Kundalini and Pranayama

[Guest guest]

Dharma Wayfarer <dharmawayfarer> wrote:

>

> Hello, this is my first post here. I'd have to say I'd concur in

terms of not 'pushing IT' ... as when it is awakens, it pushes of

its own accord which in and of itself is quite an adjustment. If I

may share ... this individual had been a meditator for a number of

years, then stopped all formal practice for almost 15 years. A year

ago he attended an intensive ten day/ten to twelve hours daily

Vipassana meditation retreat to renew practice. Two days into

simple Anapana (meditation following subtle breath - not pranayana)

while seated in half lotus spontaneous and progressive unfoldment

occurred: pulsing/expansion of forehead/pineal, sensations of

extreme cold, facial tremors/twitches, upwards pressure on inside

surface of cranium - (involuntary) straightening of spine, mouth

slowly opening wide - head tilting back, tongue curling pointing to

back of throat, focus shifting to ache in heart region - experience

of undergoing non-physical angioplasty as heart ache expands to

> sensation of solidified mass size of golf ball starting to move

through a garden hose across chest to plexus, up to throat, gastro-

difficulties/pain, with finale of rushing whorling energy

running 'counter-clockwise' (I think) from base of spine up to

crown, constricting and rattling breath with deep squeezing

sensation of upper body ... frequent heart arythmia for months,

awakening one night with sensation of a 'shinai' (bamboo cane)

whacked across shins, attendant emotional sequellae of huge

energetic releases through heart and throat, some laughter but

mostly crying - experience of deep unutterable sadness identified

with 'pain and suffering' of .... (sure not my own stuff),

intensified intuitions later verified with applied kinesiology (a la

David R. Hawkins), all settling down into an ongoing state where the

subtlest in breath awakens whether with eyes open or closed, sitting

or standing at the grocery check-out counter, the energetic flow and

sensations of expansion - most

> prominent in the forehead/crown/entire head, but extending in

circuit through base of spine, to medula to crown and around again.

I sit 1-2 hours daily, meditation tends to 'do me' rather than I do

it' ... sometimes just hanging on and watching the

sensations/energetic expressions which vary in intensity and

pressure. Experiences of intermittent huge expansions of the

heart, and sadness/release of tears continues - equating with loving

kindness/compassion, sympathetic joy or connection with others.

Sorry for going over-long, just not too many opportunities in daily

life to express this amongst beings who may understand and offer

comment of their own experience. I am 52 years old and look forward

to finding a qualified teacher who may guide this experience

appropriately, as the good folks running the vipassana course didn't

seem to be able to offer much advice other than see your Family

Physician to get your heart checked, and to suggest that one just

continues to 'watch' the

> 'sensations' .. which I do .. understanding that it is to be

preferred not to become attached to, or to cultivate sensations or

experiences, rather just let them arise and pass, arise and pass.

That said, after a year of watching, I think it's safe (without

attachment/ego identification) to ask a few questions now ...

comments/suggestions welcomed.

>

> With metta

Namaste,

 

Kundalini is the mind, it is everywhere and everything. What you are

experiencing is a movement of prana, probably cleansing your kosas

in some way. It is a distraction and not necessary for realisation.

K or a purified mind will rise by itself imperceptibly without all

the bells and whistles, if one channels it into japa or some other

form of concentration. K cannot in any way result in liberation or

realisation, so it is not so efficacious to be distracted by these

energies, they belong to illusion. I and many others have had some

experiences, I found they are best ignored unless one wants to

practice siddhis or something. In essence they are in the mind and

imagination.

It seems to me that the more cleansing that needs to be done the

more the activity.......nothing really to boast about hahahaahah.

 

I would just stick to your Vipassana and ignore the

energies....ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitajnana , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

wrote:

>

> Dharma Wayfarer <dharmawayfarer> wrote:

> >

> > Hello, this is my first post here. I'd have to say I'd concur

in

> terms of not 'pushing IT' ... as when it is awakens, it pushes of

> its own accord which in and of itself is quite an adjustment. If

I

> may share ... this individual had been a meditator for a number of

> years, then stopped all formal practice for almost 15 years. A

year

> ago he attended an intensive ten day/ten to twelve hours daily

> Vipassana meditation retreat to renew practice. Two days into

> simple Anapana (meditation following subtle breath - not

pranayana)

