It is interesting this had to be forwarded--veges etc

November 27, 2005

Namaste,

They don't come on here for they need an audience other than respond

to me, yet say I am an arrogant preacher etc.....Tony.

>

> In a message dated 11/27/2005 9:29:02 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> aoclery writes:

>

> Zenbob with his verbal non dualism, vndism, is doing a good job

of

> mental gymnastics again, mixing his apples and oranges all up to

> preserve his desire to eat meat and ignore the suffering, of the

> animal.

>

> Tony,

>

> I have no problem with directly discussing your issues,

whatsoever, but you

> have avoided answering any of my questions put to you. That is

avoidance,

> too. Let me share something with you, before you also judge me

in your wide

> net of generalization. I have gone to ashrams, I have been a

vegetarian for

> periods of time...I desired to be so, for all of the reasons that

you so

> proudly (and that is the problem here) state. I love animals, I

raise them for the

> pleasure of their company -- not for slaughter...or did you not

bother to

> read that reply? I have brought back a healthy wild bird

population to this

> area that was totally frightened away because the local residents

were shooting

> at them constantly. I worked for five years ceaselessly to

protect riparian

> habitats for raptors and other wild birds and now, I can say,

that these

> efforts have paid off, quite magnificently. My acreage is one of

the few areas

> in all of the western US where Imperial woodpeckers live and

breed

> peacefully, and flourish. But we do have death and slaughter

here Tony. How and why?

> Who could be so spiritually evil as to kill another living

creature for

> their food? Raccoons, opossums, coyote and even puma frequent

these areas and

> kill my goats, chickens, geese and even have attacked and killed

neighbor dogs

> and Llamas.

>

> Would you kill a puma to save a goat? To save a child? To save

yourself,

> Tony? Its a difficult real world decision, but if you love your

flock, your

> family and your own existence, you learn to fight to protect

these things, and

> sometimes you have to do terrible things and hope that the

universe forgives

> and understands. After all, the predator just wanted to eat, and

my goats,

> birds, children and I just wanted not to be eaten. There is no

other ethical

> or moral issue, no other higher spiritual nature to that struggle.

>

> Finally, Tony, I found that I could not remain healthy eating

just a

> vegetarian diet, I cannot digest soy products unless they are

ferments--many people

> cannot. In order to maintain good muscle tone and not get weak

and also to

> gain excess weight, I found that meat...fish, chicken and some

beef in

> moderation gave me the best balance nutritionally. Efforts to

cut back or

> substitute non-meat sources simply do not work for me. I am

agile for a 225 pound 5

> foot ten inch tall male, quick enough to catch goats, sheep and

other wild

> animals that leaner, younger people in the area cannot do. I can

hold an

> adult Emu completely still by gripping its powerful legs in one

hand, while

> placing a bag over its head to calm it down, so that it can be

safely transported

> without injury.

>

> Strength and agility are necessary when one works in ranch type

environment,

> and although you think that an aspirant on a vegan diet in an

ashram

> meditating and singing is far and away further along some

spiritual path than the

> cowboy who sits under the stars playing his guitar and grooming

his horse

> ...well, I really don't know if that is true, and God Save Me

from ever thinking

> that I know the answer to that.

>

> Our complaint here Tony is that you keep setting yourself up as

judge and

> jury, when there is no judge, there is no jury, there is only

your own choice,

> my own choice and to each his or her own.

> Your comments violate the spirit of good etiquette, and although

we all

> enjoy a little cage rattling from time to time, your repeated

comments in this

> same attitude are wearisome and tactless. It is one thing to

comment on your

> own choices in life, good or bad, and we all know that all of us

have made

> mistakes and are imperfect, but you don't do this- you keep

decrying the

> practices of others and providing completely erroneous analysis

of what you believe

> their motives and actions mean or what consequences they lead to.

>

> You don't know. We don't know. Everyone should cultivate

compassion and

> kindness in their daily lives. No one is arguing with you on

this obvious

> point. No one has called for the daily torture of innocent

animals, plants or

> people. No one is arguing that the torture of prisoners in

secret US camps is

> a fine thing, in fact, a wonderful thing that should be expanded

because of

> the good it accomplishes!

