Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 This is a delicate issue, quite paradoxical to outward intellect. And it is depends essentially on the relationship between teacher and disciple. The following is from Nitya Tripta's book ('Notes on Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda', 8th March 1958, note 29): " Is 'vicara' thinking about the Truth? No. It is entirely different. 'Vicara' is a relentless enquiry into the truth of the Self and the world, utilizing only higher reason and right discrimination. It is not thinking at all. You come to 'know' the meaning and the goal of vicara only on listening to the words of the Guru. But subsequently, you take to that very same knowing, over and over again. That is no thinking at all. This additional effort is necessary in order to destroy samskaras. When the possessive identification with samskaras no longer occurs, you may be said to have transcended them. You cannot think about anything you do not know. Therefore thinking about the Truth is not possible till you visualize it for the first time. Then you understand that Truth can never be made the object of thought, since it is in a different plane. Thus thinking about the Truth is never possible. The expression only means knowing, over and over again, the Truth already known. " There is knowing in deep sleep, but it is not a knowing of any object that is separate from self. The experience of deep sleep is pure knowing or pure light, unmixed with any object. The objects that appeared in waking and in dreams are thus absorbed by deep sleep into pure light, utterly unmixed with any darkness or obscurity. It's only in the waking and dream states that darkness or obscurity gets mixed up with light, through the seeming presence of objects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Dear Tony, There is no difference between Self and Truth. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Mantra spoken at death " Ram Nam Sat Hai " ? God's Name is Truth. When the Self is revealed by Vichara Truth is known. Om Arunachala Shiva Christiane On Dec 17, 2004, at 19:46, Tony OClery wrote: > > This is a delicate issue, quite paradoxical to outward intellect. > And it is depends essentially on the relationship between teacher > and disciple. The following is from Nitya Tripta's book ('Notes on > Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda', 8th March 1958, note 29): > > > > " Is 'vicara' thinking about the Truth? No. It is entirely > different. 'Vicara' is a relentless enquiry into the truth of the > Self and the world, utilizing only higher reason and right > discrimination. It is not thinking at all. You come to 'know' the > meaning and the goal of vicara only on listening to the words of the > Guru. But subsequently, you take to that very same knowing, over and > over again. That is no thinking at all. This additional effort is > necessary in order to destroy samskaras. When the possessive > identification with samskaras no longer occurs, you may be said to > have transcended them. You cannot think about anything you do not > know. Therefore thinking about the Truth is not possible till you > visualize it for the first time. Then you understand that Truth can > never be made the object of thought, since it is in a different > plane. Thus thinking about the Truth is never possible. The > expression only means knowing, over and over again, the Truth > already known. " > > > > There is knowing in deep sleep, but it is not a knowing of any > object that is separate from self. The experience of deep sleep is > pure knowing or pure light, unmixed with any object. The objects > that appeared in waking and in dreams are thus absorbed by deep > sleep into pure light, utterly unmixed with any darkness or > obscurity. It's only in the waking and dream states that darkness or > obscurity gets mixed up with light, through the seeming presence of > objects. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 advaitajnana , christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > Dear Tony, > > There is no difference between Self and Truth. Correct me if I am > wrong, but isn't the Mantra spoken at death " Ram Nam Sat Hai " ? > God's Name is Truth. > > When the Self is revealed by Vichara Truth is known. > > Om Arunachala Shiva > Christiane Namaste Christiane, So many people have different concepts, of Truth. If one is talking of a name then that is an attribute and therefore Iswara or Saguna and not Nirguna. So 'Self' as is talked of by Ramana is usually Saguna. Or with attributes but it isn't the ultimate Nirguna. Ramana is aware of course if one realises Saguna one realises Nirguna as well. So Saguna is the Truth but not the ultimate truth. For we cannot talk of form or formlessness with regard to Brahman really. For they are concepts of the mind and therefore unreal, and never happened. Using a mantra at death may take one to the Brahmaloka and not bodiless Moksha, for it is a concept or a thought/mind.....IMO...ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 advaitajnana , christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > Dear Tony, > > There is no difference between Self and Truth. Correct me if I am > wrong, but isn't the Mantra spoken at death " Ram Nam Sat Hai " ? > God's Name is Truth. > > When the Self is revealed by Vichara Truth is known. > > Om Arunachala Shiva > Christiane Namaste C, Here is another treatment of the same subject. Turiya and then to Turiya-atita.............ONS....Tony. " Beyond the Turiya stage and thus beyond the gunas, lies, according the Yoga Vasistha, the Turiya-atita stage. This stage is said to be beyond even That which is termed 'Brahman', the 'Self'. Give up the attempt to know, to strive, " for it is beyond the practices which are described by those who undertake them. O sage, remain for ever in the third state [Turiya-atita]. That is the real worship of the Lord. Then you will be established in that which is beyond what is and what is not. Nothing has been created and there is nothing to vanish. It is beyond the one and the two. It is the eternal, beyond the eternal and the transient; it is all, it is suprem blessedness and peace, it is beyond expression. It is purest OM. It is transcendent. It is supreme. " (Yoga Vasistha, VI.1.34). " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Dear Tony, forgive my asking, you don't have to answer of course. Do you practice vichara? I was not talking about a name, only mentioning the mantra. I was talking about experience and not a concept. Self or awareness is truth, or call it purity, or without attritbutes. But then again its beyond words probably. OAS Chris On Dec 17, 2004, at 21:39, Tony OClery wrote: > > advaitajnana , christiane cameron > <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > > Dear Tony, > > > > There is no difference between Self and Truth. Correct me if I am > > wrong, but isn't the Mantra spoken at death " Ram Nam Sat Hai " ? > > God's Name is Truth. > > > > When the Self is revealed by Vichara Truth is known. > > > > Om Arunachala Shiva > > Christiane > > Namaste Christiane, > > So many people have different concepts, of Truth. If one is talking > of a name then that is an attribute and therefore Iswara or Saguna > and not Nirguna. So 'Self' as is talked of by Ramana is usually > Saguna. Or with attributes but it isn't the ultimate Nirguna. Ramana > is aware of course if one realises Saguna one realises Nirguna as > well. So Saguna is the Truth but not the ultimate truth. For we > cannot talk of form or formlessness with regard to Brahman really. > For they are concepts of the mind and therefore unreal, and never > happened. > > Using a mantra at death may take one to the Brahmaloka and not > bodiless Moksha, for it is a concept or a > thought/mind.....IMO...ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 advaitajnana , christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > Dear Tony, > > forgive my asking, you don't have to answer of course. > > Do you practice vichara? Namaste, I do some meditation with initial mantras, energising, asanas, Ko- Ham, etc, for concentration then my method is concentrating on the place where the nose and lips meet. I usually leave the mantra playing but pay no mind to it really. I just try and eliminate all thoughts as they arise.........I don't have any memory of this most of the time...This is a little Buddhistic I suppose.,,,I can of let the feeling of 'I' or presence of Being arise........That's it..Many times I go unconscious into perhaps Yoga Laya.......I don't know.....ONS...........Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 advaitajnana , " Tony OClery " <aoclery> wrote: > > advaitajnana , christiane cameron > <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > > Dear Tony, > > > > forgive my asking, you don't have to answer of course. > > > > Do you practice vichara? > > Namaste, > > I do some meditation with initial mantras, energising, asanas, Ko- > Ham, etc, for concentration then my method is concentrating on the > place where the nose and lips meet. I usually leave the mantra > playing but pay no mind to it really. I just try and eliminate all > thoughts as they arise.........I don't have any memory of this most > of the time...This is a little Buddhistic I suppose.,,,I can of let > the feeling of 'I' or presence of Being arise........That's it..Many > times I go unconscious into perhaps Yoga Laya.......I don't > know.....ONS...........Tony. Namaste, From Sri Atmananda. " 1952, note 296 How to sleep knowingly? Know that you are going to sleep. Let that