> while seated in half lotus spontaneous and progressive unfoldment

> occurred: pulsing/expansion of forehead/pineal, sensations of

> extreme cold, facial tremors/twitches, upwards pressure on inside

> surface of cranium - (involuntary) straightening of spine, mouth

> slowly opening wide - head tilting back, tongue curling pointing

to

> back of throat, focus shifting to ache in heart region -

experience

> of undergoing non-physical angioplasty as heart ache expands to

> > sensation of solidified mass size of golf ball starting to move

> through a garden hose across chest to plexus, up to throat, gastro-

> difficulties/pain, with finale of rushing whorling energy

> running 'counter-clockwise' (I think) from base of spine up to

> crown, constricting and rattling breath with deep squeezing

> sensation of upper body ... frequent heart arythmia for months,

> awakening one night with sensation of a 'shinai' (bamboo cane)

> whacked across shins, attendant emotional sequellae of huge

> energetic releases through heart and throat, some laughter but

> mostly crying - experience of deep unutterable sadness identified

> with 'pain and suffering' of .... (sure not my own stuff),

> intensified intuitions later verified with applied kinesiology (a

la

> David R. Hawkins), all settling down into an ongoing state where

the

> subtlest in breath awakens whether with eyes open or closed,

sitting

> or standing at the grocery check-out counter, the energetic flow

and

> sensations of expansion - most

> > prominent in the forehead/crown/entire head, but extending in

> circuit through base of spine, to medula to crown and around

again.

> I sit 1-2 hours daily, meditation tends to 'do me' rather than I

do

> it' ... sometimes just hanging on and watching the

> sensations/energetic expressions which vary in intensity and

> pressure. Experiences of intermittent huge expansions of the

> heart, and sadness/release of tears continues - equating with

loving

> kindness/compassion, sympathetic joy or connection with others.

> Sorry for going over-long, just not too many opportunities in

daily

> life to express this amongst beings who may understand and offer

> comment of their own experience. I am 52 years old and look

forward

> to finding a qualified teacher who may guide this experience

> appropriately, as the good folks running the vipassana course

didn't

> seem to be able to offer much advice other than see your Family

> Physician to get your heart checked, and to suggest that one just

> continues to 'watch' the

> > 'sensations' .. which I do .. understanding that it is to be

> preferred not to become attached to, or to cultivate sensations or

> experiences, rather just let them arise and pass, arise and pass.

> That said, after a year of watching, I think it's safe (without

> attachment/ego identification) to ask a few questions now ...

> comments/suggestions welcomed.

> >

> > With metta

> Namaste,

>

> Kundalini is the mind, it is everywhere and everything. What you

are

> experiencing is a movement of prana, probably cleansing your kosas

> in some way. It is a distraction and not necessary for realisation.

> K or a purified mind will rise by itself imperceptibly without all

> the bells and whistles, if one channels it into japa or some other

> form of concentration. K cannot in any way result in liberation or

> realisation, so it is not so efficacious to be distracted by these

> energies, they belong to illusion. I and many others have had some

> experiences, I found they are best ignored unless one wants to

> practice siddhis or something. In essence they are in the mind and

> imagination.

> It seems to me that the more cleansing that needs to be done the

> more the activity.......nothing really to boast about hahahaahah.

>

> I would just stick to your Vipassana and ignore the

> energies....ONS..Tony.

 

Namaste,IMHO,

 

First of all most who know me also know that I have had these pranic

experiences commonly, and grossly mistakenly referred to as

Kundalini. I can still observe the movement of energies in pre

meditation, but that is as far as it goes.

 

Kundalini IS the mind and is in the imagination. It doesn't confer

any enlightenment, or realisation. The real K doesn't rise in the

muladhara and rise to the sahasrara. It rises in the 'Heart' and

must return and die there. All else may result in attachment to

energies and perhaps siddhis but that is all.........just rubbish

Ramakrishna would say.

 

Ramana says the true K rises with Self-Enquiry, so does Lakshmana

Swamy and even Sarada Devi said it will rise with Japa imperceptibly.

 

Why people get diverted by this energy distraction I don't know.

Ramana advised his devotees not to practise it as it was unnecessary

and dangerous.

 

Be as you are pages 142 onwards, No mind I am the Self pps 99

onwards.

 

ONS....Tony.

>

[Guest guest]

, Yetibaba@a... wrote:

>

> I don't believe the Kundalini Shakti is something different from

ourselves,

> something we can choose to disregard in favor of a " purer " path ;-)

>

> To me the Great Energy appears to be the basic building block of

our

> thoughts, feelings and physical bodies. The sensory input we

receive about the world

> around us and also the actual physical world around us is the

outcome of

> the hidden activity of Kundalini.