>

> Who do you take us all for, Tony? We are not idiots, we are not

cruel

> people, we are not dense, and we are not involved in this group

to be lectured by

> someone such as yourself who lives in some high-minded delusion

of spiritual

> superiority. We are interested in good ideas, wisdom, elevating

the spirit

> through discourse, discussion and humor. We like to come here to

dip our cup

> into the spiritual reservoir that is this Satsangh, to come away

refreshed,

> a smile upon our faces, new clarity in our minds, and perhaps the

still

> shimmering goodness of our drink to pass this cup among others so

that they too

> might be refreshed and healed.

>

> I usually try to avoid bringing the ugly realities of the outside

world into

> this place, Tony, because this is not the purpose of this place.

I

> apologize for needing to express some of that in this post, and I

beg the forgiveness

> and understanding of the other members.

>

> Peace,

>

> Namaste,

>

> Zenbob

Namaste,

This is just another essay in the vein of 'cognitive dissonance

carne', carne meaning meat and meat eating.

Sure in Ahimsa one can protect, and defend. Animals eat each other

yes that is their Dharma it is not our dharma to eat and kill for

meat. We are not biologically set up for meat eating, even you can

find an alternative.

Killing to satisfy one's desire is different from killing in defence

as a last resort.

I have not seen any Ramana literature extolling meat eating only

Ahimsa.

Being humble in the face of what is Adharmic is not humility but a

violation of Ahimsa itself. Rama and Krishna so very well

demonstrated my point, so did Jesus whipping the money lenders.

So I haven't change my opinion that your posts and stand

are 'Cognitive Dissonance Carne'.......

The last world champion weight lifter is a vegetarian by the way.

There are ways and means to get protein other than soy.

I admire that you have helped in the introduction of animals.

Let us not forget that both or all the ancient scriptures Bible,

Bagavatha etc tell us that we are descended from 'Astral' beings

that took incarnation here, we really didn't start out as animals,

althought the bodies may. So the killing of animals for food doesn't

apply to us. Although for some primitives there is no

choice....ONS..Tony.

November 28, 2005

Tony dear,

Let go!

