Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Namaste, We may be hung up on semantics and interpretation here. First of all I don't believe that ultimately 'Grace' in any form exists at all. For Grace is Sakti and therefore Saguna. There being only Nirguna Brahman, even that/Saguana is illusion. However having said that, the world is real whilst one is in it according to Sankara. So let us posit the existence of Saguna and the validity of Grace and Karma. I believe it is a given that a certain amount of work or Sadhana is necessary to purify the sheaths of their samskaras, and tendencies etc. This is an act of effort and therefore is action and therefore is karma, which means action in sankrit. Before one can even practise Who am I? and Self Enquiry one has to have a certain amount of mental maturity and purification. If one had only to give up the idea of being a person by saying so, the world would not be in illusion........It takes Sadhana not intellectualisation. Therefore again as there is not time and the dream actually all happens at once there can only be predetermination and no freewill in the life being lived. Therefore Moksha is predetermined also, as is the Sadhana required to arrive at that state of no mind. Of course we will awake to find nothing has happened at all, but in the meantime of relativity, there is work/sadhana/karma and a result/karma--------purified Buddhi and Moksha and not before. Grace is the Ground of Saguna, and is always there constant but our impure sheaths prevent its manifestation in this illusion. The only action or interference of Sakti, besides Avatars, and that is another debate, is that when the Buddhi is purified and all that is left is the 'I' feeling the Saguna subsumes its own creation the 'I' and Moksha is there as it always was.....So this is why I say Grace and Karma are the same for they are both as illusionary.................... Ramana in 'Be as you are', on p 111. Says the following. 'That which is; is only Grace, there is nothing else'. 'God, Grace and Guru are all synomymous;' p108. IMO this is all referring to Sakti or Saguna Brahman. In creation there can only be prana and karma. Hence everything is Grace, Prana and Karma. One arrives at Moksha due to one's karmic efforts, one cannot be realised without a purified Buddhi or antahkarana. Therefore one is brought to the edge of Moksha by Karma or Grace. Is not Karma Grace in action? I see no diferentiation since it is all a projection of Brahman anyway............ It doesn't matter how philosophical one gets, Sadhana is irreplacable and absolutely necessary for achieving Moksha. Philosophy exists in the mind and not so high in the intellect even. A high level of awareness can only be attained through sadhana and purifying the vijnanamakakosa or awareness sheath. It doesn't matter if one is aware of the illusion the lower mind needs the practice and the result is a cleansed or purified higher intellect or Buddhi. I for example do not accept that creation happened at all, but my mind believes the illusion, otherwise I wouldn't be writing this. So I use yantras, mantras and tantras to help my lower mind. I am aware at the intellectual level that this isn't the ultimate truth but my lower mind doesn't. Hence the need for a certain amount of ritual, Ishtadevatas, bhajans, mantras etc. As we are God then we are in fact the instrument of Grace. Which is achieved through karm and purification of the Buddhi. There is no outside 'God' who is going to help us and give us Grace we haven't earned. This God is our very selves indeed, in fact we are the Sakti we worship in fact. It is through the Sakti we gain the Nirguna, for merging with Sakti, our own Higher Self, we become realised of Nirguna also. At this point above attributes and bliss itself we realise it never happened at all............ This doesn't conflict with the teachings of Ramana but it is not in a bhakti vein. As Ramana said he is a prisoner on the couch. He tolerated worship and different levels of spirituality but left no uncertain teaching on advaita. So this site where this was moderated is a Ramana site. However they have turned Ramana into an Ishtadevata or God Form and are busily worshipping him it seems, notwithstanding that the body is long gone and the jiva merged. Nisargadatta said that only one person in Bombay/Mumbai can understand advaita intellectually never mind realise it. This would amount to only about 60,000 people on the planet. Out of these how many would actually merge the consciousness and drop the illusion, perhaps only a handful. I come from a Vedantic background so that is my parlance. However it seems to me that the Buddhi or higher intellect has to be purified of all the tendencies and attributes that prevent the illusion on duality to disappear. In other words a certain mental maturity is necessary to even practise Ramana's 'Who am I?' Self Enquiry. All this of course creates a problem with those who need a 'God' to give them 'Grace' and look after them somehow. The idea that we are in fact 'God' and we provide our 'Grace' by our practise seems to escape them although they pay lip service to it. I have seen this time and time again even with those ostensibly following teachers of Advaita or Non Dualism. It seems a stage has to be reached emotionally and intellectually where one can take full responsibility for one's own progress and