Guest guest Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 advaitin , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite@> wrote: > > <<< Just to continue; > IMHO, The 'I' believing the world exists while it sleeps is an > attachment a grasping mechanism. For the 'I' identifies strongly > with the world and is reinforced in its belief of its own existence. > By believing that which it is attached to exists in deep sleep. This > is an anchor for the ego and an impediment to realisation. For it is > the mind believing in the mind instead of using a thorn to remove a > thorn.............ONS...Tony.>>> > > Thank you, Tony, but the purpose of discussing this topic (at least from my > point of view) is to understand the logic of the prakriyA, not to use it to > undermine the ego. And I think that the two go hand in hand to a large > degree. All of these various methods exist in order to help the mind remove > the ignorance (or the thorn to remove the thorn if you like) but unless we > understand the method correctly, we may be trying to remove the thorn with a > sledgehammer! > > Best wishes, > > Dennis Namaste Dennis-ji, Perhaps you are right, but one doesn't have to understand the molecular structure of water to get out of the swimming pool. One just climbs out with indifference to the water..'Who am I', is stepping out...........ONS..Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 advaitin , " subrahmanian_v " <subrahmanian_v wrote: advaitin , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > Namaste Dennis-ji, > > Perhaps you are right, but one doesn't have to understand the > molecular structure of water to get out of the swimming pool. One > just climbs out with indifference to the water..'Who am I', is > stepping out...........ONS..Tony. Namaste Tony ji, Your above post is nice indeed. In my understanding, 'Who am I' is a very pithy instruction, profound to the core that i would boldly say that the entire literature available in the Upanishadic lore and that available under the Sri Ramanasram umbrella is to help one understand that all-important teaching 'Who am I'. It is like the Mahavakya for example, the Tat tvam asi. Just three words. The whole of the prasthana traya bhashya has come to expound the meaning of those three words. An attempt to implement the 'Who am I' teaching will result in the aspirant invariably walking the paths of the triad of states and the pancha koshas. It is inescapable. It is not without this understanding that the Upanishads gave out that volume of teaching and the Acharyas laboured to expound the same. Just three small words!! And as a matter of fact, the need to and the mode of being indifferent to the 'swimming pool' also is required to be instructed; it does not come of its own. If it appears to have come of its own, the implication is that the foundation work has been undertaken much earlier and what is now visible is just the 'ready' state. Warm regards, subbu > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2006 Report Share Posted May 27, 2006 , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: @, " Durga " <durgaji108@> wrote: > Namaste Dennis, > > While I have not followed all of the posts of this > thread, it is my understanding that the purpose of > the avasthatraya sakshi prakriya is to point out > that the Self is the 'witness' of the mind in all > three states of mental experience, waking, dream > and deep sleep. > > What is the purpose of that? To show that the Self > that I am is present to all experience. Namaste, Sakshin ultimately eliminates the concept of an Iswara 'doing' anything also, by showing the three states are not what they appear but not happening at all for there is no time and time is required for this theory. So Iswara cannot be the Sakshin if Iswarea acts...It brings one back again to Ajativada...........ONS..Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2006 Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 advaitin , " subrahmanian_v " <subrahmanian_v wrote: advaitin , " Durga " <durgaji108@> wrote: > > Avastha triya sakshi Namaste Durga ji and Dennis ji, In response to Sri Deenis ji's latest post resolving to 'drop the matter' for the time being, and in response to some of Durga Maata's observations in this below mentioned post, as a last attempt to clarify, i thought i will provide some replies. I shall adopt the method of placing my responses within , courtesy Sri Madathilji. > > > advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite@> wrote: > > > > Namaste Durga, > I am reproducing the actual sentence that > > triggered the question about the bomb: > > > > " Thus because in the dream the waking world does not exist at all, > because > > in the deep sleep neither the waking and dream states nor their > respective > > worlds exist at all, it becomes evident that apart from the states > or devoid > > of the states a separate world does not exist at all; what is called > 'the > > world' or the phenomenon of the world is nothing but an appearance > that is > > seen or observed within a state alone. " (P. 438 Adyhatma Prakasha > Karyalaya, > > 1986.) > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Dennis [ The above quote does not pose any problem to me as it is in accordance with the position of Advaita elaborately discussed in the Mandukya kaarikas. I would refer one to peruse the portions under the Chapter II (vaitathya prakaranam) and the chapter III (Advaita prakaranam) of the Mandukya Karikas along with Acharya Shankara's commentary to get a clear understanding.] > > Namaste Dennis, > > He seems to be saying that the emperical > waking world (or the creation) is the creation > of the individual's mind in the waking state, and > I would say that is not true. > > The individual's mind passes through the three mental states > waking, dream, and deep sleep, but from the POV of Ishwara > those three states are taking place within the creation, > within time and space, within duality, while the Self > is that which is untouched by, and illumines it all. > > The world which is perceived in the waking state through > the awake mind of the individual is not a creation of that > individual's mind (if this indeed is what Mr. Gangoli is > putting forth). (This was discussed previously in > another thread). > > The world which the individual's mind perceives in > the waking state is Ishwara's world. It is empirical > reality and the individual's mind is part to the whole. > > In fact, IMO the individual's mind is part to the whole > in all states, although the perceptions are different > in the different states. All of duality takes place > within, and according to, the laws of Ishwara, which > would include the three mental states, waking, > dream and deep sleep which the individual's mind > passes through each day. [Madam, kindly wait till your Vedanta teacher takes up the Mandukya Upanishad and the Kaarikaas for a detailed exposition. Every one of the above views expressed above will find a 'shocking'rebuttal therein. If you can't wait till then, pl. obtain your teacher's permission and go ahead reading the above portions indicated by me. Only thing is, take a good translation.] > > Perhaps Mr. Gangolli is very scholarly (and perhaps > he is correct in what he has said), or perhaps he has > some theories of his own, which aren't exactly in > keeping with the teachings of Vedanta. I don't know. > (And of course, perhaps I am wrong). > > There is one other point which I wanted to address. > Somewhere else in this thread I believe you put forth > that Mr. Gangolli holds that there is a deep sleep > ahamkara. > > It is my understanding that there is no deep sleep > ahamkara. In order to have a deep sleep ahamkara > the mind would need to be able to make a comment such as, > " I am deep sleeping, " which is not the case in the deep > sleep state. > > In deep sleep the mind is resolved. There are no thoughts, > no ahamkara (which is itself a thought). So, IMO if > Mr. Gangolli has concluded that there is a deep sleep ahamkara > this conclusion of his is also not correct. [Defining the sleep state, and naming the sleeper consciousness as the Praajna, the Mandukya Upanishad gives the characteristics of the sleeper consciousness both in the micro and macro cosmic aspects. Pl. go thro the same; in the Kaarika portion Sri Gaudapadacharya writes: Praajna does not comprehend anything - neither himself nor others, neither truth nor falsehood... The 'not knowing or comprehending anything' is due to the situation in which praajna is placed there. Nevertheless it is he who in the waking, now called the vishwa, recollects the sleep experience as 'i did not know anything then and i slept well'. In order to say this, apart from his having been in existence then, he should also have experienced the 'not knowing' and the joy of sleep. It is not that the ahamkaara is non-existent then. Each of the three, the waker, the dreamer and the sleeper consciousness, although one only, assume different roles. They are not devoid of their basic ahankaara then. The Panchadasi chapter 11 clarifies that in the sleep state, which is where the anandamayakosha exists predominantly, the ignorance pertaining to the sleep state and the joy of that state are experienced by the anandamayakosha I through the peculiar vritti, mode of mind, called 'avidya vritti'. While any comprehension requires a buddhi vritti, since the vijnanamayakosha which signifies the buddhi is in a resolved state, the comprehension in the sleep state is achieved through the avidya vritti. The anadamayakosha experiences the sleep state and upon waking the vijnanamayakosha gives expression to it. It should not be asked: how is this possible while you say that the vijnanamayakosha is resolved then? The reply is: It should not be forgotten that the entire manas, mind, consists of the vijnanamaya and the anandamaya and the manomaya koshas. It is only the two aspects of it that are resolved in sleep while the one, anandamayakosha, remains in sleep. It is again not to be forgotten that for the mind to grasp anything there has to be the reflection of the Atman, the chaitanyam, in it. Thus, we have the anandamayakosha aspect of the mind containing the reflection of ATman in it available in deep sleep and this grasps the experience there. The long and short of the above explanation is: The ahankaara is not totally resolved in sleep state. This much is, in brief, the adhyaropa portion. The exclusivess of each of the states stems from the seventh mantra, the apavaada portion, of the Mandukyopanishad which negates the wakerhood, the dreamerhood and the sleeperhood of ATman. The entire II chapter of the Mandukya Karika is an explanation of one word 'prapanchopashamam'( the Atman being devoid of the entire world, in truth) contained in that mantra. The entire III chapter is a delineation of another vital word 'Advaitam' of that mantra. In conclusion, if one has the background of the Mandukya Upanishad, the book under reference, by Sri Gangolli, could be appreciated best. This is just my wild guess or fond hope; i have not seen or heard of that book. Many Pranams and warm regards to both of you. I appreciate the sincerety of Dennis ji in seriously pursuing this matter. He has taken the pains to procure the book and read it through. That is remarkable.] subbu > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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