What actually causes duality to persist?

[Guest guest]

Namaste All IMHO,

 

Duality persists due to lack of peace and relaxation.

(The Bliss of the Anandamaya kosa is deep sleep or relaxation but

it is in nescience.)

 

The constant moving of consciousness between the dream and awakening

state preserves duality. In one state samskaras are created and in

the other they are dreamed of or picked up again. It is like someone

moving grain from a barn to the field and then back to the barn

again continually.

 

Past impressions or vasanas and samskaras constantly bring pleasure

and pain and in the dream state there are even glimpses of future

lives. It is a never ending bottomless pit of impressions, created

in past and present lives.

 

So really the impressions in the dream and awake state are like one

great mass or 'prajnanaa-ghana'. Overwhelming one's senses like

darkness with no clear view.

 

So no matter how verbal non dualist or intellectual one is, without

purification one is still going back and forth between the states of

dream and awake, between the barn and the field.....ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

NonDualPhil , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

wrote:

 

NonDualPhil , " Samadhi Ma " <samaadhi@h...>

wrote:

>> Tony,

>

> What actually causes duality to persist?, you ask.

>

> The false belief that the ego-ghost is real perpetuates duality.

> Abandon all ideas that mind/ego is real. Mind/ego do not exist, in

> Truth. Pure Being, alone, is Real.

>

> Duality is ignorance. What is being ignored? The essential

Self,

> Being, the Truth of ones' Self.

>

> At any one moment, one is either enquiring into ones' own true

Self,

> or else one is enquiring into the world. The choice is yours. If

> you want duality to vanish, then unceasingly enquire into your

very

> own essence, pure consciousness, bliss. Bliss is your natural

> state. Shine as the blazing light of bliss consciousness that you

> truly are.

>

> Samadhi Ma

> Rural Northern California

 

Namaste,SM,

 

That is true in the Jagrat and waking state, unfortunately there is

the dream or subconscious state with all our previous impressions

and samskaras. If we didn't visit that state then pure intellectual

enquiry would suffice. However we don't so a process of sadhana or

purification is required. For there are many samskaras that the

conscious mind is unaware of. Bliss is a much misused word. For

example it is used for the deep sleep state, when in fact that state

is actually a state of deepest relaxation. Bliss is something else

altogether and is the last impediment.

 

What you say is alright if it is not restricted to intellectual

enquiry only and accompanies some kind of sadhana, bhakti practices

or whatever.............IMHO...Tony.

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

NonDualPhil , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

wrote:

NonDualPhil , " Wim Borsboom "

<wim_borsboom> wrote:

> Hi all

>

> For now, without getting into the arguments used in the ongoing

thread

> on this topic, let me just say that duality does not exist: it does

> not exist as 'you' exist or as a 'house' does, a 'cold' or even a

> 'famine'.

> So the idea that duality can 'p e r s i s t' - something like a

cold

> can persist - is only an analogy.

> 'Duality per se' does not exist as it is only an idea held

conceivably

> in the mind. That the concept of duality is hard to get rid of is

> understandable [...] but no matter what, as duality is an idea

only,

> it should be easier to get rid of than say, a dead body.

> The concept of duality on its own is not very well understood (let

> alone 'non-duality') especially not by those who fight their duels

> vis-à-vis reality with that word (duality) or even the negation of

> that word (non-duality).

>

> While looking at the world 'zoomed in' so to say, ensuring that one

> sees only two things at a time, it 'a p p e a r s' that opposites

or

> dualities exist, but 'zoomed out' one easily observes that

something

> that what was deemed to be opposite to something else or

considered to

> be a part in a dualist relationship, is only one thing out of a

myriad

> in a multi-dimensional continuum of things.

> In other words, things that appear - when zoomed in - as opposed to

> each other, e.g. left/right, positive/negative, up/down, etc. are -

> when zoomed out - only differing very little from each other. Ergo,

> the more one zooms out, the less a difference between two things

can

> be a reason for those things to be labeled opposites or a

dualistic pair.

> (This is one of the main approaches in the Montessori education

> method. The playful use of especially designed materials help

children

> maintain integrity in full reality and a larger world.

>

>

> The dualist view persists if one keeps a very short view of things

or

> lives, so to say, in a very small world. The dualist view

disappears

> when a larger picture is observed or a view is taken from a wider

> perspective. Ergo, when one applies oneself liberally in larger and

> larger world.

>

> The dualist world is a small one based solely on conditional

> exclusion, the whole world is one of unconditional and unquestioned

> inclusion.

>

> Wim

>

> PS. Loving someone at the exclusion of someone else is conditional

> love... coming from a dualist small view.