thought be as vague as possible. Then empty your mind of all intruding thoughts, taking care not to strain the mind in the least. Having understood from the Guru that your real nature alone shines in its own glory in deep sleep, if you relax into deep sleep as already suggested, the deep sleep shall no longer be a state, but your real nature, even beyond 'nirvikalpa samAdhi'. [This note is linked to the following statement - from the appendix, 'Some Spiritual Statements ...':] Sleep involuntarily and you will be taken to the ignorant man's deep sleep. Sleep voluntarily and you will be taken to nirvikalpa samAdhi. Sleep knowingly and you will be taken right to your real nature (your natural state) beyond all samAdhi. " ............ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Dear Tony, thank you for your open answer. Maybe I shouldn't be afraid to answer equally open. About Truth. First of all, vichara has nothing to do with thinking, as we both know. All Sages and philosophers agree. The Self is hard to describe. Or the experience of Self of Brahman. And even if you say Nirguna is without qualities, then that is also a quality in a sense. To be able to communicate an experience, we mostly have to rely on language. Language uses adjectives to describe something. To describe an experience to someone who has not had the same, we give it a flavour so the person can digest it. From my own humble efforts at vichara I found that there are different flavours and they may correspond to the different types of samadhi, for all I know, my not being an Advaita scholar. And accordingly the Self is experienced, say, more or less strongly. In every day life it is felt, like Ramana said, as a continuous undercurrent. But there was a wonderful time , when I had the leisure to do intensive sadhana. That was a few years ago in India. What was experienced in that particular stage of samadhi is best described as Truth. Truth here says something just is, is plain, is right, is clear, is pure, is pristine, without doubt, one and only Truth or Satya is the word that comes closest to the flavour tasted then. And being allowed to experience THAT is bliss. Later came to mind that this could be the meaning of " Ram Nam Sat Hai " God's name is Truth Indeed It has nothing to do with Ishwara in my opinion, at least not on a higher level. And there is a reason why this mantra should only be spoken at death. Because ordinary Bhaktas experience Brahman only at death. But I could be wrong here. If there are learned members who know better, please correct me. Tony, what is happening to your memory? Do you fall asleep when meditating? Surely you must remember something of your experience. Unless its really Laya. In that case the question is, who is experiencing the laya. Then again, who am I to tell you that. Warm regards Om Arunchala Shiva Christiane P.S. The time just before dropping of to sleep and just before waking up is an excellent time to practice vichara. Bhagawan has stressed this and a few devotess have written about it. Because at that time thoughts are naturally suspended. So try and prolong the moment until you find it easy enough and you will be able to do it at all times eventually. On Dec 18, 2004, at 19:53, Tony OClery wrote: > > advaitajnana , " Tony OClery " <aoclery> > wrote: > > > > advaitajnana , christiane cameron > > <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > > > Dear Tony, > > > > > > forgive my asking, you don't have to answer of course. > > > > > > Do you practice vichara? > > > > Namaste, > > > > I do some meditation with initial mantras, energising, asanas, Ko- > > Ham, etc, for concentration then my method is concentrating on the > > place where the nose and lips meet. I usually leave the mantra > > playing but pay no mind to it really. I just try and eliminate all > > thoughts as they arise.........I don't have any memory of this > most > > of the time...This is a little Buddhistic I suppose.,,,I can of > let > > the feeling of 'I' or presence of Being arise........That's > it..Many > > times I go unconscious into perhaps Yoga Laya.......I don't > > know.....ONS...........Tony. > > Namaste, From Sri Atmananda. > " 1952, note 296 > > > > How to sleep knowingly? > > > > Know that you are going to sleep. Let that thought be as vague as > possible. Then empty your mind of all intruding thoughts, taking > care not to strain the mind in the least. Having understood from the > Guru that your real nature alone shines in its own glory in deep > sleep, if you relax into deep sleep as already suggested, the deep > sleep shall no longer be a state, but your real nature, even > beyond 'nirvikalpa samAdhi'. > > > > [This note is linked to the following statement - from the > appendix, 'Some Spiritual Statements ...':] > > > > Sleep involuntarily and you will be taken to the ignorant man's deep > sleep. Sleep voluntarily and you will be taken to nirvikalpa > samAdhi. > > Sleep knowingly and you will be taken right to your real nature > (your natural state) beyond all samAdhi. " > > ...........ONS...Tony. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 advaitajnana , christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > Dear Tony, > > thank you for your open answer. > > Maybe I shouldn't be afraid to answer equally open. About Truth. > > First of all, vichara has nothing to do with thinking, as we both know. > > All Sages and philosophers agree. The Self is hard to describe. Or the > experience of Self of Brahman. And even if you say Nirguna is without > qualities, then that is also a quality in a sense. To be able to > communicate an experience, we mostly have to rely on language. Language > uses adjectives to describe something. To describe an experience to > someone who has not had the same, we give it a flavour so the person > can digest it. > > From my own humble efforts at vichara I found that there are different > flavours and they may correspond to the different types of samadhi, > for all I know, my not being an Advaita scholar. And accordingly the > Self is experienced, say, more or less strongly. In every day life it > is felt, like Ramana said, as a continuous undercurrent. But there was > a wonderful time , when I had the leisure to do intensive sadhana. > That was a few years ago in India. What was experienced in that > particular stage of samadhi is best described as Truth. Truth here says > something just is, is plain, is right, is clear, is pure, is pristine, > without doubt, one and only > > Truth or Satya is the word that comes closest to the flavour tasted > then. And being allowed to experience THAT is bliss. > > Later came to mind that this could be the meaning of " Ram Nam Sat Hai " > God's name is Truth Indeed > > It has nothing to do with Ishwara in my opinion, at least not on a > higher level. And there is a reason why this mantra should only be > spoken at death. Because ordinary Bhaktas experience Brahman only at > death. But I could be wrong here. If there are learned members who know > better, please correct me. > > > > Tony, what is happening to your memory? Do you fall asleep when > meditating? Surely you must remember something of your experience. > Unless its really Laya. In that case the question is, who is > experiencing the laya. Then again, who am I to tell you that. > > Warm regards > > Om Arunchala Shiva > Christiane > > > > P.S. The time just before dropping of to sleep and just before waking > up is an excellent time to practice vichara. Bhagawan has stressed this > and a few devotess have written about it. Because at that time thoughts > are naturally suspended. So try and prolong the moment until you find > it easy enough and you will be able to do it at all times eventually. Namaste Christiane, Yes I constantly think of 'Who am I?'feeling, during my day to day activities, so the enquiry is always there. I know about the hynogogic state and have experienced some Bliss type event on waking. My daily meditation is a form of that for I look for a samadhi of some kind. That is why I say Laya or Nidra, for if it is above the mind there will be no memory of it all, which is my usual case. So I don't know whether this is Sushupti or what, as I am not looking for any Savikalpa/Saguna experience, or any experience at all..........ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Dear Tony, Ramana says Brahman is reflected by the sattvic mind. That is how the Self is known by embodied beings. If there was no Jnana, that is how you understand Saguna if I am correct, then how could any sage ever talk or write about it. Then we wouldn't have non-dual knowledge. And no Shankara, or Ramakrishna or Ramana would have been able to teach about Brahman. Forgive me, but the idea comes to my mind, that you are rationalizing your own non-experience or Laya. Om Arunachala Shiva Chris On Dec 18, 2004, at 22:30, Tony OClery wrote: > > advaitajnana , christiane cameron > <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > > Dear Tony, > > > > thank you for your open answer. > > > > Maybe I shouldn't be afraid to answer equally open. About Truth. > > > > First of all, vichara has nothing to do with thinking, as we both > know. > > > > All Sages and philosophers agree. The Self is hard to describe. Or > the > > experience of Self of Brahman. And even if you say Nirguna is > without > > qualities, then that is also a quality in a sense. To be able to > > communicate an experience, we mostly have to rely on language. > Language > > uses adjectives to describe something. To describe an experience > to > > someone who has not had the same, we