>

> The thing is to realise that there is " something " in us

constantly observing

> this energy - and although we live through the sensations and

information

> the Shakti cooks up for us, there is a deeper level within that

is the silent

> witness, the Self which is unchanging and still.

>

> (whereas the energy is constantly shapeshifting and morphing into

new

> patterns of thought, feeling and action)

>

> While the Kundalini remains dormant, we can't really see these

dual aspects

> of the One reality within ourselves but rather live in a state in

which we

> completely identify with whatever mental, emotional or physical

image the

> energy creates. Once the Shakti is set into motion however, these

images are

> progressively dissolved and eventually the pure state of

consciousness or the

> " Self " emerges as the silent foundation or screen on which the

energy just plays

> out its different patterns.

>

> Seen from that perspective, I certainly believe the awakening of

the

> Kundalini to be an important and necessary step on our spiritual

journey through

> life...

>

> Michael (yet another one ;-) )

 

Namaste,IMHO,

 

" Sri Ramana said; The Self is reached by the search for the origin

of the ego and by diving into the Heart. That is the direct method

of Self-Realisation. One who adopts it need not worry about nadis,

the brain centre-sahasrara, the sushumma, the paranadi, the

kundalini, pranayama or the six centres-cakras. " Be as you are..p

142.

 

It follows on from this that the samadhi of the sahasrara is a

savikalpa samadhi at best, and is in the world of experience and

illusion. In other words it is likely an attachment to illusion in

the form of ecstasy and bliss. All of this being an impediment and

not resulting in Moksha.

 

The word Sakti is the Saguna Brahman the energy is actually called

Prana, in all its modes. Within illusion there is only prana and

karma, 'God/Goddess' in any form never interferes and is always ever

the witness or Sakshin.

 

One has to cleanse one's own Buddhi, the mind sometimes does this

perceptibly and sometimes imperceptibly. A purified mind is true

Kundalini not experiencing ecstasies of lower samadhis. Kundalini or

purified mind will only ever rise to the level of awareness of the

participant, and in most cases the prana returns to its natural

level of action.

 

As the Buddha said the last impediment is Bliss.....ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitajnana , " Tony OClery " <aoclery>

wrote:

>

> , Yetibaba@a... wrote:

> >

> > I don't believe the Kundalini Shakti is something different from

> ourselves,

> > something we can choose to disregard in favor of a " purer "

path ;-)

> >

> > To me the Great Energy appears to be the basic building block of

> our

> > thoughts, feelings and physical bodies. The sensory input we

> receive about the world

> > around us and also the actual physical world around us is the

> outcome of

> > the hidden activity of Kundalini.

> >

> > The thing is to realise that there is " something " in us

> constantly observing

> > this energy - and although we live through the sensations and

> information

> > the Shakti cooks up for us, there is a deeper level within that

> is the silent

> > witness, the Self which is unchanging and still.

> >

> > (whereas the energy is constantly shapeshifting and morphing

into

> new

> > patterns of thought, feeling and action)

> >

> > While the Kundalini remains dormant, we can't really see these

> dual aspects

> > of the One reality within ourselves but rather live in a state

in

> which we

> > completely identify with whatever mental, emotional or physical

> image the

> > energy creates. Once the Shakti is set into motion however,

these

> images are

> > progressively dissolved and eventually the pure state of

> consciousness or the

> > " Self " emerges as the silent foundation or screen on which the

> energy just plays

> > out its different patterns.

> >

> > Seen from that perspective, I certainly believe the awakening of

> the

> > Kundalini to be an important and necessary step on our spiritual

> journey through

> > life...

> >

> > Michael (yet another one ;-) )

>

> Namaste,IMHO,

>

> " Sri Ramana said; The Self is reached by the search for the origin

> of the ego and by diving into the Heart. That is the direct method

> of Self-Realisation. One who adopts it need not worry about nadis,

> the brain centre-sahasrara, the sushumma, the paranadi, the

> kundalini, pranayama or the six centres-cakras. " Be as you are..p

> 142.

>

> It follows on from this that the samadhi of the sahasrara is a

> savikalpa samadhi at best, and is in the world of experience and

> illusion. In other words it is likely an attachment to illusion in

> the form of ecstasy and bliss. All of this being an impediment and

> not resulting in Moksha.