 

Namaste,

 

I suppose I should have written, 'the impression of duality', but I

wasn't getting into total semantics.

I shall posit again that no matter how 'non-dualist' one is in mind

and language or in larger view etc, if one still oscillates between

dream/subconscious and awake daily state; Then this impression will

always exist. The root cause of samskaras and vasanas have to be

purified for the organ to be integrated.

 

Consciousness or Prajna seem to take the idea of Non-Perception or

Causal Body, this in turn causes the wrong perception of dream and

awake states. So here we have non perception causing something, and

that non perception being caused by Prajna, which is impossible, so

the only conclusion is ajativada it didn't happen at

all.......ONS..Tony.

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

NonDualPhil , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

wrote:

NonDualPhil , " Wim Borsboom "

<wim_borsboom> wrote:

> Yep! Anna, yep )

> Wim

>

> NonDualPhil , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...>

wrote:

> > Hi Wim,

> >

> > It helps to look at things as an artist:

> >

> > To see an 'object', the object is Seen by seeing the 'object'

AND

> the 'space' surrounding the 'object'. In one fluid, unbroken

movement

> in the act/process of Seeing.

> >

> > Space and Form are necessary in the process

of 'Seeing'. 'Self'

> and 'Other'.

> > This and That, Here and There are necessary to complete this

> infinity of Space and Form, of Emptiness and Fullness. Of Duality

out

> of which 'everyOne' emerges and Non-Duality into which 'everyOne'

> returns...

> >

> > And yes, the only possible " ground of Being " is Love,

the 'glue'

> that allows

> > unconditionally, All that Is-- to Be, AI that-Is-as-it-Is, As

It

> Was, As it will Be. And this Love is the alpha and omega of

> 'existence and non-existence.

> >

> > Anna

 

Namaste A,

 

The question I have with this is that it seems to me to be about

Saguna, and a knower of Saguna Brahman may attain to the highest

heaven or Brahmaloka but not Nirguna..........Sankara in the Brahman

Sutras chapter IV, covers some of this concept.....ONS...Tony.

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

NonDualPhil , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

wrote:

NonDualPhil , " Samadhi Ma " <samaadhi@h...>

wrote:

> NonDualPhil , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

> wrote:

> >

> > NonDualPhil , " Samadhi Ma " <samaadhi@h...>

> > wrote:

> > >> Tony,

> > >

> > > What actually causes duality to persist?, you ask.

> > >

> > > The false belief that the ego-ghost is real perpetuates

duality.

> > > Abandon all ideas that mind/ego is real. Mind/ego do not

exist,

> in

> > > Truth. Pure Being, alone, is Real.

> > >

> > > Duality is ignorance. What is being ignored? The essential

> > Self,

> > > Being, the Truth of ones' Self.

> > >

> > > At any one moment, one is either enquiring into ones' own true

> > Self,

> > > or else one is enquiring into the world. The choice is yours.

> If

> > > you want duality to vanish, then unceasingly enquire into your

> > very

> > > own essence, pure consciousness, bliss. Bliss is your natural

> > > state. Shine as the blazing light of bliss consciousness that

> you

> > > truly are.

> > >

> > > Samadhi Ma

> > > Rural Northern California

> >

> > Namaste,SM,

> >

> > That is true in the Jagrat and waking state, unfortunately there

> is

> > the dream or subconscious state with all our previous

impressions

> > and samskaras. If we didn't visit that state then pure

> intellectual

> > enquiry would suffice. However we don't so a process of sadhana

or

> > purification is required. For there are many samskaras that the

> > conscious mind is unaware of. Bliss is a much misused word. For

> > example it is used for the deep sleep state, when in fact that

> state

> > is actually a state of deepest relaxation. Bliss is something

else

> > altogether and is the last impediment.

> >

> > What you say is alright if it is not restricted to intellectual

> > enquiry only and accompanies some kind of sadhana, bhakti

> practices

> > or whatever.............IMHO...Tony.

> =========================================

> Tony,

>

> Self enquiry is not an intellectual process. It is direct

experience

> of the Self. Intellect is to be abandoned, along with mind/ego.

>

> Self enquiry is to be done in the waking state. When there is

> direct experience of the Self, or Self realization, then all

> conscious states, waking along with the sleep and dream states,

are

> transcended. No need to worry about the vasanas in the dream and

> sleep states, they are incinerated by Self enquiry done in the

> waking state.

>

> Bliss used here refers to the state of 'no sorrow'. Ananda is

> sanskrit for 'no sorrow'. A=no, nanda=sorrow. No sorrow, which is

> the Bliss state.