karma. This isn't surprising, what is surprising is that they turn advaitins into Godforms they worship.............ONS..Tony. There is ultimately no 'God'. Yes the holocaust and killing of 11 million Jews, Russians, Politicos, Gypsies, Gays, Communists and others indicates that there is no God doing anything. Anymore than the killing of billions of animals weekly is an indication of God. The Universe runs on its own karma, even down to us dropping a piece of paper, according to Ramana. There is no Personal God ultimately, only Nirguna Brahman, all this is a projection, and illusion so to speak-----a dream. It is wound up like a clock and runs by itself, on karma. There being only karma and prana in creation--------Grace is Saguna Brahman. So effectivley there is no God, we are left to our own devices and karma..........A personal Guru may advise or even give some diksha but the rest is up to us, and even that is karmic. So all those people in the holocaust, Ruanda, Ghengis Khan massacres, Stalin's purges etc, were getting what they had done to others in previous lives. The billions of animals is a little more difficult to explain. IMO It is a mixture of people born as animals so they can suffer karma and the natural sequence of energy consuming energy as in the world normally.........ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Dear Tony, I agree with you,which is why I am being insulted now on other lists. The thing is, that if you always remind people that everything is illusion, then there really is no need to write about anything and that frustrates. So on a certain level things happen and we discuss them. As far as Ramana and Bhakti is concerned. Even while Ramana was alive, most people around him followed a Bhakti path. That has not changed. There was one guy who asked everyone who came out of the old hall in the ashram, what they had been doing and no-one said Vichara. Bhagawan himself said that Vichara is only for the advanced sadhaka, for the very few. Sri Sadhu Om has explained the karmic stages of spiritual development in his " The Path of Ramana Maharshi " . Bhakti in its different forms is part of that. So you have to except that people following Ramana are on different levels. That means some sort of patience is needed. Thanks for explaining that Bhakti cleanses the vijnanamayakosa. That is what I meant by saying that the mind is shaken up and made subtle by Bhakti. It is part of the sadhana and effort one has to make before being able to grasp the ultimate truth. Love Christina On Oct 24, 2004, at 23:31, Tony OClery wrote: > > Namaste, > > We may be hung up on semantics and interpretation here. > > First of all I don't believe that ultimately 'Grace' in any form > exists at all. For Grace is Sakti and therefore Saguna. There being > only Nirguna Brahman, even that/Saguana is illusion. > > However having said that, the world is real whilst one is in it > according to Sankara. So let us posit the existence of Saguna and > the validity of Grace and Karma. > > I believe it is a given that a certain amount of work or Sadhana is > necessary to purify the sheaths of their samskaras, and tendencies > etc. This is an act of effort and therefore is action and therefore > is karma, which means action in sankrit. Before one can even > practise Who am I? and Self Enquiry one has to have a certain amount > of mental maturity and purification. > > If one had only to give up the idea of being a person by saying so, > the world would not be in illusion........It takes Sadhana not > intellectualisation. > > Therefore again as there is not time and the dream actually all > happens at once there can only be predetermination and no freewill > in the life being lived. Therefore Moksha is predetermined also, as > is the Sadhana required to arrive at that state of no mind. > > Of course we will awake to find nothing has happened at all, but in > the meantime of relativity, there is work/sadhana/karma and a > result/karma--------purified Buddhi and Moksha and not before. Grace > is the Ground of Saguna, and is always there constant but our impure > sheaths prevent its manifestation in this illusion. > > The only action or interference of Sakti, besides Avatars, and that > is another debate, is that when the Buddhi is purified and all that > is left is the 'I' feeling the Saguna subsumes its own creation > the 'I' and Moksha is there as it always was.....So this is why I > say Grace and Karma are the same for they are both as > illusionary.................... > > Ramana in 'Be as you are', on p 111. Says the following. 'That which > is; is only Grace, there is nothing else'. > 'God, Grace and Guru are all synomymous;' p108. > IMO this is all referring to Sakti or Saguna Brahman. In creation > there can only be prana and karma. Hence everything is Grace, Prana > and Karma. One arrives at Moksha due to one's karmic efforts, one > cannot be realised without a purified Buddhi or antahkarana. > Therefore one is brought to the edge of Moksha by Karma or Grace. Is > not Karma Grace in action? I see no diferentiation since it is all a > projection of Brahman anyway............ > > > > It doesn't matter how philosophical one gets, Sadhana is > irreplacable and absolutely necessary for achieving Moksha. > Philosophy exists in the mind and not so high in the intellect even. > A high level of awareness can only be attained through sadhana and > purifying the vijnanamakakosa or awareness sheath. It doesn't matter > if one is aware of the illusion the lower mind needs the practice > and the result is a cleansed or purified higher intellect or Buddhi. > > I for example do not accept that creation happened at all, but my > mind believes the illusion, otherwise I wouldn't be writing this. > > So I use yantras, mantras and tantras to help my lower mind. I am > aware at the intellectual level that this isn't the ultimate truth > but my lower mind doesn't. Hence the need for a certain amount of > ritual, Ishtadevatas, bhajans, mantras etc. > > As we are God then we are in fact the instrument of Grace. Which is > achieved through karm and purification of the Buddhi. There is no > outside 'God' who is going to help us and give us Grace we haven't > earned. This God is our very selves indeed, in fact we are the Sakti > we worship in fact. It is through the Sakti we gain the Nirguna, for > merging with Sakti, our own Higher Self, we become realised of > Nirguna also. At this point above attributes and bliss itself we > realise it never happened at all............ > > This doesn't conflict with the teachings of Ramana but > it is not in a bhakti vein. As Ramana said he is a prisoner on the > couch. He tolerated worship and different levels of spirituality but > left no uncertain teaching on advaita. So this site where this was > moderated is a Ramana site. However they have turned Ramana into an > Ishtadevata or God Form and are busily worshipping him it seems, > notwithstanding that the body is long gone and the jiva merged. > Nisargadatta said that only one person in Bombay/Mumbai can > understand advaita intellectually never mind realise it. This would > amount to only about 60,000 people on the planet. Out of these how > many would actually merge the consciousness and drop the illusion, > perhaps only a handful. I come from a Vedantic background so that is > my parlance. However it seems to me that the Buddhi or higher > intellect has to be purified of all the tendencies and attributes > that prevent the illusion on duality to disappear. In other words a > certain mental maturity is necessary to even practise Ramana's 'Who > am I?' Self Enquiry. All this of course creates a problem with those > who need a 'God' to give them 'Grace' and look after them somehow. > The idea that we are in fact 'God' and we provide our 'Grace' by our > practise seems to escape them although they pay lip service to it. I > have seen this time and time again even with those ostensibly > following teachers of Advaita or Non Dualism. It seems a stage has > to be reached emotionally and intellectually where one can take full > responsibility for one's own progress and karma. This isn't > surprising, what is surprising is that they turn advaitins into > Godforms they worship.............ONS..Tony. > > There is ultimately no 'God'. > > > > Yes the holocaust and killing of 11 million Jews, Russians, > Politicos, Gypsies, Gays, Communists and others indicates that there > is no God doing anything. Anymore than the killing of billions of > animals weekly is an indication of God. The Universe runs on its own > karma, even down to us dropping a piece of paper, according to > Ramana. > > There is no Personal God ultimately, only Nirguna Brahman, all this > is a projection, and illusion so to speak-----a dream. > > > > It is wound up like a clock and runs by itself, on karma. There > being only karma and prana in creation--------Grace is Saguna > Brahman. > > > > So effectivley there is no God, we are left to our own devices and > karma..........A personal Guru may advise or even give some diksha > but the rest is up to us, and even that is karmic. > > > > So all those people in the holocaust, Ruanda, Ghengis Khan > massacres, Stalin's purges etc, were getting what they had done to > others in previous lives. The billions of animals is a little more > difficult to explain. IMO It is a mixture of people born as animals > so they can suffer karma and the natural sequence of energy > consuming energy as in the world normally.........ONS..Tony. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Dear Tony, rereading your words about karma and the holocaust, I do understand why people get pissed off with you. It is very hard for someone who's family has been victimized in this abominable way to believe that their loved ones or innocent children are only getting what they did to others. That is a very uncompassionate way of putting it and words can be swords. f Also I don't believe that karma doesn't work itself out in linear ways. The small baby killed by the nazis maybe wasn't a killer in his past life, but his sanchita karmic balance might be thus that only by this horrible death may he be able to clear a lot of sanchita that had ripened to be experienced as prarabdha. Maybe I am wrong, than please correct me. But the important thing is to have compassion for the sufferings of others no matter what their karma. And also as far as I am concerned at least in one of my recent life times I suffered a horrible death, I know because of the fear I can still feel and I was an animal and something like a soldier killing others. And when I say, I was, I mean accumulated karma manifesting in the form of personality ego that I experience as consciousness. All a dream but still. Chris On Oct 24, 2004, at 23:57, christiane