanding Sri Ramakrishna's thought, the best way to get there is to just read the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, editing notwithstanding. We should not take the present (or earlier) monks' opinions in the matter as worth a pence. Dasgupta's words probably are the best in the article which any typical Hindu would naturally have felt, or gone along with. The rest is misery. thollmelukaalkizhu advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote: > > I am surprised at this, because the monks of Ramakrishna Mission have given us excellent translations of the bhAShyas and other works of Shankara.Some years ago I used to attend lectures in the Mission by the monks. They always spoke about Shankara with great respect. I wonder whether the prsent articles reflect the official view of the Mission. > As regards nitya karma, many of the present monks are non-traivarnikas and so these karmas do not apply to them. I have not heard them belittle the importance of nitya karma for traivarnikas. Indifference to nitya karma is now a common feature with most people, even those who do not have even an elementary acquaintance with vedanta. So it is not due to neo-vedanta. > S.N.Sastri > > advaitin , " putranm " <putranm@> wrote: > > > > Now the turn to consolidate properly. > > > > See the editorial of March 2010 issue " Sri Ramakrishna's religion " ; go to the same site. I encourage all interested to read and make comments. > > > > " The reputed philosopher Saris Chandra Chatterjee summed up this position .... > > > > '... It is a philosohpy of Advaita #like# Shankara's, but a new type of Advaita. While agreeing with the traditional Sankarite Advaita in certain fundamental points, Ramakrishna's Advaita goes beyond Shankara's in certain important respects. It is more positive than Shankara's Advaita which is more negative. It is reconciled with Dvaita, Visishtadvaita, Sakti-Advaita of Tantra and other types of Advaita, while Shankara's Advaita cannot, from the transcendental standpoint, be reconciled with these.' " > > > > To make a careful attempt at dealing with the organization's very smart attempts at deifying its Person and establishing #his religion#, one must also analyse whether any suggestions of his uniqueness or just special qualities are really #his uniqueness#, or whether these are generic saintly qualities that are being highlighted. The intent of any personality cult is to glorify its Person; the philosophy is subsidiary to this purpose and the organization will never stand on philosophy alone, especially on its marketing front. > > > > It is also important for us to analyze assertions of " Shankara's Advaita " , etc. Is Advaita Shankara's own philosophy, or do we understand him as acharya who elucidated the Vedas, etc? As a personality-cult, one can suspect that the Ramakrishna Math uses such variables in a manner suited to standardizing their Person-centric religion - whereas the general understanding would previously have had different implications. > > > > Anyway, others can give more specific comments suited to this forum. Thanks. > > > > thollmelukaalkizhu > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 In the RK Math, this adherence to the Vedas itself is belittled as being exclusivist (from Bible, etc) which " Sri Ramakrishna's religion " allows us to transcend, hence it being superior to traditional Vedanta, etc. etc. Only thing, the compromise happens at a much lower level, with an implicit Personality dependence. praNAms Hare Krishna This is a good observation I think. For that matter, in one of the books (I dont remember the title, may be 'mahAyOga' by lakshmana sharma?? not sure ) published from RamanAshrama, here the author prefers ramaNa, as a realized sage's words to eternal & unchanged vedAntic words...His arguments at the time of reading appered to me was quite interesting & logical ...But I dont remember even the title of that book now :-)) Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 Namaste Sastriji, Then why the apashurdrAdhikaraNa is violated if they have so much respect for the Bhagavatpada? Kindly note that my post is not to demean any section of the society but then Sastra is Sastra. One cannot twist the injunctions as per one's own convenience. For that matter, i am a broad-minded smarta who welcome all sections of society into my fold. regs, sriram advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote: > > I am surprised at this, because the monks of Ramakrishna Mission have given us excellent translations of the bhAShyas and other works of Shankara.Some years ago I used to attend lectures in the Mission by the monks. They always spoke about Shankara with great respect. I wonder whether the prsent articles reflect the official view of the Mission. > As regards nitya karma, many of the present monks are non-traivarnikas and so these karmas do not apply to them. I have not heard them belittle the importance of nitya karma for traivarnikas. Indifference to nitya karma is now a common feature with most people, even those who do not have even an elementary acquaintance with vedanta. So it is not due to neo-vedanta. > S.N.Sastri > > advaitin , " putranm " <putranm@> wrote: > > > > Now the turn to consolidate properly. > > > > See the editorial of March 2010 issue " Sri Ramakrishna's religion " ; go to the same site. I encourage all interested to read and make comments. > > > > " The reputed philosopher Saris Chandra Chatterjee summed up this position .... > > > > '... It is a philosohpy of Advaita #like# Shankara's, but a new type of Advaita. While agreeing with the traditional Sankarite Advaita in certain fundamental points, Ramakrishna's Advaita goes beyond Shankara's in certain important respects. It is more positive than Shankara's Advaita which is more negative. It is reconciled with Dvaita, Visishtadvaita, Sakti-Advaita of Tantra and other types of Advaita, while Shankara's Advaita cannot, from the transcendental standpoint, be reconciled with these.' " > > > > To make a careful attempt at dealing with the organization's very smart attempts at deifying its Person and establishing #his religion#, one must also analyse whether any suggestions of his uniqueness or just special qualities are really #his uniqueness#, or whether these are generic saintly qualities that are being highlighted. The intent of any personality cult is to glorify its Person; the philosophy is subsidiary to this purpose and the organization will never stand on philosophy alone, especially on its marketing front. > > > > It is also important for us to analyze assertions of " Shankara's Advaita " , etc. Is Advaita Shankara's own philosophy, or do we understand him as acharya who elucidated the Vedas, etc? As a personality-cult, one can suspect that the Ramakrishna Math uses such variables in a manner suited to standardizing their Person-centric religion - whereas the general understanding would previously have had different implications. > > > > Anyway, others can give more specific comments suited to this forum. Thanks. > > > > thollmelukaalkizhu > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 advaitin , " Venkata Sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > Namaste Sastriji, > > Then why the apashurdrAdhikaraNa is violated if they have so much respect for the Bhagavatpada? > > regs, > sriram Dear Sriram-ji, You are treading on sensitive ground. It is not only the Ramakrishna Mission that is violating the apashUdrAdhikarana. Swami Paramarthananda and Swami Dayananda are also doing the same by teaching the upanishads to non-traivarNikas. You and and I and Sada-ji and Subbuji who are writing on the upanishads in this forum which includes many non-traivarNikas and non-Hindus as members are guilty of the same violation. The view you have expressed is incompatible with membership of this List and may hurt the feelings of some members. I am not interested in supporting the RK Mission. I just tried to look at the better side of things. For criticism of Shankara no one can equal VijnAna Bhikshu, in his commentary on the yoga sutras. He descends to outright abusive language. The discussion has gone beyond the scope of this List. It is better that it is closed. Best wishes, S.N.Sastri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2010 Report Share Posted April 7, 2010 hare krishna namaskarams excelllantly said.where is varnasrama dharma practised by all.let us be little practical and realise todays situation of every one of us.one should take what is best in everything. with krishna's blessings baskaran The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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