give it a flavour so the > person > > can digest it. > > > > From my own humble efforts at vichara I found that there are > different > > flavours and they may correspond to the different types of > samadhi, > > for all I know, my not being an Advaita scholar. And accordingly > the > > Self is experienced, say, more or less strongly. In every day life > it > > is felt, like Ramana said, as a continuous undercurrent. But > there was > > a wonderful time , when I had the leisure to do intensive > sadhana. > > That was a few years ago in India. What was experienced in that > > particular stage of samadhi is best described as Truth. Truth here > says > > something just is, is plain, is right, is clear, is pure, is > pristine, > > without doubt, one and only > > > > Truth or Satya is the word that comes closest to the flavour > tasted > > then. And being allowed to experience THAT is bliss. > > > > Later came to mind that this could be the meaning of " Ram Nam Sat > Hai " > > God's name is Truth Indeed > > > > It has nothing to do with Ishwara in my opinion, at least not on a > > higher level. And there is a reason why this mantra should only be > > spoken at death. Because ordinary Bhaktas experience Brahman only > at > > death. But I could be wrong here. If there are learned members who > know > > better, please correct me. > > > > > > > > Tony, what is happening to your memory? Do you fall asleep when > > meditating? Surely you must remember something of your > experience. > > Unless its really Laya. In that case the question is, who is > > experiencing the laya. Then again, who am I to tell you that. > > > > Warm regards > > > > Om Arunchala Shiva > > Christiane > > > > > > > > P.S. The time just before dropping of to sleep and just before > waking > > up is an excellent time to practice vichara. Bhagawan has stressed > this > > and a few devotess have written about it. Because at that time > thoughts > > are naturally suspended. So try and prolong the moment until you > find > > it easy enough and you will be able to do it at all times > eventually. > > Namaste Christiane, > > Yes I constantly think of 'Who am I?'feeling, during my day to day > activities, so the enquiry is always there. > > I know about the hynogogic state and have experienced some Bliss > type event on waking. > > My daily meditation is a form of that for I look for a samadhi of > some kind. That is why I say Laya or Nidra, for if it is above the > mind there will be no memory of it all, which is my usual case. So I > don't know whether this is Sushupti or what, as I am not looking for > any Savikalpa/Saguna experience, or any experience at > all..........ONS...> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 advaitajnana , christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > Dear Tony, > > Ramana says Brahman is reflected by the sattvic mind. That is how the > Self is known by embodied beings. If there was no Jnana, that is how > you understand Saguna if I am correct, then how could any sage ever > talk or write about it. Then we wouldn't have non-dual knowledge. And > no Shankara, or Ramakrishna or Ramana would have been able to teach > about Brahman. > > Forgive me, but the idea comes to my mind, that you are rationalizing > your own non-experience or Laya. > > > > Om Arunachala Shiva > Chris Namaste Chris, I could very well be rationalising for I have no memory of the state. Obviously when Ramana and others talk of the Self, to the main audience it is Saguna. A purified or sattic vijnanamayakosa is essentially realisation for purification in no Ego thought. It is said the last step is taken by the Self in pulling one into realisation. At that stage one is the Self without veils. My Layas or nidras or states, are different according to how I feel when I come out of it. Everything from slight irritation to being out and sometimes Bliss, so there we are. Talking about non experienceing.............Again when bliss energies occur in conscious meditation, I let them ride as I have interest in experiencing at all. Bliss can be the last impediment.........ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 P.S. Jnana here is maybe the wrong term. I mean experience or knowledge of Self. Non existent is only the experiencer as ego. On Dec 19, 2004, at 22:09, christiane cameron wrote: > Dear Tony, > > Ramana says Brahman is reflected by the sattvic mind. That is how the > Self is known by embodied beings. If there was no Jnana, that is how > you understand Saguna if I am correct, then how could any sage ever > talk or write about it. Then we wouldn't have non-dual knowledge. And > no Shankara, or Ramakrishna or Ramana would have been able to teach > about Brahman. > > Forgive me, but the idea comes to my mind, that you are rationalizing > your own non-experience or Laya. > > > > Om Arunachala Shiva > Chris > > > > > On Dec 18, 2004, at 22:30, Tony OClery wrote: > >> >> advaitajnana , christiane cameron >> <christianecameron@m...