cameron wrote: > Dear Tony, > > I agree with you,which is why I am being insulted now on other lists. > > The thing is, that if you always remind people that everything is > illusion, then there really is no need to write about anything and > that frustrates. So on a certain level things happen and we discuss > them. > > As far as Ramana and Bhakti is concerned. Even while Ramana was alive, > most people around him followed a Bhakti path. That has not changed. > There was one guy who asked everyone who came out of the old hall in > the ashram, what they had been doing and no-one said Vichara. Bhagawan > himself said that Vichara is only for the advanced sadhaka, for the > very few. > > Sri Sadhu Om has explained the karmic stages of spiritual development > in his " The Path of Ramana Maharshi " . Bhakti in its different forms is > part of that. So you have to except that people following Ramana are > on different levels. That means some sort of patience is needed. > > Thanks for explaining that Bhakti cleanses the vijnanamayakosa. That > is what I meant by saying that the mind is shaken up and made subtle > by Bhakti. It is part of the sadhana and effort one has to make before > being able to grasp the ultimate truth. > > Love > Christina > > > > On Oct 24, 2004, at 23:31, Tony OClery wrote: > >> >> Namaste, >> >> We may be hung up on semantics and interpretation here. >> >> First of all I don't believe that ultimately 'Grace' in any form >> exists at all. For Grace is Sakti and therefore Saguna. There being >> only Nirguna Brahman, even that/Saguana is illusion. >> >> However having said that, the world is real whilst one is in it >> according to Sankara. So let us posit the existence of Saguna and >> the validity of Grace and Karma. >> >> I believe it is a given that a certain amount of work or Sadhana is >> necessary to purify the sheaths of their samskaras, and tendencies >> etc. This is an act of effort and therefore is action and therefore >> is karma, which means action in sankrit. Before one can even >> practise Who am I? and Self Enquiry one has to have a certain amount >> of mental maturity and purification. >> >> If one had only to give up the idea of being a person by saying so, >> the world would not be in illusion........It takes Sadhana not >> intellectualisation. >> >> Therefore again as there is not time and the dream actually all >> happens at once there can only be predetermination and no freewill >> in the life being lived. Therefore Moksha is predetermined also, as >> is the Sadhana required to arrive at that state of no mind. >> >> Of course we will awake to find nothing has happened at all, but in >> the meantime of relativity, there is work/sadhana/karma and a >> result/karma--------purified Buddhi and Moksha and not before. Grace >> is the Ground of Saguna, and is always there constant but our impure >> sheaths prevent its manifestation in this illusion. >> >> The only action or interference of Sakti, besides Avatars, and that >> is another debate, is that when the Buddhi is purified and all that >> is left is the 'I' feeling the Saguna subsumes its own creation >> the 'I' and Moksha is there as it always was.....So this is why I >> say Grace and Karma are the same for they are both as >> illusionary.................... >> >> Ramana in 'Be as you are', on p 111. Says the following. 'That which >> is; is only Grace, there is nothing else'. >> 'God, Grace and Guru are all synomymous;' p108. >> IMO this is all referring to Sakti or Saguna Brahman. In creation >> there can only be prana and karma. Hence everything is Grace, Prana >> and Karma. One arrives at Moksha due to one's karmic efforts, one >> cannot be realised without a purified Buddhi or antahkarana. >> Therefore one is brought to the edge of Moksha by Karma or Grace. Is >> not Karma Grace in action? I see no diferentiation since it is all a >> projection of Brahman anyway............ >> >> >> >> It doesn't matter how philosophical one gets, Sadhana is >> irreplacable and absolutely necessary for achieving Moksha. >> Philosophy exists in the mind and not so high in the intellect even. >> A high level of awareness can only be attained through sadhana and >> purifying the vijnanamakakosa or awareness sheath. It doesn't matter >> if one is aware of the illusion the lower mind needs the practice >> and the result is a cleansed or purified higher intellect or Buddhi. >> >> I for example do not accept that creation happened at all, but my >> mind believes the illusion, otherwise I wouldn't be writing this. >> >> So I use yantras, mantras and tantras to help my lower mind. I am >> aware at the intellectual level that this isn't the ultimate truth >> but my lower mind doesn't. Hence the need for a certain amount of >> ritual, Ishtadevatas, bhajans, mantras etc. >> >> As we are God then we are in fact the instrument of Grace. Which is >> achieved through karm and purification of the Buddhi. There is no >> outside 'God' who is going to help us and give us Grace we haven't >> earned. This God is our very selves indeed, in fact we are the Sakti >> we worship in fact. It is through the Sakti we gain the Nirguna, for >> merging with Sakti, our own Higher Self, we become realised of >> Nirguna also. At this point above attributes and bliss itself we >> realise it never happened at all............ >> >> This doesn't conflict with the teachings of Ramana but >> it is not in a bhakti vein. As Ramana said he is a prisoner on the >> couch. He tolerated worship and different levels of spirituality but >> left no uncertain teaching on advaita. So this site where this was >> moderated is a Ramana site. However they have turned Ramana into an >> Ishtadevata or God Form and are busily worshipping him it seems, >> notwithstanding that the body is long gone and the jiva merged. >> Nisargadatta said that only one person in Bombay/Mumbai can >> understand advaita intellectually never mind realise it. This would >> amount to only about 60,000 people on the planet. Out of these how >> many would actually merge the consciousness and drop the illusion, >> perhaps only a handful. I come from a Vedantic background so that is >> my parlance. However it seems to me that the Buddhi or higher >> intellect has to be purified of all the tendencies and attributes >> that prevent the illusion on duality to disappear. In other words a >> certain mental maturity is necessary to even practise Ramana's 'Who >> am I?' Self Enquiry. All this of course creates a problem with those >> who need a 'God' to give them 'Grace' and look after them somehow. >> The idea that we are in fact 'God' and we provide our 'Grace' by our >> practise seems to escape them although they pay lip service to it. I >> have seen this time and time again even with those ostensibly >> following teachers of Advaita or Non Dualism. It seems a stage has >> to be reached emotionally and intellectually where one can take full >> responsibility for one's own progress and karma. This isn't >> surprising, what is surprising is that they turn advaitins into >> Godforms they worship.............ONS..Tony. >> >> There is ultimately no 'God'. >> >> >> >> Yes the holocaust and killing of 11 million Jews, Russians, >> Politicos, Gypsies, Gays, Communists and others indicates that there >> is no God doing anything. Anymore than the killing of billions of >> animals weekly is an indication of God. The Universe runs on its own >> karma, even down to us dropping a piece of paper, according to >> Ramana. >> >> There is no Personal God ultimately, only Nirguna Brahman, all this >> is a projection, and illusion so to speak-----a dream. >> >> >> >> It is wound up like a clock and runs by itself, on karma. There >> being only karma and prana in creation--------Grace is Saguna >> Brahman. >> >> >> >> So effectivley there is no God, we are left to our own devices and >> karma..........A personal Guru may advise or even give some diksha >> but the rest is up to us, and even that is karmic. >> >> >> >> So all those people in the holocaust, Ruanda, Ghengis Khan >> massacres, Stalin's purges etc, were getting what they had done to >> others in previous lives. The billions of animals is a little more >> difficult to explain. IMO It is a mixture of people born as animals >> so they can suffer karma and the natural sequence of energy >> consuming energy as in the world normally.........ONS..Tony. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 advaitajnana , christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > Dear Tony, > > rereading your words about karma and the holocaust, I do understand why > people get pissed off with you. It is very hard for someone who's > family has been victimized in this abominable way to believe that their > loved ones or innocent children are only getting what they did to > others. That is a very uncompassionate way of putting it and words can > be swords. > contact: christianecameron@m... Namaste Chris, I am rather direct in speech, due in part to my cultural background. However nothing can be as blunt as the Bible.'An eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth.'. 'And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.'--Jesus-Luke XVI:17 Or even physics. Opinions on karma again are only within illusion, for who suffers karma? Some people due to attachments may identify with the suffering of others, and some may identify due to compassion or Daya. It is a fact that those in the holocaust-----11.5 million, 25 million Russians, 1 million Ruandans are suffering and 10,000 dying a month in Darfur as we speak, and many unsung. However as bad as this suffering is, it is through compassion that they get it, there is no bad karma as such. For it is all to wake us up. The purpose of it is to shock one and others, so what is the point in trying to hide it. It happened and it will continue that is the lesson. No one group of suffereres is more important or suffered worse than any other. However indifference to lessons continues to haunt us. Perhaps people getting pissed off at me is another part of memorising the lesson, whether they hate me or not is immaterial to me. A good book on Karma is Edgar Cayce's it is a good guide. For example a woman suffering from a cancer in the hip, was suffering for she laughed as a lion chewed on the hip of a woman in the Roman Arena.......So there is always a balancing lesson until one wakes up to the end of the dream..............ONS.........Tony. As you know I was accused of anti semitism on Harsha because of all this, and hiding behind my Jewish grandmother's skirts etc etc. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Everyone has a right to exist in the dream until it ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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