>

> The word Sakti is the Saguna Brahman the energy is actually called

> Prana, in all its modes. Within illusion there is only prana and

> karma, 'God/Goddess' in any form never interferes and is always

ever

> the witness or Sakshin.

>

> One has to cleanse one's own Buddhi, the mind sometimes does this

> perceptibly and sometimes imperceptibly. A purified mind is true

> Kundalini not experiencing ecstasies of lower samadhis. Kundalini

or

> purified mind will only ever rise to the level of awareness of the

> participant, and in most cases the prana returns to its natural

> level of action.

>

> As the Buddha said the last impediment is Bliss.....ONS...Tony.

>

 

> Hello!

>

> The direct method to Self-Realisation appears to be deceptively

simple, but

> in practice, at least to me, there are some aspects that render

it very

> difficult indeed!

>

> As you say, the Buddhi or inner mind-space needs to be purified in

order for

> the Self to cast off the shackles of all the patterns and images

that create

> the illusion of separateness and bind it into identifying with

matter.

>

> For stubborn and quite deluded and spiritually blind persons like

myself

> however, no amount of asking myself " who am I " could have removed

all those

> blinders and gross misperceptions !

>

> So, although I never went looking for it, the awakened Kundalini

Shakti came

> to me and began doing the job for me instead - and I can affirm

with some

> certainty that whatever insight into the nature of reality, the

Self and such

> that I may have, is due mainly - or even exclusively - to her

activity over

> the years.

>

> And this really is the great thing about of the awakened Shakti

IMO, it

> slowly but gradually -and above all, automatically - dissolves

the ego-structure

> and reveals the Self that was always there, but remained hidden.

>

> It also seems to open one up to an intuitive and direct

understanding of how

> " things really are " and this is very comforting and valuable.

>

> I also do believe Kundalini-awakening is the way Nature has

created for

> humans to experience spiritual evolution without too much

meddling and

> interfering on the part of the human him/herself.

>

> One could even argue that the Shakti will eventually awaken in

each and

> every one of us when the time is right - and that indeed this is

a necessary

> step in evolution for a complete liberation from the prison of

matter. (Some

> mystical traditions claim this)

>

>

> Superficially there may appear to be a contradiction to the pure

Advaitin

> teaching of Sri Ramana, but in reality it isn't so, IMHO.

>

> Ramana goes straight to the point and declares: we are all the

eternal Self

> - and the world and our usual self-concepts are of impermanent

and

> illusional nature, based on the working of the mind.

>

> This isn't so hard to grasp conceptionally, but in practice,

overcoming the

> inherent " non-spiritualness " of body and mind in order to really

live in the

> Self isn't quite so easy.

>

> ( LOL! I know a little bit about all of that ;-) - and all the

ascetic

> tradtions of the world throughout history bear witness of this

struggle to

> overcome the patterns and limitations within ourselves.

>

> One could perhaps say that by awakening the Kundalini, Nature

provides us

> with the necassary tool to understand and purify ourselves

sufficiently for

> Self-Knowledge.

>

>

>

> Anyway, the " preoccupation " with chakras and nadis and so on,

also seem to

> happen spontaneously as the kundalini begins to move around. I

for myself just

> see it as a kind of expanded self-knowledge and exploration in

order to

> better understand the physical and psychological vehicles we are

bound to within

> manifest reality. Interesting and useful, but in the end it's

still just the

> play of energy...

>

> It's a bit like having an old beat up car and getting to work on

it, taking

> it apart, finding out the carburettors need cleaning and the oil

has to be

> changed making sure there's gas in the tank and learning all about

ignition

> points etc.

>

> (Now that's a stupid and not very elegant analogy, I know...LOL ;-

)

>

>

> The secondary aspects such as bliss ( more like loads and loads of

problems

> in my case LOL!), siddhis and whatever, are just that, phenomena,

created by

> the Shakti, just like hunger or watching a sunset or scratching

the back of

> the cat. Nothing extraordinary, but rather just another facette of

life and

> its endless possibilities.

>

> (Isn't it always the mind with its preconceived notions that keeps

telling

> us " This is spiritual and that is not " , " This is what book " x " or

guru " y " says

> is right, so everything else is somehow " not right " etc. - when

in fact

> EVERYTHING has its place and is basically perfectly alright once

the mind just

> shuts up ;-) )

>

> Indeed it seems to me as if the end result and the real goal of

the awakened

> Kundalini is the state where Self just sits quietly observing all

> manifestations and phenomena and clearly sensing everything to be

just a projection out

> of Itself.