Sachin

----

Tony OClery

11/28/05 02:19:07

advaitajnana

It is interesting this had to be forwarded--veges etc

Namaste,They don't come on here for they need an audience other than respond to me, yet say I am an arrogant preacher etc.....Tony.> > In a message dated 11/27/2005 9:29:02 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > aoclery writes:> > Zenbob with his verbal non dualism, vndism, is doing a good job of > mental gymnastics again, mixing his apples and oranges all up to > preserve his desire to eat meat and ignore the suffering, of the > animal. > > > > Tony,> > I have no problem with directly discussing your issues, whatsoever, but you > have avoided answering any of my questions put to you. That is avoidance, > too. Let me share something with you, before you also judge me in your wide > net of generalization. I have gone to ashrams, I have been a vegetarian for > periods of time...I desired to be so, for all of the reasons that you so > proudly (and that is the problem here) state. I love animals, I raise them for the > pleasure of their company -- not for slaughter...or did you not bother to > read that reply? I have brought back a healthy wild bird population to this > area that was totally frightened away because the local residents were shooting > at them constantly. I worked for five years ceaselessly to protect riparian > habitats for raptors and other wild birds and now, I can say, that these > efforts have paid off, quite magnificently. My acreage is one of the few areas > in all of the western US where Imperial woodpeckers live and breed > peacefully, and flourish. But we do have death and slaughter here Tony. How and why? > Who could be so spiritually evil as to kill another living creature for > their food? Raccoons, opossums, coyote and even puma frequent these areas and > kill my goats, chickens, geese and even have attacked and killed neighbor dogs > and Llamas. > > Would you kill a puma to save a goat? To save a child? To save yourself, > Tony? Its a difficult real world decision, but if you love your flock, your > family and your own existence, you learn to fight to protect these things, and > sometimes you have to do terrible things and hope that the universe forgives > and understands. After all, the predator just wanted to eat, and my goats, > birds, children and I just wanted not to be eaten. There is no other ethical > or moral issue, no other higher spiritual nature to that struggle.> > Finally, Tony, I found that I could not remain healthy eating just a > vegetarian diet, I cannot digest soy products unless they are ferments--many people > cannot. In order to maintain good muscle tone and not get weak and also to > gain excess weight, I found that meat...fish, chicken and some beef in > moderation gave me the best balance nutritionally. Efforts to cut back or > substitute non-meat sources simply do not work for me. I am agile for a 225 pound 5 > foot ten inch tall male, quick enough to catch goats, sheep and other wild > animals that leaner, younger people in the area cannot do. I can hold an > adult Emu completely still by gripping its powerful legs in one hand, while > placing a bag over its head to calm it down, so that it can be safely transported > without injury. > > Strength and agility are necessary when one works in ranch type environment, > and although you think that an aspirant on a vegan diet in an ashram > meditating and singing is far and away further along some spiritual path than the > cowboy who sits under the stars playing his guitar and grooming his horse> ...well, I really don't know if that is true, and God Save Me from ever thinking > that I know the answer to that.> > Our complaint here Tony is that you keep setting yourself up as judge and > jury, when there is no judge, there is no jury, there is only your own choice, > my own choice and to each his or her own.> Your comments violate the spirit of good etiquette, and although we all > enjoy a little cage rattling from time to time, your repeated comments in this > same attitude are wearisome and tactless. It is one thing to comment on your > own choices in life, good or bad, and we all know that all of us have made > mistakes and are imperfect, but you don't do this- you keep decrying the > practices of others and providing completely erroneous analysis of what you believe > their motives and actions mean or what consequences they lead to.> > You don't know. We don't know. Everyone should cultivate compassion and > kindness in their daily lives. No one is arguing with you on this obvious > point. No one has called for the daily torture of innocent animals, plants or > people. No one is arguing that the torture of prisoners in secret US camps is > a fine thing, in fact, a wonderful thing that should be expanded because of > the good it accomplishes! > > Who do you take us all for, Tony? We are not idiots, we are not cruel > people, we are not dense, and we are not involved in this group to be lectured by > someone such as yourself who lives in some high-minded delusion of spiritual > superiority. We are interested in good ideas, wisdom, elevating the spirit > through discourse, discussion and humor. We like to come here to dip our cup > into the spiritual reservoir that is this Satsangh, to come away refreshed, > a smile upon our faces, new clarity in our minds, and perhaps the still > shimmering goodness of our drink to pass this cup among others so that they too > might be refreshed and healed.> > I usually try to avoid bringing the ugly realities of the outside world into > this place, Tony, because this is not the purpose of this place. I > apologize for needing to express some of that in this post, and I beg the forgiveness > and understanding of the other members.> > Peace,> > Namaste,> > Zenbob Namaste,This is just another essay in the vein of 'cognitive dissonance carne', carne meaning meat and meat eating.Sure in Ahimsa one can protect, and defend. Animals eat each other yes that is their Dharma it is not our dharma to eat and kill for meat. We are not biologically set up for meat eating, even you can find an alternative.Killing to satisfy one's desire is different from killing in defence as a last resort.I have not seen any Ramana literature extolling meat eating only Ahimsa.Being humble in the face of what is Adharmic is not humility but a violation of Ahimsa itself. Rama and Krishna so very well demonstrated my point, so did Jesus whipping the money lenders.So I haven't change my opinion that your posts and stand are 'Cognitive Dissonance Carne'.......The last world champion weight lifter is a vegetarian by the way. There are ways and means to get protein other than soy.I admire that you have helped in the introduction of animals.Let us not forget that both or all the ancient scriptures Bible, Bagavatha etc tell us that we are descended from 'Astral' beings that took incarnation here, we really didn't start out as animals, althought the bodies may. So the killing of animals for food doesn't apply to us. Although for some primitives there is no choice....ONS..Tony.