> wrote: >> > Dear Tony, >> > >> > thank you for your open answer. >> > >> > Maybe I shouldn't be afraid to answer equally open. About Truth. >> > >> > First of all, vichara has nothing to do with thinking, as we both >> know. >> > >> > All Sages and philosophers agree. The Self is hard to describe. Or >> the >> > experience of Self of Brahman. And even if you say Nirguna is >> without >> > qualities, then that is also a quality in a sense. To be able to >> > communicate an experience, we mostly have to rely on language. >> Language >> > uses adjectives to describe something. To describe an experience >> to >> > someone who has not had the same, we give it a flavour so the >> person >> > can digest it. >> > >> > From my own humble efforts at vichara I found that there are >> different >> > flavours and they may correspond to the different types of >> samadhi, >> > for all I know, my not being an Advaita scholar. And accordingly >> the >> > Self is experienced, say, more or less strongly. In every day life >> it >> > is felt, like Ramana said, as a continuous undercurrent. But >> there was >> > a wonderful time , when I had the leisure to do intensive >> sadhana. >> > That was a few years ago in India. What was experienced in that >> > particular stage of samadhi is best described as Truth. Truth here >> says >> > something just is, is plain, is right, is clear, is pure, is >> pristine, >> > without doubt, one and only >> > >> > Truth or Satya is the word that comes closest to the flavour >> tasted >> > then. And being allowed to experience THAT is bliss. >> > >> > Later came to mind that this could be the meaning of " Ram Nam Sat >> Hai " >> > God's name is Truth Indeed >> > >> > It has nothing to do with Ishwara in my opinion, at least not on a >> > higher level. And there is a reason why this mantra should only be >> > spoken at death. Because ordinary Bhaktas experience Brahman only >> at >> > death. But I could be wrong here. If there are learned members who >> know >> > better, please correct me. >> > >> > >> > >> > Tony, what is happening to your memory? Do you fall asleep when >> > meditating? Surely you must remember something of your >> experience. >> > Unless its really Laya. In that case the question is, who is >> > experiencing the laya. Then again, who am I to tell you that. >> > >> > Warm regards >> > >> > Om Arunchala Shiva >> > Christiane >> > >> > >> > >> > P.S. The time just before dropping of to sleep and just before >> waking >> > up is an excellent time to practice vichara. Bhagawan has stressed >> this >> > and a few devotess have written about it. Because at that time >> thoughts >> > are naturally suspended. So try and prolong the moment until you >> find >> > it easy enough and you will be able to do it at all times >> eventually. >> >> Namaste Christiane, >> >> Yes I constantly think of 'Who am I?'feeling, during my day to day >> activities, so the enquiry is always there. >> >> I know about the hynogogic state and have experienced some Bliss >> type event on waking. >> >> My daily meditation is a form of that for I look for a samadhi of >> some kind. That is why I say Laya or Nidra, for if it is above the >> mind there will be no memory of it all, which is my usual case. So I >> don't know whether this is Sushupti or what, as I am not looking for >> any Savikalpa/Saguna experience, or any experience at >> all..........ONS...>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 > Hi Tony, Bliss certainly is an impediment, as there is someone experiencing it. So no choice but to press on with Vichara, as taught by Maharshi until the state is reached where the Self takes over and no more effort is needed. The Self is nothing but " blissful pure consciousness I am " (Talks) But I still don't understand why you don't have memory unless you fall into coma. How can you possibly forget your Self, forget BEING, forget AWARENESS. It is always there, honestly. It is there all the time. Only when thoughts occur due to vasanas, is Self veiled until one remembers and stops thinking. And after a while one is even aware when thinking. With Love Chris > > Namaste Chris, > > I could very well be rationalising for I have no memory of the > state. Obviously when Ramana and others talk of the Self, to the > main audience it is Saguna. A purified or sattic vijnanamayakosa is > essentially realisation for purification in no Ego thought. > It is said the last step is taken by the Self in pulling one into > realisation. At that stage one is the Self without veils. > My Layas or nidras or states, are different according to how I feel > when I come out of it. Everything from slight irritation to being > out and sometimes Bliss, so there we are. Talking about non > experienceing.............Again when bliss energies occur in > conscious meditation, I let them ride as I have interest in > experiencing at all. Bliss can be the last > impediment.........ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 advaitajnana , christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > > > Hi Tony, > > Bliss certainly is an impediment, as there is someone experiencing it. > So no choice but to press on with Vichara, as taught by Maharshi until > the state is reached where the Self takes over and no more effort is > needed. The Self is nothing but " blissful pure consciousness I am " > (Talks) > > But I still don't understand why you don't have memory unless you fall > into coma. How can you possibly forget your Self, forget BEING, forget > AWARENESS. It is always there, honestly. It is there all the time. Only > when thoughts occur due to vasanas, is Self veiled until one remembers > and stops thinking. And after a while one is even aware when thinking. > > With Love > > Chris Namaste Chris, I suppose if one goes into something beyond the manifest, there can be no memory. What is there to remember? Nirvikalp means no kalpas or thoughts etc. Nirguna or Nirvana all the same, so there is nothing to remember, although it isn't empty either, if thats the right world.......I suppose I just don't know..........ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Dear Tony, Maybe memory is another wrong term. Because memory means that something has been lost and is then regained, remembered. The Self is always there, it doesn't come and go, only the mind under the influence of the gunas perceives it like this. So when trying to describe a samadhi experience it is more like describing a slight change in flavour of a substance. If the self is chocolate then sahaja would be milk chocolate and nirvikalpa dark chocolate. The chocolate is always there and tasted only the flavour changes. It really is hard to put into words. Love Chris On Dec 19, 2004, at 23:15, Tony OClery wrote: > > advaitajnana , christiane cameron > <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > > > > > Hi Tony, > > > > Bliss certainly is an impediment, as there is someone experiencing > it. > > So no choice but to press on with Vichara, as taught by Maharshi > until > > the state is reached where the Self takes over and no more > effort is > > needed. The Self is nothing but " blissful pure consciousness I am " > > (Talks) > > > > But I still don't understand why you don't have memory unless you > fall > > into coma. How can you possibly forget your Self, forget BEING, > forget > > AWARENESS. It is always there, honestly. It is there all the time. > Only > > when thoughts occur due to vasanas, is Self veiled until one > remembers > > and stops thinking. And after a while one is even aware when > thinking. > > > > With Love > > > > Chris > > Namaste Chris, > > I suppose if one goes into something beyond the manifest, there can > be no memory. What is there to remember? Nirvikalp means no kalpas > or thoughts etc. Nirguna or Nirvana all the same, so there is > nothing to remember, although it isn't empty either, if thats the > right world.......I suppose I just don't know..........ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 advaitajnana , christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > Dear Tony, > > Maybe memory is another wrong term. Because memory means that > something has been lost and is then regained, remembered. The Self is > always there, it doesn't come and go, only the mind under the influence > of the gunas perceives it like this. So when trying to describe a > samadhi experience it is more like describing a slight change in > flavour of a substance. If the self is chocolate then sahaja would be > milk chocolate and nirvikalpa dark chocolate. The chocolate is always > there and tasted only the flavour changes. It really is hard to put > into words. > > Love > Chris Namaste C, Yes I can recall a 'feeling' but that can be noticed in daily life as well. I just know that afterwards I feel very good and mellow etc etc. I have an idea that if I didn't become unconconsious I would perhaps become realised-------who knows..............ONS...Love Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Dear Tony, we are coming closer. Of course the " feeling " or maybe better, Sphurana, is there in daily life also. That is leading to Sahaja. Maybe it helps to shift focus from deep samadhi sessions to daily life, and try and remain with that Sphurana, staying conscious and eliminating thoughts as much as possible. Your idea about not becoming unconscious sounds right. Anyway Realization is already there, its just not as dramatic as