>

> Maybe - as you have hinted at before in statements such as "

Nothing ever

> happened " - there are indeed further and deeper states.

>

> Not just the " normal " (LOL!!) Samadhi of absolutely pure

consciousness,

> without any sensation of manifestation/energy/shakti whatsoever -

but rather a

> state in which really EVERYTHING turns out to be not only an

illusion (as in a

> table seeming to be a solid object, but in reality being

particles of energy

> swirling about in what is largely emptiness in time/space) - but

actually

> never having even APPEARED to exist.

>

> It boggles the mind - and although I can somehow picture that

state

> intellectually and intuitively, it still doesn't really make sense

to me. However

> seeing that humans are limited in perception by design, it is

well conceivable

> that such a consciousness may truly be the real end of all and

the ultimate

> and final goal...

>

> Who can really tell? Maybe it's best just to wait and find out?

>

>

> Regards

>

> Michael

 

Namaste M,

 

As you notice I don't deny Kundalini but I do take to task the term

and the interpretation that's all.

 

For me Sakti is the Saguna Brahman and her power is Prana, moved by

karma. So these movements in the nadis are actually Prana not Sakti,

per se, for She/Sakti is the witness or Sakshin.

 

I have noticed an undue attachment and fascination with 'Kundalini'

and this is due in part to the fascination of energy by the Ego.

 

People like the idea of experiencing Realisation and the way there;

it is much more fun than anything else. They can measure their

progress so to speak and 'own' their experiences in descending and

ascending orders.

 

What people think is the Sakti working in them is actually their

inner mind cleansing the kosas, with prana. Some of it is dramatic

and some isn't. 'God' in any description is a witness to 'creation'

so doesn't partake, in K rising or anything else. K rising is due to

Prarabda Karma only, and is the person's own mind.

 

As is evidenced by Ramana, Lakshmana Swami, Sri Sarada Devi and

others this can be done imperceptibly by Japa and Self

Enquiry, 'experiencing' K isn't necessary and doesn't actually

result in Moksha anyway.

 

As you say everything is illusion and I am a believer in Ajati-Vada

but as Sankara says, it is real enough whilst one is in it.

 

Who am I ? is an easy sadhana but it must be accompanied with a

purification of the Buddhi, not just verbal non dualism. Who am I is

searching for a condition or feeling not an answer.

 

In the end result K Is the mind so is Illusion, and the mother of

delusion, for nothing ever really happened at all.........ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

> It follows on from this that the samadhi of the sahasrara is a

> savikalpa samadhi at best, and is in the world of experience

and illusion. In other words it is likely an attachment to illusion in

the form of ecstasy and bliss. All of this being an impediment

and not resulting in Moksha.

 

G: that is not what takes place at the Sahasrara --- Sarvikalpa

happens way Before it reaches there ...... one Can and Does

go into a Full Nirvikalpa Samadhi and if the work has been done

correctly then a Nirvikalpa Sahaja remains......

 

yes the Bliss is a state that one leaves behind....

 

please don't make assumptions on a path which you have not

traveled... - my path was through kundalini and so speak from

the direct cognition of what takes place versus not.....

 

Sarvikalpa happens early in the process.... it is by no means

the end ......

 

maha shanti om

0

[Guest guest]

advaitajnana , " G " <crystalkundalini@h...>

wrote:

>

>

> > It follows on from this that the samadhi of the sahasrara is a

> > savikalpa samadhi at best, and is in the world of experience

> and illusion. In other words it is likely an attachment to

illusion in

> the form of ecstasy and bliss. All of this being an impediment

> and not resulting in Moksha.

>

> G: that is not what takes place at the Sahasrara --- Sarvikalpa

> happens way Before it reaches there ...... one Can and Does

> go into a Full Nirvikalpa Samadhi and if the work has been done

> correctly then a Nirvikalpa Sahaja remains......

>

> yes the Bliss is a state that one leaves behind....

>

> please don't make assumptions on a path which you have not

> traveled... - my path was through kundalini and so speak from

> the direct cognition of what takes place versus not.....

>

> Sarvikalpa happens early in the process.... it is by no

means

> the end ......

>

> maha shanti om

> 0

>

Namaste,

 

Thank you for your input but you don't really know what I have

experienced and not experienced.

 

Nirvikalpa can only happen in the Heart not at the Sahasrara as

Ramana points out.....ONS...Tony.