>

> Samadhi Ma

 

Namaste,IMO,

 

Self Enquiry is a 'feeling' not an intellectual understanding or

mantra.

 

Vasanas have to purified even Ramana subsribes to that, by advising

sadhana.

 

Vasanas are always there in the dream/subconscious state. Just one

vasana, samskara or thought can bring back an avatar or anyone to

rebirth, because just one thought is as big as the entire universal

mahat. True Self Enquiry penetrates all states as a purification

process, but if the subtle contains a non purified vijnanamayakosa

we will be back or perhaps Brahmaloka consciousness.

 

Our oscillation between awake and dream is what causes the illusion

of duality to persist. If these two states are overcome then we rest

awake for our deep sleep state of nescience and non perception is

also overcome.

 

Your description of Bliss is correct as far as the non perception of

the causal body in deep sleep is concerned. Some would take you to

task that the same description fits the concept of Saguna or

Savikalpa.................ONS...Tony.

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

NonDualPhil , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

wrote:

NonDualPhil , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

wrote:

> NonDualPhil , " devianandi " <polansky@m...>

> wrote:

>> >

> > you have something against self-enquiry?

> >

> > anyway, about niroha...babajis definitions are as follows..

> > niroda - control, restraint, suppression, mental control; to

> retain,

> > to hinder, to arrest, to stop, or to block.

> >

> > nirodha chitta - controlled mind

> >

> > nirodha parinama - the mind fluctuating only with the sanskaras

of

> > restraint: the purifying transformation of the mind in a

> controlled

> > state...

> >

> > notice he says the purifying transformation = that looks like

> > progress to me...:-)

> >

> >

> > did you read that sutra i pointed too?

> >

> > specifically: yoga is defined as a method - the practice of

> nirodha

> > (mental control) - by which union (the goal of yoga) is

acheived.

> > Yoga is therefore both the process of nirodha and the

unqualified

> > state of niruddha (the perfection of that process)

>

> Namaste D,

>

> I think the last interpretation of nirodha that I read was a

little

> different from that, and me equating it with 'deep sleep' enhanced

> my misunderstanding, if that is what it is. However if you mean by

> nirodha, nirvana then I can appreciate that. However your

> interpretation still leaves samskaras in restraint but existing.

So

> we still have a mind but in restraint?..........ONS...Tony.

 

Namaste,

 

It seems to me that sutra 1, is talking more about the process then

the final state. Nirodha meaning restrictions at several levels.

 

Ramana mentions nirodha but seems to infer Self Enquiry is more

direct and easier.

 

I try to follow the Self Enquiry and also do some meditation, where

I concentrate at where my nose and lip meet, and this usually puts

me into a state of relaxation or nidra or what-----no memory

anyway...ONS...Tony.

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

NonDualPhil , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

wrote:

NonDualPhil , " devianandi " <polansky@m...>

wrote:

> Namaste,

> >

> > It seems to me that sutra 1, is talking more about the process

then

> > the final state. Nirodha meaning restrictions at several levels.

>

> devi: i'm hoping you mean sutra 2....and honestly, i don't

remember...

> >

> > Ramana mentions nirodha but seems to infer Self Enquiry is more

> > direct and easier.

>

> devi: for me just meditating on the word OM is even more direct

than

> that long phrase *who am I*...but to each their own....

>

>

>

> >

> > I try to follow the Self Enquiry and also do some meditation,

where

> > I concentrate at where my nose and lip meet,

>

> devi: i had to touch myself there to see what it was like...that

made

> me laugh out loud...

>

> and this usually puts

> > me into a state of relaxation or nidra or what-----no memory

> > anyway...ONS...Tony.

>

> devi: well, one last comment...i think where you put your

> concentration is very unusual as i thought it was common knowledge

> that the forehead where the ajna chakra is located is sometimes

called

> the meditator itself....

>

> whats it like for you being around so many people who seem to

think

> they are totally enlightenened? frustrating..you don't believe

> them..what?

 

Namaste D,

 

Yes 1:2 of course.

 

The point is right where the nose joins the upper lip, it is easy to

find for one can observer or feel the breath going in and out.

Alternating nostrils and cooler in one than the other. I got it from

the Buddhists. I don't bother with cakras in that way,Ajna etc, for

they themselves are points of concentration. You could fix your

concentration anywhere as long as it is concentrated. It is just a

preliminary exercise.IMHO.

 

Yes it is amazing to find so many enlightened people who know

everything, and here I am so ignorant

still...hahahahahahh...ONS..Tony.

--- End forwarded message ---