one expects, I suppose. Its just ever lasting never changing never ending peace. And thats bliss. OAS Chris On Dec 20, 2004, at 00:00, Tony OClery wrote: > > advaitajnana , christiane cameron > <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > > Dear Tony, > > > > Maybe memory is another wrong term. Because memory means that > > something has been lost and is then regained, remembered. The > Self is > > always there, it doesn't come and go, only the mind under the > influence > > of the gunas perceives it like this. So when trying to describe a > > samadhi experience it is more like describing a slight change in > > flavour of a substance. If the self is chocolate then sahaja would > be > > milk chocolate and nirvikalpa dark chocolate. The chocolate is > always > > there and tasted only the flavour changes. It really is hard to > put > > into words. > > > > Love > > Chris > > Namaste C, > > Yes I can recall a 'feeling' but that can be noticed in daily life > as well. I just know that afterwards I feel very good and mellow etc > etc. I have an idea that if I didn't become unconconsious I would > perhaps become realised-------who knows..............ONS...Love Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 When Suka, the son of sage Vyasa, realized the Self, he did not believe either himself nor his father, who confirmed his achievement, because he felt that he had not yet solved the riddle of the world as Maya. Thus his father sent him to Janaka, the royal sage. King Janaka put him to several tests, which the youthful Suka passed in the calm and composed way of the real sage. Accordingly King Janaka confirmed his Self-Realization. Suka remonstrated: But there is still the problem of Maya.... King Janaka smiled: Drop it! The same moment Suka " saw " that the Truth of the world was the same as his own Truth. Ramana says in the forty verses: The world is real, no, it is a false appearance. The world is sentient, no it is not. The world is happiness, no it is not. What is the use of such disputes? That state is agreeable to all in which , ignoring the world, one knows one's Self, abandoning both unity and duality, and the ego sense is gone. On Dec 20, 2004, at 00:14, christiane cameron wrote: > Dear Tony, > > we are coming closer. > Of course the " feeling " or maybe better, Sphurana, is there in daily > life also. That is leading to Sahaja. > Maybe it helps to shift focus from deep samadhi sessions to daily > life, and try and remain with that Sphurana, staying conscious and > eliminating thoughts as much as possible. Your idea about not becoming > unconscious sounds right. Anyway Realization is already there, its > just not as dramatic as one expects, I suppose. Its just ever lasting > never changing never ending peace. And thats bliss. > > OAS > Chris > > > On Dec 20, 2004, at 00:00, Tony OClery wrote: > >> >> advaitajnana , christiane cameron >> <christianecameron@m...> wrote: >> > Dear Tony, >> > >> > Maybe memory is another wrong term. Because memory means that >> > something has been lost and is then regained, remembered. The >> Self is >> > always there, it doesn't come and go, only the mind under the >> influence >> > of the gunas perceives it like this. So when trying to describe a >> > samadhi experience it is more like describing a slight change in >> > flavour of a substance. If the self is chocolate then sahaja would >> be >> > milk chocolate and nirvikalpa dark chocolate. The chocolate is >> always >> > there and tasted only the flavour changes. It really is hard to >> put >> > into words. >> > >> > Love >> > Chris >> >> Namaste C, >> >> Yes I can recall a 'feeling' but that can be noticed in daily life >> as well. I just know that afterwards I feel very good and mellow etc >> etc. I have an idea that if I didn't become unconconsious I would >> perhaps become realised-------who knows..............ONS...Love Tony. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 advaitajnana , christiane cameron <christianecameron@m...> wrote: > Dear Tony, > > we are coming closer. > Of course the " feeling " or maybe better, Sphurana, is there in daily > life also. That is leading to Sahaja. > Maybe it helps to shift focus from deep samadhi sessions to daily life, > and try and remain with that Sphurana, staying conscious and > eliminating thoughts as much as possible. Your idea about not becoming > unconscious sounds right. Anyway Realization is already there, its just > not as dramatic as one expects, I suppose. Its just ever lasting never > changing never ending peace. And thats bliss. > > OAS > Chris Namaste Chris, I think the unconscious bit is a cross roads, only preserved by samskaras and desires...........ONS...........Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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